Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by fiestavike » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:22 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:45 am


So that's Cousins fault that his interior sucks? He's a pure pocket passing QB. Not a scrambler. Tom Brady isnt a scrambler and doesnt move from the pocket when pressured.... but guess what, he actually has an OL that can hold up.
This is not a good comparison for your case. The issue isn't 'scrambling' its being able to move within the pocket. Here, Cousins is in Bradford territory, which places him among the worst qbs in the history of the game at moving within the pocket. Cousins will never be an above average QB if he is forced to play in a system which requires him to do something he is absolutely terrible at nearly every time he drops back to pass. Something which causes him to frequently be sacked, stripped, have passes batted down, and occasionally panic and throw backward passes. This is why I am excited about bringing Kubiak on board. I expect to see plenty of lateral pressure placed on defenses, lots of bootlegs, lots of play action, lots of half field reads, and hopefully a lot more passes sailing out of bounds in place of sacks, interceptions and fumbles. Put Kirk in a position to avoid the negative plays he is prone to commit, while giving him a chance to do the things he does really well. He is more talented than Matt Schaub or Jake Plummer, who managed to look respectable in this system. Frankly, I think that's all this team needs to at least be back in the discussion for a title.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:27 am

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:22 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:45 am


So that's Cousins fault that his interior sucks? He's a pure pocket passing QB. Not a scrambler. Tom Brady isnt a scrambler and doesnt move from the pocket when pressured.... but guess what, he actually has an OL that can hold up.
This is not a good comparison for your case. The issue isn't 'scrambling' its being able to move within the pocket. Here, Cousins is in Bradford territory, which places him among the worst qbs in the history of the game at moving within the pocket. Cousins will never be an above average QB if he is forced to play in a system which requires him to do something he is absolutely terrible at nearly every time he drops back to pass. Something which causes him to frequently be sacked, stripped, have passes batted down, and occasionally panic and throw backward passes. This is why I am excited about bringing Kubiak on board. I expect to see plenty of lateral pressure placed on defenses, lots of bootlegs, lots of play action, lots of half field reads, and hopefully a lot more passes sailing out of bounds in place of sacks, interceptions and fumbles. Put Kirk in a position to avoid the negative plays he is prone to commit, while giving him a chance to do the things he does really well. He is more talented than Matt Schaub or Jake Plummer, who managed to look respectable in this system. Frankly, I think that's all this team needs to at least be back in the discussion for a title.
I understand what you are saying but my point is, he still needs that protection in the middle. That is where the majority of the pressure came from this year. If you have solid protection in there, his sack numbers should drastically drop. Whether he is moving in the pocket or not, he wasnt getting killed his first two years starting in Washington. He has the last two years. He's still the same QB he was 3-4 years ago. He didnt move any better then than he does now. So provide him with the protection he needs and you'll see a huge difference.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by fiestavike » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:44 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:27 am
fiestavike wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:22 am


This is not a good comparison for your case. The issue isn't 'scrambling' its being able to move within the pocket. Here, Cousins is in Bradford territory, which places him among the worst qbs in the history of the game at moving within the pocket. Cousins will never be an above average QB if he is forced to play in a system which requires him to do something he is absolutely terrible at nearly every time he drops back to pass. Something which causes him to frequently be sacked, stripped, have passes batted down, and occasionally panic and throw backward passes. This is why I am excited about bringing Kubiak on board. I expect to see plenty of lateral pressure placed on defenses, lots of bootlegs, lots of play action, lots of half field reads, and hopefully a lot more passes sailing out of bounds in place of sacks, interceptions and fumbles. Put Kirk in a position to avoid the negative plays he is prone to commit, while giving him a chance to do the things he does really well. He is more talented than Matt Schaub or Jake Plummer, who managed to look respectable in this system. Frankly, I think that's all this team needs to at least be back in the discussion for a title.
I understand what you are saying but my point is, he still needs that protection in the middle. That is where the majority of the pressure came from this year. If you have solid protection in there, his sack numbers should drastically drop. Whether he is moving in the pocket or not, he wasnt getting killed his first two years starting in Washington. He has the last two years. He's still the same QB he was 3-4 years ago. He didnt move any better then than he does now. So provide him with the protection he needs and you'll see a huge difference.
I'm certainly not going to argue that better protection wouldn't help him play better. It wasn't just up the middle though. He also took pressures from the outside at the top of his drop which were basically 100 percent on Cousins. In any case, I like the idea of scheming away from what he is never going to be great at. Frankly, the pieces we currently have on the OL will also be better in the sort of scheme I think we'll be running this year. Remmers in particular can be a very strong RT in this system. The question is what to do with Reiff and O'Neill if you keep Remmers (and does this rule out drafting a T?) and what to do inside with the pieces we have left. If he will do it, Reiff at LG could be a real option. The Vikings might well be looking for just 1 OL early in the draft (probably an athletic C like Bradbury or McKoy) and then let Elflein fight it out with everyone else at RG.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:19 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:44 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:27 am


