2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

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2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by Cliff » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:02 pm

EAGAN, Minn. — A day after the first round of the 2018 NFL Draft, Vikings Head Coach Mike Zimmer broached the topic of cornerback depth and noted a team could never have enough depth at the position.

Zimmer’s words came after the Vikings used their first-round pick on cornerback Mike Hughes, but they proved to be true during a 2019 season in which every cornerback missed at least one game due to injury.

Hughes, who was a bright spot early on in his rookie season, ended up playing 243 defensive snaps before he suffered a torn ACL in Minnesota’s Week 6 win against Arizona. Hughes provided an early highlight with a pick-six in the season opener against the 49ers.

Hughes’ season-ending injury created a void in the secondary, and it didn’t help that other cornerbacks faced a myriad of health issues through the season.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by Cliff » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:18 am

I do wonder how the defense would have looked if Hughes hadn't gone down. Looked like he was going to have a good year.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by CharVike » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:34 am

A team needs CBs and many of them. People want to go the D Green route and play anybody, like WR R Tate, at CB. That won't work you need 4 good ones and a couple of them need to pick off passes. We lack that big time. Huge hole on our team still. But we do have a couple average + players in Rhodes and Waynes. And Hill and Hughes look to have potential. But we need some ball hawks badly. If ones available at 18 that needs to be the pick.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:44 pm

CharVike wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:34 am
A team needs CBs and many of them. People want to go the D Green route and play anybody, like WR R Tate, at CB. That won't work you need 4 good ones and a couple of them need to pick off passes. We lack that big time. Huge hole on our team still. But we do have a couple average + players in Rhodes and Waynes. And Hill and Hughes look to have potential. But we need some ball hawks badly. If ones available at 18 that needs to be the pick.
No way we take another CB in the first round this year. Our CBs are deeper than any team in the league when healthy. By a long shot. And the whole term "ball hawk" I question because Marcus Peters is considered a "ball hawk" but he's one of the worst cover CBs in the NFL. Trae Waynes wasnt considered a "ball hawk" but had speed and physicality and we made the right choice by taking him over Peters. As long as our CBs are locking down WRs (which they did for the most part), I'm completely fine with that. I'd rather have that than a guy like Peters that gets an INT every 3 times he gives up a TD.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by S197 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:09 pm

CharVike wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:34 am
A team needs CBs and many of them. People want to go the D Green route and play anybody, like WR R Tate, at CB. That won't work you need 4 good ones and a couple of them need to pick off passes. We lack that big time. Huge hole on our team still. But we do have a couple average + players in Rhodes and Waynes. And Hill and Hughes look to have potential. But we need some ball hawks badly. If ones available at 18 that needs to be the pick.
Coach Zimmer, let me be the first to welcome you to the board.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:17 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:44 pm
CharVike wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:34 am
A team needs CBs and many of them. People want to go the D Green route and play anybody, like WR R Tate, at CB. That won't work you need 4 good ones and a couple of them need to pick off passes. We lack that big time. Huge hole on our team still. But we do have a couple average + players in Rhodes and Waynes. And Hill and Hughes look to have potential. But we need some ball hawks badly. If ones available at 18 that needs to be the pick.
No way we take another CB in the first round this year. Our CBs are deeper than any team in the league when healthy. By a long shot. And the whole term "ball hawk" I question because Marcus Peters is considered a "ball hawk" but he's one of the worst cover CBs in the NFL. Trae Waynes wasnt considered a "ball hawk" but had speed and physicality and we made the right choice by taking him over Peters. As long as our CBs are locking down WRs (which they did for the most part), I'm completely fine with that. I'd rather have that than a guy like Peters that gets an INT every 3 times he gives up a TD.
People who judge how good a CB is by how many picks they get, don't know football. Rhodes covers a guy and the WR is only targeted 1 time, that means he is doing his job the entire game. Peters covers a guy, he is targeted 12 times, catches 2 TDs and and 100 yards, but Peters gets a pick, that is not good CB play.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:11 pm

I don't know if we'll be able to keep Trae Waynes because of cap reasons (although I hope so). But I LOVE our depth.

