Vikings looking to retain Priefer

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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:01 pm

Cliff wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:39 pm
He doesn't get to pick the kickers but didn't Carlson turn it around on the Raiders and end up having a great season?

Do the Raiders just have that much superior of a snapper and holder? Why does it seem like the longer a kicker is with the Vikings the worse they get?
Im guessing because Priefer screws them up. Much like a pitching coach can mess up a talented pitcher in baseball. Preifer, not being fired, means there little to no chance of seeing a decent GM here for at least a year, and the way the Wilfs handle the team, until his next contract expires.
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Cliff » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:39 am

Mothman wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:58 pm
Cliff wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:39 pm
He doesn't get to pick the kickers but didn't Carlson turn it around on the Raiders and end up having a great season?
He went 16 of 17 in Oakland and hit all his extra points this season (with both teams).
And a perfect 3 for 3 on 50+
Well, Cliff, Carlson was only with the Vikings for 2 regular season games... ;)
So what we're saying here is that the team (heavily relying on Priefer's input I assume) got rid of a rookie 2 games into the season thereby dropping a player that ended up actually being good and wasting a draft pick. Score one for Priefer! ;)

Honestly it doesn't look great on Zimmer either who I'm betting wouldn't drop a 5th round rookie CB after getting burned 2-3 times in a game for TDs.

I was thinking more about Blair Walsh when thinking of kickers getting worse. Of course he's reported to have his own problems, missed a game winner for SEA too, and is subsequently out of the league. He came into the league seemingly knowing what he was doing though. Made 92.1% of his FGs including 10/10 at 50+ and 100% of XPs. Then his FG% gets worse every year. I'm not saying it's coaching with 100% certainty (obviously I don't actually know) but it doesn't look great for Priefer given how bad the kicking game has been under him.

Walsh.PNG
As I said, I'm playing devil's advocate here but the majority of NFL kickers who attempted FGs in the 40-49 yard range missed at least one attempt from that range this season. It's not unusual so I think Carlson may have simply missed two long kicks in GB (one in OT) and, after that, succumbed to the pressure of making the third, shorter kick at the end of OT. I'm inclined to think he had a bad game rather than he was so poorly coached that he went 1-4 in MN and then had his game immediately fixed by superior coaching in Oakland. That seems unlikely to me but maybe that's exactly what happened.
He didn't get coached up that quickly by the Raiders but he did seek outside coaching before signing so it sounds like someone had enough coaching know-how to fix him a bit. Not the Vikings staff though.

How Raiders kicker Daniel Carlson re-ignited his NFL career
After his two-day public humiliation of sorts, Carlson and his wife hopped in the car. They drove three hours south to Ankeny, Iowa, the home of renowned special teams guru Jamie Kohl. Carlson spent four days with Kohl making technical adjustments, namely to the length of his strides preceding kicks. Kohl actually wanted Carlson unemployed for at least a month so he could fine-tune his new mechanics instead of test them in high-pressure situations right away.

Carlson says things he wanted to work on because he didn’t have time in between the end of his senior season and the beginning of the NFL season to shorten his strides before kicks, with the combine, pro day, private workouts and training camp affording little time to overhaul mechanics. Now he had no job, and time to alter the distance at which he took his three steps back and two to the side.

Kohl said he noticed this flaw back in February, that Carlson’s elongated strides only helped make kicks in practice but not in games, when compact run-ups help combat charging NFL defensive linemen. Kohl, who has known Carlson for almost a decade, brought in long-snappers and holders to help. Carlson and his wife stayed with Kohl’s family for the final three days of a four-day workout. Normally Carlson wouldn’t kick on back-to-back days, but he wanted to for muscle memory. Over those four days he shortened his strides so that he stood 20 inches closer to the ball when he reached set position.
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Mothman » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:00 am

Cliff wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:39 am
And a perfect 3 for 3 on 50+
He'll probably never miss from long range again just to make me look bad for making that comment about kickers missing from 40+. :tongue:
So what we're saying here is that the team (heavily relying on Priefer's input I assume) got rid of a rookie 2 games into the season thereby dropping a player that ended up actually being good and wasting a draft pick. Score one for Priefer! ;)