I understand what you are saying but my point is, he still needs that protection in the middle. That is where the majority of the pressure came from this year. If you have solid protection in there, his sack numbers should drastically drop. Whether he is moving in the pocket or not, he wasnt getting killed his first two years starting in Washington. He has the last two years. He's still the same QB he was 3-4 years ago. He didnt move any better then than he does now. So provide him with the protection he needs and you'll see a huge difference.
I'm certainly not going to argue that better protection wouldn't help him play better. It wasn't just up the middle though. He also took pressures from the outside at the top of his drop which were basically 100 percent on Cousins. In any case, I like the idea of scheming away from what he is never going to be great at. Frankly, the pieces we currently have on the OL will also be better in the sort of scheme I think we'll be running this year. Remmers in particular can be a very strong RT in this system. The question is what to do with Reiff and O'Neill if you keep Remmers (and does this rule out drafting a T?) and what to do inside with the pieces we have left. If he will do it, Reiff at LG could be a real option. The Vikings might well be looking for just 1 OL early in the draft (probably an athletic C like Bradbury or McKoy) and then let Elflein fight it out with everyone else at RG.
Side note to the previous post I made towards you, he also said moving "from" the pocket. Moving "within" and moving "from" the pocket are two completely different things.

As for this post, I agree in a sense that maybe he didnt always step up into the pocket. But not trying to make an excuse but if your interior sucks, and you hit the back of your drop like he was against Buffalo and Reiff was getting tooled on by Jerry Hughes, where do you go? Some of the time, at least against Buffalo, he didnt even have the time to step into the pocket. He was getting hit at the back of his drop. And I do know that was not the only game that was happening. If a pass play is calling for a 7 step drop, you have to take it and if you're hitting your 7th step and Jerry Hughes is already in your face, how is that on Cousins? So was some of it on Cousins, for sure. But was it 100% on Cousins like you're saying? No. A lot goes into that. Is the QB stepping into the pocket? What was the play call and how many steps were required? Did the OL give enough time? And so on.

I will say straight up, I am in no way constantly posting on here just to make excuses for Kirk Cousins. I'm posting the reality of things. That its not just Kirk didnt do this and Kirk didnt do that. There are multiple reasons things went wrong. Yeah Cousins is at fault in his own way but there are many others that didnt do their job like they should have either.

As for you addressing the OL, I agree Remmers was a good RT and I wouldnt mind having O'Neill at LT and Remmers at RT but I feel like Remmers is the odd man out here more than Reiff because Remmers costs us nothing to cut. Reiff costs us a little over $6 million in dead money. Given how strong this tackle class is too, I dont mind filling LT or moving O'Neill to LT and filling RT in this draft. Dont be surprised that if we trade one of our players like Waynes or Griffen, that we get an OL in return instead of just a high draft pick. I mean if we could find a guard that still on a rookie deal that is very solid, I would pull that trigger I think. I dont know if I'm ready to give up on Elflein yet. He was solid IMO his rookie year but was terrible last year. I'm willing to give him another shot. Especially because his surrounding cast this year was Remmers and Compton. It never helps a center if you have 2 trash guards on each side of you. Put 2 solid guards next to him and I think you would see a huge difference in his play.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:34 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:22 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:45 am


