Just Kidding Offseason

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Re: Just Kidding Offseason

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:52 am

Cliff wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:37 am
To me when I look at Case Keenum on the Vikings I see what Nick Foles is for the Eagles - you need the right situation and they can do well and get wins.

I think it's safe to assume that Carson Wentz is the overall better QB on that roster but for some reason the Eagles look a *lot* better with Foles at the helm. They are 4-1 with Foles as the starter, 5-6 with Wentz. It's entirely possible that if Wentz stayed healthy the Vikings would be in the playoffs.

Sometimes team chemistry is more important than stats or raw ability.
Absolutely. I'm the only non-Eagles fan in my family (except for youngest son who likes the Titans) I watched the Eagles game at my inlaws on Sunday and even though they are excited for Foles, when they are asked who should be the starting QB next year, they all want Wentz because he's the "better QB". I just don't understand what "better QB" means anymore. I thought the goal was to make the throws when you need to and WIN. But I guess I'm wrong. It's more important that you CAN make the throws than it is to actually make them. My bad.
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Re: Just Kidding Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:58 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:42 am
I think Doug Pederson has a lot to do with that. Whatever it is, Pederson + Foles = Magic

Did you see some of the plays they ran vs. the Bears. At one point Foles faked a screen right, faked it left, then tagged the TE on a delay route over the middle. It was one of the most innovating plays I've ever seen.
Foles lead the league in passer rating his first year as a starter for the Eagles, without Pederson, then struggled for years after that. I look at Foles like I would look at a great closer in baseball. He has a couple of pitches that are really hard to hit, but you leave him in for more than an inning or two, and batters will figure him out. Foles starts an entire season, and NFL DC's are going to figure out how to stop him.
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Re: Just Kidding Offseason

Post by mike2mike » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:10 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:34 am
Would be a pretty crazy offseason.

Guess I’m not sure what a “Keenum type player” is. Like where are those found? Keenum was a terrible QB that nobody cared about when we signed him. His play was more based off of the system and a little luck last year. Not his skills. Siemien was literally the exact type QB this year. He was a below average QB with a little starting experience to serve as a number 2. If there were legit “Keenum type players” out there, they’d be getting scooped up to start and paid a lot more money than what we gave Case Keenum last year. The term “Case Keenum type player” doesn’t exist in my book. It was a feel good story that we lucked out on. I mean the chances of us finding a QB that nobody knows or cares about, paying him $2 million or less and he leads us to a 13-3 record and an NFC championship berth are literally near zero. We had a luxury last year not having to pay our starting QB boat loads of money and having a good season. If you want good, consistent QB play, 95% of the time you’re probably going to have to pay for it or spend an early pick on it (which we haven’t had in a few years).

We need to just move forward with cousins, continue to build around him and see what this team can do
I guess I’m not sure what a just kidding offseason is.. just kidding.
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Re: Just Kidding Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:02 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:20 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:34 am
Would be a pretty crazy offseason.

Guess I’m not sure what a “Keenum type player” is. Like where are those found? Keenum was a terrible QB that nobody cared about when we signed him. His play was more based off of the system and a little luck last year. Not his skills. Siemien was literally the exact type QB this year. He was a below average QB with a little starting experience to serve as a number 2. If there were legit “Keenum type players” out there, they’d be getting scooped up to start and paid a lot more money than what we gave Case Keenum last year. The term “Case Keenum type player” doesn’t exist in my book. It was a feel good story that we lucked out on. I mean the chances of us finding a QB that nobody knows or cares about, paying him $2 million or less and he leads us to a 13-3 record and an NFC championship berth are literally near zero. We had a luxury last year not having to pay our starting QB boat loads of money and having a good season. If you want good, consistent QB play, 95% of the time you’re probably going to have to pay for it or spend an early pick on it (which we haven’t had in a few years).

We need to just move forward with cousins, continue to build around him and see what this team can do
A keenum type player is one where he wins 13 games behind a horrid offense, and the crowd loves him. Basically the opposite type of player Cousins is. Accuracy isnt everything when you are a chicken behind an offensive line.

Im so friggin tired of you bashing Case and praising Cousins on almost every post.
1.) Not once did I even bring up Kirk Cousins name in that post so not sure where you're going there.

2.) Keenum was behind a "horrid offense"? You're continuing to forget one thing....the system. If Case Keenum was actually a GOOD QB, he'd have more than 1 good season in 7 years. He was a system QB that has failed in every system but Shurmurs. Shurmur is now gone and Case is now once again under performing in Denver. I dont hate the guy. Last years ride was awesome. But I dont think Case Keenum is a good QB nor do I trust him outside of a Pat Shurmur system. And that has showed when you look at his career and now.