Rhodes is still Rhodes. He dealt with a number of injuries this year, but when he was healthy, he wasn't targeted very often. Waynes has become an excellent all-around corner. He's made himself into a good cover corner, and he's a great tackler. Hughes has a ton of talent, and the coaches love his acumen. Mack Alexander grew up big-time this year and became very reliable, even though his antics can be silly. Holton Hill showed a ton of promise and played well when he was forced into action. Even Jayron Kearse had his moments playing the big corner position.

That's five solid corners, plus Kearse. Any team would take that.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:48 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:11 pm
I don't know if we'll be able to keep Trae Waynes because of cap reasons (although I hope so). But I LOVE our depth.

Rhodes is still Rhodes. He dealt with a number of injuries this year, but when he was healthy, he wasn't targeted very often. Waynes has become an excellent all-around corner. He's made himself into a good cover corner, and he's a great tackler. Hughes has a ton of talent, and the coaches love his acumen. Mack Alexander grew up big-time this year and became very reliable, even though his antics can be silly. Holton Hill showed a ton of promise and played well when he was forced into action. Even Jayron Kearse had his moments playing the big corner position.

That's five solid corners, plus Kearse. Any team would take that.
Our depth is awesome at CB, but you have to ask whether you want that much depth at the CB position, or another 2nd round pick for Waynes? There are a ton of holes on this team. By my count we need at least 4 starters (2 guards, a DT and a LBer), a good #2 RB, and an upgrade at the #3 WR spot. Then you absolutely need depth at center, TE, OT and DE.

We currently don't have the cap or picks to fill all of those needs, but trading Waynes would provide a lot of cap and a high value pick.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by CharVike » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:22 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:17 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:44 pm


No way we take another CB in the first round this year. Our CBs are deeper than any team in the league when healthy. By a long shot. And the whole term "ball hawk" I question because Marcus Peters is considered a "ball hawk" but he's one of the worst cover CBs in the NFL. Trae Waynes wasnt considered a "ball hawk" but had speed and physicality and we made the right choice by taking him over Peters. As long as our CBs are locking down WRs (which they did for the most part), I'm completely fine with that. I'd rather have that than a guy like Peters that gets an INT every 3 times he gives up a TD.
People who judge how good a CB is by how many picks they get, don't know football. Rhodes covers a guy and the WR is only targeted 1 time, that means he is doing his job the entire game. Peters covers a guy, he is targeted 12 times, catches 2 TDs and and 100 yards, but Peters gets a pick, that is not good CB play.
I don't know football. OK, I always thought getting TOs helped. I guess I was wrong.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:45 am

CharVike wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:22 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:17 pm


People who judge how good a CB is by how many picks they get, don't know football. Rhodes covers a guy and the WR is only targeted 1 time, that means he is doing his job the entire game. Peters covers a guy, he is targeted 12 times, catches 2 TDs and and 100 yards, but Peters gets a pick, that is not good CB play.
I don't know football. OK, I always thought getting TOs helped. I guess I was wrong.
He didnt direct that comment at you specifically. But if you actually watch Marcus Peters, he is not a good CB. Yeah sure, an INT helps, but giving up 2 TDs in the process actually hurts your team. Not help it. He's given up the most yards of any CB since 2015 (and that was before this year where he was even worse). He has 22 interceptions in his career but has given up 21 TDs (as of week 9 this year...couldnt find any stats on him from weeks 10-16). So chances are, he's given up more TDs since 2015 than he's gotten INTs. I believe it's around 24 TDs given up. That is downright pathetic. And it's more TDs than any CB has given up by a HUGE margin in that time span. No less he is a cancer. I wouldnt give up a 2031 7th round pick for the guy. He's a loud mouth cancer that hurts his team way more than he ever helps it.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by CharVike » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:18 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:45 am
CharVike wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:22 am