So that's Cousins fault that his interior sucks? He's a pure pocket passing QB. Not a scrambler. Tom Brady isnt a scrambler and doesnt move from the pocket when pressured.... but guess what, he actually has an OL that can hold up.
This is not a good comparison for your case. The issue isn't 'scrambling' its being able to move within the pocket. Here, Cousins is in Bradford territory, which places him among the worst qbs in the history of the game at moving within the pocket. Cousins will never be an above average QB if he is forced to play in a system which requires him to do something he is absolutely terrible at nearly every time he drops back to pass. Something which causes him to frequently be sacked, stripped, have passes batted down, and occasionally panic and throw backward passes. This is why I am excited about bringing Kubiak on board. I expect to see plenty of lateral pressure placed on defenses, lots of bootlegs, lots of play action, lots of half field reads, and hopefully a lot more passes sailing out of bounds in place of sacks, interceptions and fumbles. Put Kirk in a position to avoid the negative plays he is prone to commit, while giving him a chance to do the things he does really well. He is more talented than Matt Schaub or Jake Plummer, who managed to look respectable in this system. Frankly, I think that's all this team needs to at least be back in the discussion for a title.
Not to mention Brady gets rid of the ball much quicker than Cousins ever has. He is a QB who makes his line look better. Cousins is a QB who makes his line look worse.

Kubiak has made lesser QBs than Cousins look pretty good, but with Shaub at least, I think that was more about Andre Johnson than his scheme. There are certain WRs who make their QBs look better than they are, and Johnson is one of them. So is Hopkins for that matter (they have drafted WRs well in Houston).
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by fiestavike » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:39 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:34 pm

Kubiak has made lesser QBs than Cousins look pretty good, but with Shaub at least, I think that was more about Andre Johnson than his scheme. There are certain WRs who make their QBs look better than they are, and Johnson is one of them. So is Hopkins for that matter (they have drafted WRs well in Houston).
I'd put Diggs and Thielen on the list of WRs who make QBs look better too.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:42 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:19 pm
I'm posting the reality of things. That its not just Kirk didnt do this and Kirk didnt do that. There are multiple reasons things went wrong. Yeah Cousins is at fault in his own way but there are many others that didnt do their job like they should have either.
You are posting your reality, which is different than reality reality. It is a homeristic point of view, and that is fine, you are a fan and have every right to be a homer. That is why you can say things like "Yeah Cousins is at fault in his own way" and then go on for pages about why nothing was his fault, and never actually saying one negative thing about the guy.

Just like I have every right to not be a homer and hold my favorite team accountable for mistakes they have made.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:45 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:39 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:34 pm

Kubiak has made lesser QBs than Cousins look pretty good, but with Shaub at least, I think that was more about Andre Johnson than his scheme. There are certain WRs who make their QBs look better than they are, and Johnson is one of them. So is Hopkins for that matter (they have drafted WRs well in Houston).
I'd put Diggs and Thielen on the list of WRs who make QBs look better too.
They do, and have made Bradford, Case and Cousins look better.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by fiestavike » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:01 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:19 pm

As for you addressing the OL, I agree Remmers was a good RT and I wouldnt mind having O'Neill at LT and Remmers at RT but I feel like Remmers is the odd man out here more than Reiff because Remmers costs us nothing to cut. Reiff costs us a little over $6 million in dead money. Given how strong this tackle class is too, I dont mind filling LT or moving O'Neill to LT and filling RT in this draft.
But why create a need? We currently have a starting RT under contract who functionally is getting paid 4.5 million. That's a bargain!
I'm not opposed to drafting a Tackle anyway, 'a year in advance', but Remmers is under contract in 2020 for functionally 5.5 million, which is still a bargain for a starting RT, so T is not a desperate need. The interior is much more pressing. Its not until 2021 that both Reiff and Remmers contracts become almost entirely expendable, but I see them both as part of the longterm plan.

Waynes, Griffen, Sendejo and Rudolph could clear us 30 million in cap space. That could be enough to retain some other key players or make a splash in free agency. All the better if we could get something for them. This notion of trading all of them to the Raiders for a 1 and a 2 (though far fetched) is just Gruden like enough to be possible, and I would gladly do that deal.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:43 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:42 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:19 pm
I'm posting the reality of things. That its not just Kirk didnt do this and Kirk didnt do that. There are multiple reasons things went wrong. Yeah Cousins is at fault in his own way but there are many others that didnt do their job like they should have either.
You are posting your reality, which is different than reality reality. It is a homeristic point of view, and that is fine, you are a fan and have every right to be a homer. That is why you can say things like "Yeah Cousins is at fault in his own way" and then go on for pages about why nothing was his fault, and never actually saying one negative thing about the guy.

