Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

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Re: Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:44 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:00 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:14 pm

Don't you just love the "hasn't lived up to his draft pedigree" statement? Or the incredibly speculative "Vikings likely have no real plans of extending Waynes' contract" comment? What bunch of uneducated drivel.

The team may be shopping him, but I seriously doubt they're sour on him. We've only got $10 million in cap space, and Waynes has been a known potential cap casualty. But if he's gone, that's precisely the reason why -- the need for cap space, and our horrendous situation with the offensive line.
He hasn't lived up to his pedigree. He was the 11th overall pick and has been good the past two seasons, but not 11th overall good. Bad value for that spot. Same with Barr at 9.
Just because you’re not an all pro doesn’t mean it was bad value. He’s an elite tackler with above average cover skills. I take that any day at 11 if we needed a CB.
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Re: Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:10 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:44 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:00 pm

He hasn't lived up to his pedigree. He was the 11th overall pick and has been good the past two seasons, but not 11th overall good. Bad value for that spot. Same with Barr at 9.
Just because you’re not an all pro doesn’t mean it was bad value. He’s an elite tackler with above average cover skills. I take that any day at 11 if we needed a CB.
2 years of starting from an above average CB is not good value at 11.
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Re: Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:57 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:00 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:14 pm

Don't you just love the "hasn't lived up to his draft pedigree" statement? Or the incredibly speculative "Vikings likely have no real plans of extending Waynes' contract" comment? What bunch of uneducated drivel.

The team may be shopping him, but I seriously doubt they're sour on him. We've only got $10 million in cap space, and Waynes has been a known potential cap casualty. But if he's gone, that's precisely the reason why -- the need for cap space, and our horrendous situation with the offensive line.
He hasn't lived up to his pedigree. He was the 11th overall pick and has been good the past two seasons, but not 11th overall good. Bad value for that spot. Same with Barr at 9.
So you think second contracts ought to be based on what they were paid with their first?

Let's reverse that logic. By your reasoning, Adam Thielen ought to be thrilled with $1 million a year because, after all, he wasn't even drafted.

"Bad value for the spot" doesn't apply to a guy going into his fifth year. You pay (or don't pay) a guy based on the player he is right now, not what fans thought he should be coming out of college.

And for your information, just because you say Waynes is "average" doesn't make it so. Likewise, the opinions of talking heads or PFF doesn't matter, either. The only opinions that matter are those of Mike Zimmer, George Edwards and Rick Spielman.
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Re: Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:37 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:10 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:44 am


Just because you’re not an all pro doesn’t mean it was bad value. He’s an elite tackler with above average cover skills. I take that any day at 11 if we needed a CB.
2 years of starting from an above average CB is not good value at 11.
Dude what? He's been starting for about 2.5 years now, and like I said, has became an elite tackler and above average cover guy. Not sure how that means it's not good value. He solidified our other CB spot. Just because he doesnt get all the attention like Rhodes doesnt mean he cant handle #1 duties. Any time Rhodes has been out Waynes has done a great job holding his own. But according to you, you're practically saying that if he's not a shutdown CB for us at 11, that's not a good pick? I'm confused. :confused:
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Re: Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:41 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:57 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:00 pm

He hasn't lived up to his pedigree. He was the 11th overall pick and has been good the past two seasons, but not 11th overall good. Bad value for that spot. Same with Barr at 9.
So you think second contracts ought to be based on what they were paid with their first?

Let's reverse that logic. By your reasoning, Adam Thielen ought to be thrilled with $1 million a year because, after all, he wasn't even drafted.

"Bad value for the spot" doesn't apply to a guy going into his fifth year. You pay (or don't pay) a guy based on the player he is right now, not what fans thought he should be coming out of college.

And for your information, just because you say Waynes is "average" doesn't make it so. Likewise, the opinions of talking heads or PFF doesn't matter, either. The only opinions that matter are those of Mike Zimmer, George Edwards and Rick Spielman.
Agreed and Waynes is much better than "average". And I can tell you that our staff feels the same way. There are so many rookies coming out of college that hardly touch the field as a rookie. Top pick or not. That literally means nothing. He developed and he learned under Zim and has become a very solid CB for us. That is 100% good value. He did what a draft pick is suppose to do. learn and develop into a good starter for their team. He did exactly that.
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Re: Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:46 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:41 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:57 am

So you think second contracts ought to be based on what they were paid with their first?