I don't know football. OK, I always thought getting TOs helped. I guess I was wrong.
He didnt direct that comment at you specifically. But if you actually watch Marcus Peters, he is not a good CB. Yeah sure, an INT helps, but giving up 2 TDs in the process actually hurts your team. Not help it. He's given up the most yards of any CB since 2015 (and that was before this year where he was even worse). He has 22 interceptions in his career but has given up 21 TDs (as of week 9 this year...couldnt find any stats on him from weeks 10-16). So chances are, he's given up more TDs since 2015 than he's gotten INTs. I believe it's around 24 TDs given up. That is downright pathetic. And it's more TDs than any CB has given up by a HUGE margin in that time span. No less he is a cancer. I wouldnt give up a 2031 7th round pick for the guy. He's a loud mouth cancer that hurts his team way more than he ever helps it.
I never mentioned Peters but he entered into the loop some how. I like cover guys that also get picks. Who don't. IMO we lack that now. If you have a few of them the ball will need to go somewhere. Rhodes didn't get thrown at because Waynes was developing and getting smoked. He is a much improved player at this point and should get better. Rhodes became the whipping boy when he played this season as Alexander also improved. Next years team should be interesting. I like Hill and Hughes but they both need more time before they hit there high point. And Hughes is coming off an injury so who knows what the impact will be.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:57 pm

CharVike wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:18 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:45 am


He didnt direct that comment at you specifically. But if you actually watch Marcus Peters, he is not a good CB. Yeah sure, an INT helps, but giving up 2 TDs in the process actually hurts your team. Not help it. He's given up the most yards of any CB since 2015 (and that was before this year where he was even worse). He has 22 interceptions in his career but has given up 21 TDs (as of week 9 this year...couldnt find any stats on him from weeks 10-16). So chances are, he's given up more TDs since 2015 than he's gotten INTs. I believe it's around 24 TDs given up. That is downright pathetic. And it's more TDs than any CB has given up by a HUGE margin in that time span. No less he is a cancer. I wouldnt give up a 2031 7th round pick for the guy. He's a loud mouth cancer that hurts his team way more than he ever helps it.
I never mentioned Peters but he entered into the loop some how. I like cover guys that also get picks. Who don't. IMO we lack that now. If you have a few of them the ball will need to go somewhere. Rhodes didn't get thrown at because Waynes was developing and getting smoked. He is a much improved player at this point and should get better. Rhodes became the whipping boy when he played this season as Alexander also improved. Next years team should be interesting. I like Hill and Hughes but they both need more time before they hit there high point. And Hughes is coming off an injury so who knows what the impact will be.
I get what you're saying but at the same time, if they arent allowing TDs, isnt that what matters most? Our defense allowed 15 passing TDs this year. That was #1 in the NFL. No less almost half the NFL defenses allowed double that number. In 2017, we allowed 13 passing TDs, also #1 in the NFL. In two season we have allowed 28 passing TDs. Most teams in the NFL are allowing 28 or more passing TDs in a single season. We did it in two. I think our CBs are more than fine right now. There are way more important needs that have to be addressed this offseason.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by VikingLord » Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:08 pm

CharVike wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:34 am
A team needs CBs and many of them. People want to go the D Green route and play anybody, like WR R Tate, at CB. That won't work you need 4 good ones and a couple of them need to pick off passes. We lack that big time. Huge hole on our team still. But we do have a couple average + players in Rhodes and Waynes. And Hill and Hughes look to have potential. But we need some ball hawks badly. If ones available at 18 that needs to be the pick.
Maybe I'm old school on this, but I think great teams are built from their offensive and defensive line play, and as the Vikes stand today, the offensive line is not nearly good enough. The impact of that is doubled when the starting QB isn't very mobile and/or doesn't feel and escape pressure very well. Offensive line has to be the priority this offseason I think.