Just like I have every right to not be a homer and hold my favorite team accountable for mistakes they have made.
I never said nothing was his fault. You're reading what you want to read now. I literally just said that he's held the ball too long at times. I also said there were times where guys were in his face before he even hit the back of his drop. Is that not reality? Or is every sack he took this year solely his fault? The difference is, I'm saying multiple people including Cousins was at fault for how this offense performed this year. You're piling all the blame on Cousins....because you cant stand him. I'm not being a homer. I'm putting blame on the offense as a whole and explaining that there were things that Cousins is at fault for but also that others are just as much at fault for. You're literally the only Viking fan on earth sitting here saying we have a decent OL. What kind of reality is that? What kind of reality is saying Cousins is at fault for all of the fumbles, interceptions, sacks, etc? It's not. So believe what you want to believe but I truly cant take your opinion seriously because your hate for Cousins has completely taken over.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:55 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:45 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:39 pm


I'd put Diggs and Thielen on the list of WRs who make QBs look better too.
They do, and have made Bradford, Case and Cousins look better.
The difference between the 3 of them is that Bradford and Case have never really had a good season outside of 2016 (Bradford) and 2017 (Case). Cousins threw for over 4,000 yards with Terrelle Pryor as his #1 WR last year. He's thrown for nearly identical numbers since he's been a starter. 4,000+ yards, 25+ TDs and 13 or less INTs each of his 4 years starting. Case and Sam never touched that yardage and neither of them threw for over 22 TDs, ever.... So do you think if Cousins didnt have Thielen or Diggs this year, his numbers would be garbage? Thielen and Diggs are the best 2 WRs he's ever had but it's not like they drastically elevated his play. He still puts up consistent numbers no matter who he is throwing too. For someone like Case, yeah when you're throwing a pop fly and Thielen is coming down with it, he's bailing you out and making you look better.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by fiestavike » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:02 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:43 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:42 pm


You are posting your reality, which is different than reality reality. It is a homeristic point of view, and that is fine, you are a fan and have every right to be a homer. That is why you can say things like "Yeah Cousins is at fault in his own way" and then go on for pages about why nothing was his fault, and never actually saying one negative thing about the guy.

Just like I have every right to not be a homer and hold my favorite team accountable for mistakes they have made.
I never said nothing was his fault. You're reading what you want to read now. I literally just said that he's held the ball too long at times. I also said there were times where guys were in his face before he even hit the back of his drop. Is that not reality? Or is every sack he took this year solely his fault? The difference is, I'm saying multiple people including Cousins was at fault for how this offense performed this year. You're piling all the blame on Cousins....because you cant stand him. I'm not being a homer. I'm putting blame on the offense as a whole and explaining that there were things that Cousins is at fault for but also that others are just as much at fault for. You're literally the only Viking fan on earth sitting here saying we have a decent OL. What kind of reality is that? What kind of reality is saying Cousins is at fault for all of the fumbles, interceptions, sacks, etc? It's not. So believe what you want to believe but I truly cant take your opinion seriously because your hate for Cousins has completely taken over.
I think we can all agree that Cousins was playing behind a poor offensive line, in a system that wasn't an ideal fit, and also that Cousins has some notable shortcomings, like nearly every player. The ongoing bickering is merely about degree of blame. Its more interesting to discuss how to address the reality of the situation going forward. That might include working on contingency plans in case Kirk Cousins really flounders again but its even more pressing to figure out how to put Kirk Cousins in a situation to be successful. Ideally, we could do both of those things this year!
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by mansquatch » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:16 pm

I'm coming back to this after a hiatus of several weeks. I still think in terms of team performance and QB specific performance, the coaching disparity between the Patriots Offensive staff and the Vikings Offensive Staff is the single greatest difference between the results of the two QBs during the 2018 season.