3.) You still didnt answer the question of: Where do you find that "Case Keenum type player" that some refer to? For $2 million per year that nobody else knows about and fits your system near perfect? The chances of finding that player are at about 1% or less. And let's not forget, chances are, the name Case Keenum wouldnt even be talked about on here if he didnt become the starter by default. If Bradford stayed healthy like he did the previous season, Case Keenum is still just another "run of the mill" NFL backup. And last I remember, when he was signed as a backup, everyone was like....meh. Me included. If anything, the entire situation was more of a "luck of the draw" type situation. Saying we shouldnt have signed Cousins and went with a "Case Keenum type QB" like we had last year.....that's not realistic. Go ahead and sign a Trevor Siemien to start for us for $2 mill a year just so we can spend a bunch of money on other positions and lets see how much the fan base likes that. Or even sign a Teddy or Case at $15-$20 mill a year....Case has been horrible this year and Teddy couldnt perform worth a damn in a mop up game. Trust me, we have it a lot better than some think. Because there was no better out on the market that's for sure.

4.) I wouldnt say the crowd hates Kirk Cousins. You are towards Cousins how you are towards Ponder. You legit hate the guy from what you say. Like you wished injury on Ponder, I feel it's the same for Cousins in your book. Cousins isnt an arrogant d-bag like Aaron Rodgers and he isnt an awful teammate like Jay Cutler was. Overall, he's a pretty stand up guy, a leader and a good teammate. Just because you cant stand him, doesnt mean that's the crowds view on him. I have said before and I will say it again, I'm not "praising Cousins on almost every post". I'm being realistic. Realistic in the sense that there were multiple problems from the FO to the kicker this year. You dont think I'm tired (and others are tired) of seeing you bash Cousins almost any chance you get in the chat and in threads? It's impossible to avoid Cousins chatter on here. Literally. Do I think Kirk Cousins is God? Not even close. Do I think Cousins made his mistakes this year? 100%. But am I going to sit here and bash him and point the finger at him because we didnt repeat last year? Never. Am I going to critique every throw he has and continue to sarcastically say "NICE THROW KIRK"? No. It's not just Kirk, it's not just the OL, it is MULTIPLE things. And I will say that Kirk Cousins is nowhere near #1 on that list. So I guess you can continue to throw the "you think Cousins is god" crap in my face but time and time again and put words in my mouth, but never was/is that the case and I've addressed that multiple times.

5.) And finally, didnt you foe me?......You said you're sick of hearing me "bash" Case and "praise" Cousins but you told me weeks ago you foed me?? Weird :confused:
Last edited by Pondering Her Percy on Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just Kidding Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:03 pm

mike2mike wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:10 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:34 am
Would be a pretty crazy offseason.

Guess I’m not sure what a “Keenum type player” is. Like where are those found? Keenum was a terrible QB that nobody cared about when we signed him. His play was more based off of the system and a little luck last year. Not his skills. Siemien was literally the exact type QB this year. He was a below average QB with a little starting experience to serve as a number 2. If there were legit “Keenum type players” out there, they’d be getting scooped up to start and paid a lot more money than what we gave Case Keenum last year. The term “Case Keenum type player” doesn’t exist in my book. It was a feel good story that we lucked out on. I mean the chances of us finding a QB that nobody knows or cares about, paying him $2 million or less and he leads us to a 13-3 record and an NFC championship berth are literally near zero. We had a luxury last year not having to pay our starting QB boat loads of money and having a good season. If you want good, consistent QB play, 95% of the time you’re probably going to have to pay for it or spend an early pick on it (which we haven’t had in a few years).

We need to just move forward with cousins, continue to build around him and see what this team can do
I guess I’m not sure what a just kidding offseason is.. just kidding.
I know you're kidding dude. It was more along the line of where do you find "that player" you're referring to is all I'm asking?
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Re: Just Kidding Offseason

Post by mike2mike » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:18 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:03 pm
mike2mike wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:10 pm

I guess I’m not sure what a just kidding offseason is.. just kidding.
I know you're kidding dude. It was more along the line of where do you find "that player" you're referring to is all I'm asking?
I don’t know. Hard to know if Keenum was a product of making a big leap as a result of the virtual reality reps and coaching and going from a bad supporting cast to a good one at the same time the Rams offense in a very short time suddenly became a good supporting cast, or just a fluke. Harder to call guys like that flukes when the Eagles with Foles see so much success and to some degree even when Goff, Trubiski, Baker Mayfield, Pat Mahommes

do know that QBs finding success seemingly out of nowhere is less and less uncommon. Teams have gotten good at incorporáing college plays and high schools and colleges have been good at running more pro style offense. NFL rules has protected QBs so that they have long careers while the number of quality options available increases. That could have it’s limits and Cousins is still at the age for QBs where they enter their prime