Honestly it doesn't look great on Zimmer either who I'm betting wouldn't drop a 5th round rookie CB after getting burned 2-3 times in a game for TDs.
No, it doesn't and it would be his call. Did he make the choice to cut Carlson with heavy input from Priefer? I wonder... Zimmer was pretty flippant about it after the game. I'm guessing that was mainly his call.
I honestly was thinking more about Blair Walsh when thinking of kickers getting worse. Of course he's reported to have his own problems and missed a game winner for SEA too and is subsequently out of the league. He came into the league seemingly knowing what he was doing though. Made 92.1% of his FGs including 10/10 at 50+ and 100% of XPs. Then his FG% gets worse every year. I'm not saying it's coaching with 100% certainty (obviously I don't actually know) but it doesn't look great for Priefer given how bad the kicking game has been under him.
True, but Walsh came into the league after missing a lot of kicks in his last year of college football so did Priefer correct aspects of his game and help him have that strong rookie season or did Priefer ruin him after that? I don't know.
He didn't get coached up that quickly by the Raiders but he did seek outside coaching before signing so it sounds like someone had enough coaching know-how to fix him a bit.

How Raiders kicker Daniel Carlson re-ignited his NFL career
After his two-day public humiliation of sorts, Carlson and his wife hopped in the car. They drove three hours south to Ankeny, Iowa, the home of renowned special teams guru Jamie Kohl. Carlson spent four days with Kohl making technical adjustments, namely to the length of his strides preceding kicks. Kohl actually wanted Carlson unemployed for at least a month so he could fine-tune his new mechanics instead of test them in high-pressure situations right away.

Carlson says things he wanted to work on because he didn’t have time in between the end of his senior season and the beginning of the NFL season to shorten his strides before kicks, with the combine, pro day, private workouts and training camp affording little time to overhaul mechanics. Now he had no job, and time to alter the distance at which he took his three steps back and two to the side.

Kohl said he noticed this flaw back in February, that Carlson’s elongated strides only helped make kicks in practice but not in games, when compact run-ups help combat charging NFL defensive linemen. Kohl, who has known Carlson for almost a decade, brought in long-snappers and holders to help. Carlson and his wife stayed with Kohl’s family for the final three days of a four-day workout. Normally Carlson wouldn’t kick on back-to-back days, but he wanted to for muscle memory. Over those four days he shortened his strides so that he stood 20 inches closer to the ball when he reached set position.
That's interesting. I didn't know that. His game needed some fixing.

It's also weird. Carlson implies he didn't have time to change those mechanics between the end of his senior season and the start of the NFL season but he was able to fix them in 4 days with Kohl? That doesn't exactly add up, does it?
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Mothman » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:04 am

Cliff, I just found this article (apologies if someone shared it already and I just overlooked it).

Here's what Priefer had to say about his kickers:
“If you remember Blair Walsh was a 60 percent kicker his senior year in college and he went to the Pro Bowl his rookie year, he had a phenomenal year and his second year was pretty good even though he got banged up,” Priefer said. “What happened with Blair, in my opinion, is that he lost a lot of weight. He was trying to be more fit, and when he lost the weight he lost the strength. He lost the strength, he changed his technique and then he wasn’t as successful. That’s something I tried to stop and didn’t get it stopped.”
Carlson has moved on to Oakland and quickly become one of the NFL’s most accurate kickers, hitting 10 of 11 as a Raider.

“It doesn’t surprise me,” Priefer said. “I know they’ve been talking about his technique and all that stuff, that’s what we did here. He was really long when he got here and we worked really hard all spring and summer long into making him a compact approach. I think he had one bad game and it was more mental than physical. He’s a really good kicker. I’m happy for him.”
One more quote:
He did joke that he won’t be applying for any jobs as a mental coach.

“I’m not a mental coach, in fact, if he needs a mental coach, he needs to go elsewhere, I’d be the last guy, you can ask my kids, I’d be the last guy to be a mental coach expert, I’m a little emotional, I get a little fired up,” Priefer said.
Maybe that's part of the problem? Is he tougher on some of these kickers than they can handle?
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Cliff » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:13 am

Mothman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:00 am
True, but Walsh came into the league after missing a lot of kicks in his last year of college football so did Priefer correct aspects of his game and help him have that strong rookie season or did Priefer ruin him after that? I don't know.
Well Priefer certainly takes credit for him doing better from college to the pros but basically dumps the decline on Walsh. Saying he lost some weight and changed his mechanics. So I guess the first year he took Preifer's advice but then after having so much success his first year he decided to start ignoring him? :?
Mothman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:00 am
It's also weird. Carlson implies he didn't have time to change those mechanics between the end of his senior season and the start of the NFL season but he was able to fix them in 4 days with Kohl? That doesn't exactly add up, does it?
I think it implies that he didn't know how to do it himself and that nobody on the Vikings knew to tell him to change it in practice.