Let's reverse that logic. By your reasoning, Adam Thielen ought to be thrilled with $1 million a year because, after all, he wasn't even drafted.

"Bad value for the spot" doesn't apply to a guy going into his fifth year. You pay (or don't pay) a guy based on the player he is right now, not what fans thought he should be coming out of college.

And for your information, just because you say Waynes is "average" doesn't make it so. Likewise, the opinions of talking heads or PFF doesn't matter, either. The only opinions that matter are those of Mike Zimmer, George Edwards and Rick Spielman.
Agreed and Waynes is much better than "average". And I can tell you that our staff feels the same way. There are so many rookies coming out of college that hardly touch the field as a rookie. Top pick or not. That literally means nothing. He developed and he learned under Zim and has become a very solid CB for us. That is 100% good value. He did what a draft pick is suppose to do. learn and develop into a good starter for their team. He did exactly that.
Great points, except I never said Waynes was “average” or that his second contract should be based on his first.

Waynes is an above average CB who has only started 2 full seasons. That is not good value for the 11th overall pick. 11th overall picks should be the impact guys who you build teams around, not guys who are here for 4 seasons and then move on because they aren’t valuable enough to the team to warrant a second contract. Some team will pay him I am sure, so he isn’t a bad player, but he was clearly not the best fit for this team, or why wouldn’t the Vikings extend him?

You wouldn’t want the Vikings to use the 18th pick on a guy who wouldn’t begin starting at guard fulltime until his 3rd season, play well in his 4th, and then get traded for a 3rd, would you? That is just bad value at that spot. Probably good value in the 4th, but bad value in the middle of the 1st.
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Re: Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:37 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:46 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:41 am


Agreed and Waynes is much better than "average". And I can tell you that our staff feels the same way. There are so many rookies coming out of college that hardly touch the field as a rookie. Top pick or not. That literally means nothing. He developed and he learned under Zim and has become a very solid CB for us. That is 100% good value. He did what a draft pick is suppose to do. learn and develop into a good starter for their team. He did exactly that.
Great points, except I never said Waynes was “average” or that his second contract should be based on his first.

Waynes is an above average CB who has only started 2 full seasons. That is not good value for the 11th overall pick. 11th overall picks should be the impact guys who you build teams around, not guys who are here for 4 seasons and then move on because they aren’t valuable enough to the team to warrant a second contract. Some team will pay him I am sure, so he isn’t a bad player, but he was clearly not the best fit for this team, or why wouldn’t the Vikings extend him?

You wouldn’t want the Vikings to use the 18th pick on a guy who wouldn’t begin starting at guard fulltime until his 3rd season, play well in his 4th, and then get traded for a 3rd, would you? That is just bad value at that spot. Probably good value in the 4th, but bad value in the middle of the 1st.
Well it's a lot different when you have a veteran like Newman holding off that spot until Waynes is ready. Do we have a guy like Newman on the OL? No. We didnt NEED Waynes to jump right out of the gate and start. So why rush him? If anything, it's a smart coaching decision.

Have you not paid attention to why they are "shopping" him? For cap reasons and (I'm guessing) because we have so much work to do on the OL. We are also insanely rich at CB. Not because they dont think Waynes is "valuable" or "not a fit on this team". We cant extend everyone. They drafted the "backup plan" in Hughes last year in case they couldnt afford Waynes. The idea is, you let the guy walk that will need big money for a guy on a low end first round rookie contract and your defense doesnt skip a beat. "Bad value" is picking a guy like Kevin White 7th overall and he hardly sniffs the field in 4 years.
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Re: Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:03 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:37 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:46 am

Great points, except I never said Waynes was “average” or that his second contract should be based on his first.

Waynes is an above average CB who has only started 2 full seasons. That is not good value for the 11th overall pick. 11th overall picks should be the impact guys who you build teams around, not guys who are here for 4 seasons and then move on because they aren’t valuable enough to the team to warrant a second contract. Some team will pay him I am sure, so he isn’t a bad player, but he was clearly not the best fit for this team, or why wouldn’t the Vikings extend him?