I sort of feel like you need to find the outliers to win a Super Bowl though, if it isn’t Brady, Brees and Manning then you need a QB on a rookie salary and to be so dominant everywhere else and to do things differently or else you need all of the stars to align. You can’t fill a team like stay the Patriots without Brady and expect to beat teams like the Patriots. You can’t pay a QB substantially more than Brady and expect to match or exceed them. To be fair, we should be capable of generating a defense that exceeds the Patriots. And if you look at our team at a point in the cycle of signing a bridge QB somewhere between Favre and McNabb or Matt Cassel you can see that it has moved forward. We have a substantially bigger window with more youth and a better core moving forward than with Favre and Cousins is a better QB than McNabb or Cassel and better than Favre his final year. We still are probably moving in the right direction but ultimately we have to fix the OL.

We’ve managed our cap and draft picks so well until we decided to trade for Bradford and then sign Cousins. We have very thin margin of error going forward that will get thinner if we continue favoring now over flexibility.
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Re: Just Kidding Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:34 pm

mike2mike wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:18 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:03 pm


I know you're kidding dude. It was more along the line of where do you find "that player" you're referring to is all I'm asking?
I don’t know. Hard to know if Keenum was a product of making a big leap as a result of the virtual reality reps and coaching and going from a bad supporting cast to a good one at the same time the Rams offense in a very short time suddenly became a good supporting cast, or just a fluke. Harder to call guys like that flukes when the Eagles with Foles see so much success and to some degree even when Goff, Trubiski, Baker Mayfield, Pat Mahommes

do know that QBs finding success seemingly out of nowhere is less and less uncommon. Teams have gotten good at incorporáing college plays and high schools and colleges have been good at running more pro style offense. NFL rules has protected QBs so that they have long careers while the number of quality options available increases. That could have it’s limits and Cousins is still at the age for QBs where they enter their prime

I sort of feel like you need to find the outliers to win a Super Bowl though, if it isn’t Brady, Brees and Manning then you need a QB on a rookie salary and to be so dominant everywhere else and to do things differently or else you need all of the stars to align. You can’t fill a team like stay the Patriots without Brady and expect to beat teams like the Patriots. You can’t pay a QB substantially more than Brady and expect to match or exceed them. To be fair, we should be capable of generating a defense that exceeds the Patriots. And if you look at our team at a point in the cycle of signing a bridge QB somewhere between Favre and McNabb or Matt Cassel you can see that it has moved forward. We have a substantially bigger window with more youth and a better core moving forward than with Favre and Cousins is a better QB than McNabb or Cassel and better than Favre his final year. We still are probably moving in the right direction but ultimately we have to fix the OL.

We’ve managed our cap and draft picks so well until we decided to trade for Bradford and then sign Cousins. We have very thin margin of error going forward that will get thinner if we continue favoring now over flexibility.
I would definitely say it was a fluke. He had a pretty darn good supporting cast this year in Denver. Up until week 9, his WRs were Thomas, Sanders and Sutton. He had a decent OL and an excellent running game. Their defense was fairly solid as well. And in turn, outside of some of the rookie QBs, Keenum was one of the worst, if not the worst starting QB in the NFL this year. It's not like he went from the Vikings to the Raiders. The Broncos had enough talent there to at least be somewhat successful
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Re: Just Kidding Offseason

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:44 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:34 pm


I would definitely say it was a fluke. He had a pretty darn good supporting cast this year in Denver. Up until week 9, his WRs were Thomas, Sanders and Sutton. He had a decent OL and an excellent running game. Their defense was fairly solid as well. And in turn, outside of some of the rookie QBs, Keenum was one of the worst, if not the worst starting QB in the NFL this year. It's not like he went from the Vikings to the Raiders. The Broncos had enough talent there to at least be somewhat successful
I agree with what you are saying to those that blame Cousins for our losing season. There were many other issues. As far as Keenum, I still think you're being extra hard on him. I have Sunday ticket (need it to watch the Vikings) and watched quote a few of the Bronco games, especially a lot of the early ones. The receivers were awful. Dropping passes like crazy. And running bad routes too. It was addressed in a press conference that there was lots miscommunication on called pass plays and they seemed to elude to the fact that it wasn't Keenum's fault. As games went on, Keenum started to do what most competitors do. They try to do too much. So he threw some ill advised passes. I'd be fine having him as my QB.
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Re: Just Kidding Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:10 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:44 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:34 pm