According to Kohl the way Carlson was kicking would have looked good in practice but not done well in games. It seems to me that he was doing great in practice and they thought he had "mental" issues in actual game/stress situations which is something that you can't fix with technique adjustments.

Instead, this other specialist was able to identify the problem very quickly (because he had already noticed it in live games) and he changed his style accordingly. It probably helped that the specialist knew him for 10 years.

That's all conjecture of course but that's what a lot of conversation here is :banana:
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Mothman » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:41 am

Cliff wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:13 am
Well Priefer certainly takes credit for him doing better from college to the pros but basically dumps the decline on Walsh. Saying he lost some weight and changed his mechanics. So I guess the first year he took Preifer's advice but then after having so much success his first year he decided to start ignoring him? :?
I don't know what the heck to make of all that either.
I think it implies that he didn't know how to do it himself and that nobody on the Vikings knew to tell him to change it in practice.
... and yet Priefer said they worked on a compact approach all spring and summer. :?
According to Kohl the way Carlson was kicking would have looked good in practice but not done well in games. It seems to me that he was doing great in practice and they thought he had "mental" issues in actual game/stress situations which is something that you can't fix with technique adjustments.

Instead, this other specialist was able to identify the problem very quickly (because he had already noticed it in live games) and he changed his style accordingly. It probably helped that the specialist knew him for 10 years.

That's all conjecture of course but that's what a lot of conversation here is :banana:
I imagine knowing him for 10 years helped.

I don't know what to make of any of it. My take is it isn't clear that Priefer's coaching of kickers and punters is a problem and it isn't clear that he's not part of the problem. I'll stick with that bold "hot take" and if the Vikings think they can improve their special teams by replacing him, I'm all for it because there's room for improvement!

Man, can I balance on this fence...
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Cliff » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:48 am

Mothman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:04 am
Cliff, I just found this article (apologies if someone shared it already and I just overlooked it).

Here's what Priefer had to say about his kickers:
“If you remember Blair Walsh was a 60 percent kicker his senior year in college and he went to the Pro Bowl his rookie year, he had a phenomenal year and his second year was pretty good even though he got banged up,” Priefer said. “What happened with Blair, in my opinion, is that he lost a lot of weight. He was trying to be more fit, and when he lost the weight he lost the strength. He lost the strength, he changed his technique and then he wasn’t as successful. That’s something I tried to stop and didn’t get it stopped.”
Carlson has moved on to Oakland and quickly become one of the NFL’s most accurate kickers, hitting 10 of 11 as a Raider.

“It doesn’t surprise me,” Priefer said. “I know they’ve been talking about his technique and all that stuff, that’s what we did here. He was really long when he got here and we worked really hard all spring and summer long into making him a compact approach. I think he had one bad game and it was more mental than physical. He’s a really good kicker. I’m happy for him.”
One more quote:
He did joke that he won’t be applying for any jobs as a mental coach.

“I’m not a mental coach, in fact, if he needs a mental coach, he needs to go elsewhere, I’d be the last guy, you can ask my kids, I’d be the last guy to be a mental coach expert, I’m a little emotional, I get a little fired up,” Priefer said.
Maybe that's part of the problem? Is he tougher on some of these kickers than they can handle?
I actually touched on this a bit responding to your other post. I had seen that article referenced but I'm not sure I buy Walsh just starting to ignore Priefer's coaching for no reason ...

The mental thing is particularly interesting to me because I think that's what he thought Carlson was; a mental case that technique adjustments couldn't fix.
Priefer wrote:I think he had one bad game and it was more mental than physical
Except it wasn't. Another specialist was able to (seemingly) correct his issues in 4 days and nights after diagnosing the problem via TV broadcast ...
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Mothman » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:59 am

Cliff wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:48 am
I actually touched on this a bit responding to your other post. I had seen that article referenced but I'm not sure I buy Walsh just starting to ignore Priefer's coaching for no reason ...