You wouldn’t want the Vikings to use the 18th pick on a guy who wouldn’t begin starting at guard fulltime until his 3rd season, play well in his 4th, and then get traded for a 3rd, would you? That is just bad value at that spot. Probably good value in the 4th, but bad value in the middle of the 1st.
Well it's a lot different when you have a veteran like Newman holding off that spot until Waynes is ready. Do we have a guy like Newman on the OL? No. We didnt NEED Waynes to jump right out of the gate and start. So why rush him? If anything, it's a smart coaching decision.

Have you not paid attention to why they are "shopping" him? For cap reasons and (I'm guessing) because we have so much work to do on the OL. We are also insanely rich at CB. Not because they dont think Waynes is "valuable" or "not a fit on this team". We cant extend everyone. They drafted the "backup plan" in Hughes last year in case they couldnt afford Waynes. The idea is, you let the guy walk that will need big money for a guy on a low end first round rookie contract and your defense doesnt skip a beat. "Bad value" is picking a guy like Kevin White 7th overall and he hardly sniffs the field in 4 years.
The White pick at least had the potential to provide 7th overall value, since the Bears were desperate for a WR. Obviously it was a bad value pick with how poorly White has played, but that doesn't justify giving up an 11th overall for a CB when you have Terrance Newman, Xavier Rhodes and Captain Munnerlyn already and when Andrus Peat is on the board and you don't really have a starting, healthy RT. Or a good LT for that matter.

The amazing thing is, in 2018 we repeated this mistake and took a CB instead of Hernandez when the biggest need was a guard.
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Re: Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:32 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:03 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:37 pm


Well it's a lot different when you have a veteran like Newman holding off that spot until Waynes is ready. Do we have a guy like Newman on the OL? No. We didnt NEED Waynes to jump right out of the gate and start. So why rush him? If anything, it's a smart coaching decision.

Have you not paid attention to why they are "shopping" him? For cap reasons and (I'm guessing) because we have so much work to do on the OL. We are also insanely rich at CB. Not because they dont think Waynes is "valuable" or "not a fit on this team". We cant extend everyone. They drafted the "backup plan" in Hughes last year in case they couldnt afford Waynes. The idea is, you let the guy walk that will need big money for a guy on a low end first round rookie contract and your defense doesnt skip a beat. "Bad value" is picking a guy like Kevin White 7th overall and he hardly sniffs the field in 4 years.
The White pick at least had the potential to provide 7th overall value, since the Bears were desperate for a WR. Obviously it was a bad value pick with how poorly White has played, but that doesn't justify giving up an 11th overall for a CB when you have Terrance Newman, Xavier Rhodes and Captain Munnerlyn already and when Andrus Peat is on the board and you don't really have a starting, healthy RT. Or a good LT for that matter.

The amazing thing is, in 2018 we repeated this mistake and took a CB instead of Hernandez when the biggest need was a guard.
How did Waynes not have potential to provide 11th overall value??? Terrance Newman was 39 years old at the time. And Munnerlyn is a slot CB. Both only had 1-2 years left with us max.

And Andrus Peat? Come on man. He's been an average to a below average bum since entering the league. Peat didnt start his rookie year either. He played spot duty. So that must mean he's not a good value pick either right? Either way, you're sitting here complaining about Waynes not being good value but you're saying we should have taken Andrus Peat.....woof :shock:

And who cares if guard was our biggest need. That doesnt mean we HAVE to draft a guard. Maybe they didnt have him rated high, who knows. And you're also basically saying that if we "have a decent enough guy in that spot" pass on a player you think is legit just to go after a need. That couldnt be a worse draft strategy. It's the complete opposite of trusting your board and taking BPA.
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Re: Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:38 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:32 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:03 pm

The White pick at least had the potential to provide 7th overall value, since the Bears were desperate for a WR. Obviously it was a bad value pick with how poorly White has played, but that doesn't justify giving up an 11th overall for a CB when you have Terrance Newman, Xavier Rhodes and Captain Munnerlyn already and when Andrus Peat is on the board and you don't really have a starting, healthy RT. Or a good LT for that matter.