I would definitely say it was a fluke. He had a pretty darn good supporting cast this year in Denver. Up until week 9, his WRs were Thomas, Sanders and Sutton. He had a decent OL and an excellent running game. Their defense was fairly solid as well. And in turn, outside of some of the rookie QBs, Keenum was one of the worst, if not the worst starting QB in the NFL this year. It's not like he went from the Vikings to the Raiders. The Broncos had enough talent there to at least be somewhat successful
I agree with what you are saying to those that blame Cousins for our losing season. There were many other issues. As far as Keenum, I still think you're being extra hard on him. I have Sunday ticket (need it to watch the Vikings) and watched quote a few of the Bronco games, especially a lot of the early ones. The receivers were awful. Dropping passes like crazy. And running bad routes too. It was addressed in a press conference that there was lots miscommunication on called pass plays and they seemed to elude to the fact that it wasn't Keenum's fault. As games went on, Keenum started to do what most competitors do. They try to do too much. So he threw some ill advised passes. I'd be fine having him as my QB.
I have Sunday ticket as well. Watched Keenum plenty of times. Denver was 2nd in the NFL in dropped passes yes, but the Vikings were 8th and 1st in the NFC. There was only a difference of 7 dropped passes between us and Denver. The Patriots and Chiefs were 5th and 6th and they were in the AFC Championship. Dropped passes have very little to do with Keenums poor play.
Without Stefon Diggs and Adam Thielen at his side, Keenum fell flat in Denver. His absurd play under pressure a year ago wasn’t sustained through the 2018 season, and his play from a clean pocket wasn’t enough to sustain drives consistently and put points on the board in an era of football where 30 points are often not enough.
Keenum was throwing ill advised passes all season. Not just at years end. He had at least one interception in the first 8 games of the season. One game with 3. He also had FIVE games without a TD pass. Three of them before week 9 when he had most of his weapons. That is not good. In any way, shape or form. And you're saying Keenum wasnt on the same page with his WRs? Was Cousins? It sure seemed like he wasnt in year 1 either. But all I know is, 18 TDs: 15 INTs and 11 fumbles in 16 games is pretty pitiful if you ask me. That is a Case Keenum season though. That's how they all were outside of the fluke in 2017. Nobody should be satisfied with that stat line. No less, the one guy that made him into what he was last year (Shurmur) is no longer here. I agree with Cris Carter regarding what he said about Keenum about halfway through the season...."The Vikings would have 2 wins with Case Keenum at QB".
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Re: Just Kidding Offseason

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:03 pm

I wish I could find the statement I mentioned above. I think it came in Week 5 (maybe 6) after another Denver loss. Keenum had gone three or four weeks in a row without a TD but had thrown interceptions in all those games. The coach said something like {Case has taken some heat, but let me tell you it's not on him. There is some miscommunication, and it's not on Case. When you throw to a spot, you expect your receiver to be there ready to catch a ball. When they're not, the ball ends up in an opposing defenders hands} That's not a quote but from what I remember, it's pretty close.

Having watched a lot of those games, I also saw several interceptions go though or bounce off the hands of receivers and being picked. I really don't know why I feel the need to defend Keenum. I see it one way...you see it another. It really doesn't matter. Cousins is our QB, and what's important now is that he can be the one that takes us to the promised land.
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Re: Just Kidding Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:02 am

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:03 pm
I wish I could find the statement I mentioned above. I think it came in Week 5 (maybe 6) after another Denver loss. Keenum had gone three or four weeks in a row without a TD but had thrown interceptions in all those games. The coach said something like {Case has taken some heat, but let me tell you it's not on him. There is some miscommunication, and it's not on Case. When you throw to a spot, you expect your receiver to be there ready to catch a ball. When they're not, the ball ends up in an opposing defenders hands} That's not a quote but from what I remember, it's pretty close.

Having watched a lot of those games, I also saw several interceptions go though or bounce off the hands of receivers and being picked. I really don't know why I feel the need to defend Keenum. I see it one way...you see it another. It really doesn't matter. Cousins is our QB, and what's important now is that he can be the one that takes us to the promised land.
Agreed. I respect that. I just watched Keenum for quite a while (my father is a die hard Rams fan) and he's literally had one good season. In 7 seasons. I just cant trust that. Ever. There is a very high chance he was simply a product of Shurmur's system. I think Foles is a product of Philly's system. I dont think he's a good QB. We will find out when he goes somewhere new next year. Although at least Foles had a good season with Philly under different coaches years back. Keenum never had anything like that. I mean I remember specifically Treadwell's drop and Murray's drop were two INTs that werent on him. Or Diggs stopping his route vs. NO. There are more. Cousins wasnt on the same page as our WRs either. It became more obvious when you saw him and Thielen arguing in week 17. I want to see Cousins with another year under his belt with both Diggs and Thielen and a better OL. That will be the true tell
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