The mental thing is particularly interesting to me because I think that's what he thought Carlson was; a mental case that technique couldn't adjustments couldn't fix.
The question is: did he think that because he was coaching those adjustments and Carlson wasn't taking to them?
Except it wasn't. Another specialist was able to (seemingly) correct his issues in 4 days and nights after diagnosing the problem via TV broadcast ...
I'm not entirely sure whose case that supports. 4 days isn't very long and it sounds like Priefer had identified the same problems so maybe they were able to fix it quickly because they were finishing work that had essentially been underway already. Heck, maybe the different level of comfort with Kohl (and being completely removed from the pressures of being on an NFL team) made all the difference. After all, Carlson was a rookie trying to make the team in the summer. He had a bad preseason game right after they made the decision to keep him over Forbath. 2 of the 3 kicks he missed in GB were in OT. It sees quite plausible that some of his problem was in his head. Once the pressure was off, maybe he just relaxed enough to do a better job of taking in and implementing coaching. After all, that article you quoted contained the following:
Kohl actually wanted Carlson unemployed for at least a month so he could fine-tune his new mechanics instead of test them in high-pressure situations right away.
We're likely never getting answers to any of these questions and it doesn't seem like the Vikings intend to replace Priefer this offseason so we'll see how it works out with Bailey or whichever kicker they go with in 2019...
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Cliff » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:01 am

Mothman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:41 am
... and yet Priefer said they worked on a compact approach all spring and summer. :?
Perhaps but he is saying it within an article that's basically asking "Why do the Vikings kickers suck? Is it your fault? If not, why is Carlson doing better on the Raiders?"

I doubt he'd say "Yeah, I completely missed the whole stride length thing with Carlson. Too bad, he's a really good kicker."
I imagine knowing him for 10 years helped.

I don't know what to make of any of it. My take is it isn't clear that Priefer's coaching of kickers and punters is a problem and it isn't clear that he's not part of the problem. I'll stick with that bold "hot take" and if the Vikings think they can improve their special teams by replacing him, I'm all for it because there's room for improvement!

Man, can I balance on this fence...
I actually think Priefer's special teams unit is pretty good outside of kicker so it would be nice if that could be corrected. Perhaps they can bring in someone just to coach kicking rather than the entire unit? Maybe look into the Kohl guy :lol:
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Mothman » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:17 am

Cliff wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:01 am
Mothman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:41 am
... and yet Priefer said they worked on a compact approach all spring and summer. :?
Perhaps but he is saying it within an article that's basically asking "Why do the Vikings kickers suck? Is it your fault? If not, why is Carlson doing better on the Raiders?"

I doubt he'd say "Yeah, I completely missed the whole stride length thing with Carlson. Too bad, he's a really good kicker."
True but I'm not willing to assume he responded in bad faith.
I actually think Priefer's special teams unit is pretty good outside of kicker so it would be nice if that could be corrected. Perhaps they can bring in someone just to coach kicking rather than the entire unit? Maybe look into the Kohl guy :lol:
Not a bad idea!

I still think it's possible that they just need a better caliber of kicker or a little more patience with a young kicker.
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Cliff » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:53 am

Mothman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:17 am
True but I'm not willing to assume he responded in bad faith.
Of course I don't know if he was or not. One of them is misremembering though. Carlson doesn't think he spent time on this stuff during practice? Priefer says they were actually working on that all summer and I guess the insinuation is it didn't "click" for him?

Considering the turnaround I'm more inclined to believe Carlson.
Not a bad idea!

I still think it's possible that they just need a better caliber of kicker or a little more patience with a young kicker.
Maybe but it seems like Walsh *was* a pretty good caliber of kicker until ... ? Carlson apparently actually has the skill. I dunno, it just seems like Priefer has issues with kicker. Maybe it is a mental/attitude issue with him instead of base line coaching.
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by PurpleMustReign » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:30 pm

Fyi, the Vikings will kot go undefeated next season. Carlson will Beat them on a last second kick. Book it.
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Mothman » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:35 pm

Cliff wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:53 am
Mothman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:17 am
True but I'm not willing to assume he responded in bad faith.
Of course I don't know if he was or not. One of them is misremembering though. Carlson doesn't think he spent time on this stuff during practice? Priefer says they were actually working on that all summer and I guess the insinuation is it didn't "click" for him?