The amazing thing is, in 2018 we repeated this mistake and took a CB instead of Hernandez when the biggest need was a guard.
How did Waynes not have potential to provide 11th overall value??? Terrance Newman was 39 years old at the time. And Munnerlyn is a slot CB. Both only had 1-2 years left with us max.

And Andrus Peat? Come on man. He's been an average to a below average bum since entering the league. Peat didnt start his rookie year either. He played spot duty. So that must mean he's not a good value pick either right? Either way, you're sitting here complaining about Waynes not being good value but you're saying we should have taken Andrus Peat.....woof :shock:

And who cares if guard was our biggest need. That doesnt mean we HAVE to draft a guard. Maybe they didnt have him rated high, who knows. And you're also basically saying that if we "have a decent enough guy in that spot" pass on a player you think is legit just to go after a need. That couldnt be a worse draft strategy. It's the complete opposite of trusting your board and taking BPA.
Yep you are right. Hughes was the correct pick in 2018, and not addressing the biggest need on the line was a smart move and worked out well this season.

Not having a guy like Peat who can play LG on a great Saints line and fill in at LT when needed is a good thing. Who needs that kind of pro bowl player on Oline? He started 7 more games as a rookie than Waynes did btw.
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Re: Vikings “actively” shopping Waynes

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:00 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:38 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:32 pm


How did Waynes not have potential to provide 11th overall value??? Terrance Newman was 39 years old at the time. And Munnerlyn is a slot CB. Both only had 1-2 years left with us max.

And Andrus Peat? Come on man. He's been an average to a below average bum since entering the league. Peat didnt start his rookie year either. He played spot duty. So that must mean he's not a good value pick either right? Either way, you're sitting here complaining about Waynes not being good value but you're saying we should have taken Andrus Peat.....woof :shock:

And who cares if guard was our biggest need. That doesnt mean we HAVE to draft a guard. Maybe they didnt have him rated high, who knows. And you're also basically saying that if we "have a decent enough guy in that spot" pass on a player you think is legit just to go after a need. That couldnt be a worse draft strategy. It's the complete opposite of trusting your board and taking BPA.
Yep you are right. Hughes was the correct pick in 2018, and not addressing the biggest need on the line was a smart move and worked out well this season.

Not having a guy like Peat who can play LG on a great Saints line and fill in at LT when needed is a good thing. Who needs that kind of pro bowl player on Oline? He started 7 more games as a rookie than Waynes did btw.
You clearly have no idea what the point of BPA is and why teams do it. And Hughes tore his ACL. How can you predict that or even that he would or wouldnt have made an impact if the injury didnt happen? You dont know. Hernandez could have torn his Achilles. And you're putting words into my mouth. I didnt say "not addressing the biggest need on the OL was a smart move". Nobody said it had to be in the first round. We could have done it in the next round, free agency, trade, etc. So yeah, I am right to an extent. Guard could have been addressed multiple different ways other than drafting Hernandez. No less, Hernandez was good early on but really tallied off at the end of the year and didnt change an offensive line like Quinton Nelson did in Indy. That guy made everyone else around him better. Hernandez wasnt that type of player. I mean does Hernandez put us in the playoffs this year? Probably not. But I've said this before and I'll say it again, what is the difference if we took Mike Hughes/Oneill or Hernandez/Josh Jackson? Guys love to complain about not getting Hernandez but instead we land O'Neill, who in the end, was an overall better pass blocker than Hernandez this year. And Josh Jackson was a trash can in GB this year. At least Hughes looked like he had more potential than Jackson and O'Neill played well. If we went the other way, we'd be getting less "value" in the end. And guess what?!!! If we drafted Hernandez last year guess what we would need this year.....A TACKLE! So what is the difference?! I'm starting to think you're starting to complain just to complain without actually digging into other avenues, possibilities, etc.

As for Peat, he can play LG on a good Saints OL? I think any guard in the NFL can play LG on an offensive line. You actually have to be effective in what you do though. And he hasnt been in at least a few years now. Dont refer to the pro bowl, it's a joke and he made it this year which is sad because he was terrible all season. Also, Peat was filling in for injury, Waynes was not. So idk what you're trying to prove there. And for the record.....
Peat got positively dominated in New Orleans' Divisional Round win over the Eagles. Of course, that often happens even when he's healthy. via rotoworld
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