One other comment on the ballhawking CB - those guys are great to have, and I generally agree with you that if a CB that simply can't be passed up is there when #19 rolls around Spielman would probably have to take him, but the defensive philosophy of the head coach and defensive coordinator can neutralize those skills. I don't see Zimmer advocating a very aggressive philosophy when it comes to his defenses. He likes a strong, disciplined pass rush that forces the ball out early and inaccurately, and he likes his cover guys to play tight and take away obvious passing options to help force those errant throws. When INTs do happen for the Vikings, they are typically coming from an errant throw rather than a DB or LB jumping a route or showing anticipation. Not to say the defensive backs and LBs aren't studying their opponents or the gameplan is poor - Zimmer would rather just play percentages and fundamentals over trying for splash plays. The difference is like the guy in baseball who swings for on base percentage versus the guy who swings to clear the bases. The on base guy is probably going to have the better average, while the home run guy is going to show up on the highlight reels more often.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:39 pm

CharVike wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:18 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:45 am


He didnt direct that comment at you specifically. But if you actually watch Marcus Peters, he is not a good CB. Yeah sure, an INT helps, but giving up 2 TDs in the process actually hurts your team. Not help it. He's given up the most yards of any CB since 2015 (and that was before this year where he was even worse). He has 22 interceptions in his career but has given up 21 TDs (as of week 9 this year...couldnt find any stats on him from weeks 10-16). So chances are, he's given up more TDs since 2015 than he's gotten INTs. I believe it's around 24 TDs given up. That is downright pathetic. And it's more TDs than any CB has given up by a HUGE margin in that time span. No less he is a cancer. I wouldnt give up a 2031 7th round pick for the guy. He's a loud mouth cancer that hurts his team way more than he ever helps it.
I never mentioned Peters but he entered into the loop some how. I like cover guys that also get picks. Who don't. IMO we lack that now. If you have a few of them the ball will need to go somewhere. Rhodes didn't get thrown at because Waynes was developing and getting smoked. He is a much improved player at this point and should get better. Rhodes became the whipping boy when he played this season as Alexander also improved. Next years team should be interesting. I like Hill and Hughes but they both need more time before they hit there high point. And Hughes is coming off an injury so who knows what the impact will be.
I was agreeing with PHP, and wasn't really responding to you. People thought Peters was a better CB because he had more picks, but the reality was he was thrown at a ton because he was always a step behind his guy, and because of being thrown at a lot, he had a ton of opportunities to get picks...as well as give up yards and passing TDs.

If you have a guy who has great hands and ball skills and is great in coverage, that is obviously the best scenario, who doesn't want turnovers? But, a CB with great ball skills and poor coverage ability is a bad CB, while one with no ball catching skills and who is great in coverage can still be a great CB.

I would also say, that when you are behind so much, or are struggling to score like we were in 2018, you are not going to get a lot of opportunities at picks. The opposition's opposing QB doesn't need to take a lot of chances when scoring 20 points pretty much guarantees a win. So while we were tied for 18th in picks this year, that is probably pretty good all things considered.
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Re: 2018 Vikings Position Recap: Cornerbacks

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:55 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:45 am
CharVike wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:22 am


I don't know football. OK, I always thought getting TOs helped. I guess I was wrong.
He didnt direct that comment at you specifically. But if you actually watch Marcus Peters, he is not a good CB. Yeah sure, an INT helps, but giving up 2 TDs in the process actually hurts your team. Not help it. He's given up the most yards of any CB since 2015 (and that was before this year where he was even worse). He has 22 interceptions in his career but has given up 21 TDs (as of week 9 this year...couldnt find any stats on him from weeks 10-16). So chances are, he's given up more TDs since 2015 than he's gotten INTs. I believe it's around 24 TDs given up. That is downright pathetic. And it's more TDs than any CB has given up by a HUGE margin in that time span. No less he is a cancer. I wouldnt give up a 2031 7th round pick for the guy. He's a loud mouth cancer that hurts his team way more than he ever helps it.
He's also zero help in run support, which contributes to his team being dead last in the league in YPC allowed.
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