Considering the turnaround I'm more inclined to believe Carlson.
I lean in the other direction. If Kohl's suggestion that Carlson take some time off is any indication, it seems clear there was a psychological aspect involved, not just a mechanical aspect. I still think the most likely explanation for Carlson's season is that he simply had a bad game, was cut by an impatient head coach, and rebounded in a different situation. Priefer's coaching might not have had anything to do with it.

Priefer is the son of a special teams coach and has a lot of experience coaching special teams himself. It's just hard for me to believe he completely overlooked something so fundamental in Carlson's game.

Something else to think about: unless we attribute Carlson's solid partial season in Oakland entirely to the work he did between teams with Kohl, how can we attribute his performance in Oakland to superior coaching if we use the same criteria being used to evaluate Priefer? After all, Carlson was signed to replace Matt McCrane after the latter went 5 for 9 to start the season. Was Carlson well-coached in Oakland but McCrane wasn't?

My head's starting to spin...
Maybe but it seems like Walsh *was* a pretty good caliber of kicker until ... ?
Who knows? Weight loss? Loss of confidence? He's a talented kicker but if you look over his college and pro career, he doesn't stand out as consistent, despite a few strong seasons. Maybe he's just inconsistent.
Carlson apparently actually has the skill. I dunno, it just seems like Priefer has issues with kicker. Maybe it is a mental/attitude issue with him instead of base line coaching.
I really think the most likely explanation is the simplest: it's the kickers. Priefer's had two rookies, Carlson (cut really quickly) and Walsh (see inconsistency mentioned above) and two mid-season replacements. I would hope most of us can agree that signing a kicker during the season isn't the best way to get a top notch, reliable kicker.

It's always been a hard position to fill with a consistent, reliable player in the NFL.
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:39 pm

Mothman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:35 pm
I really think the most likely explanation is the simplest: it's the kickers. Priefer's had two rookies, Carlson (cut really quickly) and Walsh (see inconsistency mentioned above) and two mid-season replacements. I would hope most of us can agree that signing a kicker during the season isn't the best way to get a top notch, reliable kicker.

It's always been a hard position to fill with a consistent, reliable player in the NFL.
Have to agree with you, Jim.

Here's the other thing. From what I understand, Matt Wile never held in college, and he was pretty inexperienced in the pros, with only 8 NFL games before coming to the Vikings. That could have had a lot to do with the struggles of both Carlson and Bailey. And if you look at Bailey, he made his last 14 kicks this season, which suggests that perhaps Wile was improving as a holder.

And speaking of Matt Wile, he was one of the unsung heroes of the Vikings this season. His game against the Bears in Week 17 was one of the best I've ever seen a punter have. He repeatedly flipped the field and kept the Vikings in the game for a lot longer than they deserved. That 70-yarder from the back of his own end zone was just phenomenal. And Wile got better and better as the season went on. It's not wrong to say we've had trouble with kickers, but it's also not wrong to give credit where it's due. Wile was excellent for us this year, and I sure hope we keep him going forward.
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Re: Vikings looking to retain Priefer

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:33 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:39 pm
Have to agree with you, Jim.

Here's the other thing. From what I understand, Matt Wile never held in college, and he was pretty inexperienced in the pros, with only 8 NFL games before coming to the Vikings. That could have had a lot to do with the struggles of both Carlson and Bailey. And if you look at Bailey, he made his last 14 kicks this season, which suggests that perhaps Wile was improving as a holder.
Excellent point.
And speaking of Matt Wile, he was one of the unsung heroes of the Vikings this season. His game against the Bears in Week 17 was one of the best I've ever seen a punter have. He repeatedly flipped the field and kept the Vikings in the game for a lot longer than they deserved. That 70-yarder from the back of his own end zone was just phenomenal. And Wile got better and better as the season went on. It's not wrong to say we've had trouble with kickers, but it's also not wrong to give credit where it's due. Wile was excellent for us this year, and I sure hope we keep him going forward.
Especially if he keeps punting like that. You're right, he was outstanding in that last game against the Bears. I mentioned that to a friend after the game. He really did help keep them in it.
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