Brady played under the greatest NFL head coach ever and a well seasoned staff of offfensive coaches. He was also buoyed by players like James White who are ultimate professionals at their specific roles.

By contrast Cousins played under a first time OC that by mid-season was completely figured out by opposing DCs and had no answer as NFL teams adapted to his style. Add this to the fact the staff lost not just it's verteran OC from 2017, but also 2 days before training camp, it's OL Coach.

IMO this is the single largest difference between the two players and their surrounding cast. I said previously, if you look at the skill positions, it is arguably a push. We have better WR, they have better TE and a slight edge at RB. OL was an issue, but that was coaching related. Early on the Patriots OL wasn't so far from ours. By December that changed. COACHING...

Another way to think about it is this way: If Cousins got to play under BB in NE for the 2018 season I'm not sure he wins a SB, but I'm pretty sure he does a lot better than 8-7-1.

Also, 8-7-1 was not all on Kirk. There were a few games that were lost by the defense, perhaps most notably the TNF game in LA. Another by ST, ie the GB Tie. Against SEA and NE did Cousin's play bad or was the game planning terrible? IMO, it was more the latter. At no point in either of those games was our offense doing anything that looked competitive. Cousin's didn't remind me of TJack or Ponder where guys around him were executing and the QB just couldn't get it done.

The media right now are unbareably stupid. They are citing this refrain about how dissappointed everyone in Eagan is with KC. They have completely lost focus on what happened with Sparano and JDF. Spielman actually brought up the Sparano effect during an interview with PA at the Combine. Don't buy the media narrative, they will lead you to bad conclusions.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by fiestavike » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:25 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:55 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:45 pm


They do, and have made Bradford, Case and Cousins look better.
The difference between the 3 of them is that Bradford and Case have never really had a good season outside of 2016 (Bradford) and 2017 (Case). Cousins threw for over 4,000 yards with Terrelle Pryor as his #1 WR last year. He's thrown for nearly identical numbers since he's been a starter. 4,000+ yards, 25+ TDs and 13 or less INTs each of his 4 years starting. Case and Sam never touched that yardage and neither of them threw for over 22 TDs, ever.... So do you think if Cousins didnt have Thielen or Diggs this year, his numbers would be garbage? Thielen and Diggs are the best 2 WRs he's ever had but it's not like they drastically elevated his play. He still puts up consistent numbers no matter who he is throwing too. For someone like Case, yeah when you're throwing a pop fly and Thielen is coming down with it, he's bailing you out and making you look better.
This is where you and I seem to fundamentally disagree. 4,000 yards does not make a good season in my book. Sometimes, 'pop fly' passes are better. There are things that to me are completely superficial that to you seem to mark excellence.
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Re: Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:30 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:25 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:55 pm


The difference between the 3 of them is that Bradford and Case have never really had a good season outside of 2016 (Bradford) and 2017 (Case). Cousins threw for over 4,000 yards with Terrelle Pryor as his #1 WR last year. He's thrown for nearly identical numbers since he's been a starter. 4,000+ yards, 25+ TDs and 13 or less INTs each of his 4 years starting. Case and Sam never touched that yardage and neither of them threw for over 22 TDs, ever.... So do you think if Cousins didnt have Thielen or Diggs this year, his numbers would be garbage? Thielen and Diggs are the best 2 WRs he's ever had but it's not like they drastically elevated his play. He still puts up consistent numbers no matter who he is throwing too. For someone like Case, yeah when you're throwing a pop fly and Thielen is coming down with it, he's bailing you out and making you look better.
This is where you and I seem to fundamentally disagree. 4,000 yards does not make a good season in my book. Sometimes, 'pop fly' passes are better. There are things that to me are completely superficial that to you seem to mark excellence.
When is an arrant throw into double coverage when you’re getting pressured ever good? If your guy comes down with it, they just bailed you out. I’m not just saying 4,000 yards “marks excellence”. It’s the consistency as a passer. Cousins doesn’t need Diggs and Thielen to move the ball. He’s good enough to do that on his own. He’s proved it. Keenum has not done that outside of his one lucky year. Bradford is so often injured it’s hard to tell. That’s what I’m referring to. Not just a number. It’s the numbers, the play and who he’s played with. And he’s done it for 4 years
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