Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by TSonn » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:30 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:03 pm
Here's what I don't understand.

Over the first half of the season, Kirk Cousins was among the best in the NFL when under pressure. All the PFF stats and other stats bore it out.

But as the season wore on, he obviously regressed.

What happened?

And please don't just say, "Cousins is a pansy" or "Cousins simply sucks," or some other non-analytical comment. What specifically have you guys noticed first half to second half of the season? Did our O-line get worse? Is that even possible? Did our receivers stop getting open? Did Cousins start getting gun-shy of all the hits? Cuz I'm at a loss.
That's why I think something changed from the coaching - either JDF or Zimmer. We went into the bye looking pretty solid on both sides of the ball and I expected them to come out hot and go on a run. Instead we got a flat team basically the rest of the season. My thought at the time was that there were internal issues between Zimmer and JDF with the team caught in the middle not knowing who to follow. Total speculation, of course.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:09 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:52 pm
I know Kirk is the QB and so most blame will fall to him, but I do not think he was the biggest reason we ended the season the way we did. This year was more about what happened in the offensive coaching room than anything else. Hiring JDF was a colossal error. This was compounded when Sparano died and Easton went on IR. It was all downhill from there. Sparano was a HUGE loss. Consider that he was a former HC. He could have been providing valuable guidance and support to JDF had he been there.

Add in ST issues and early season defensive eggs and that is the 2018 season in a nutshell.

IMO, the biggest issues facing this team are the hiring/selection process for Offensive coaches and the development of OL players. Zimmer isn't going to suddenly become this miracle manger, that isn't who he is. And look, lots of coaches are play callers. Doug Pedersen called the plays in PHI when they won the SB. They need to find somebody who can compliment ZIM and run the offensive show. My fear is that so far they haven't figured out how to identify what THAT guy looks like.
I just got married New Year’s Eve and I’m on my honeymoon in Jamaica so I haven’t been on here at all but this is how I look at things.

I said a few weeks ago, it didn’t matter how the season ended, the blame was going to fall on Cousins on here. Whether the season ended like it did or we lost in the nfc championship game, the finger was going to be pointed at cousins which I think is wrong. There were PLENTY of other issues. I mean something as simple as Daniel Carlson making that field goal vs GB. He makes that, Philly has no shot at the playoffs. We get in at 9-7. Does cousins deserve some blame? Sure. But think about it, a lot of guys took a step back on this team. Rhodes took a giant step back, griffen went awol, offensive line crapped the bed, Rudy took a step back, we couldn’t get a run game going due to our OC, Flip alone was a disaster and nothing compared to shurmur, the schedule was tougher, special teams was a disaster and Zim even took a step back.

If Case Keenum was a game away from a SB, you can’t tell me Cousins can’t be with the right system. Keenum was a dumpster fire this year. He was a product of shurmurs system. The OL playing better was a product of shurmurs system and had better players, etc. This team had plenty of issues this year.

What bothers me, are fans that are unable to recognize the multiple problems with this team this year and want to just complain about cousins. There is SO much more to this than cousins. The team in general underperformed. The coach underperformed, the OC drastically underperformed, Spielman underperformed in regards to the OL and thinking Remmers and Compton were good choices. The O’Neill pick was solid but he has to keep it going. But either way, Kirk cousins isn’t this teams problem. Saying “we gave 84 million to a guy and we didn’t repeat last years success or get to a SB so it’s on Cousins” is so ridiculous it’s not even funny. It’s not that simple and it’s such a bogus way to look at things. It’s goes way deeper than all that. I’m just hoping we right the ship and get a good offensive mind here.

Happy New Years and cheers from Jamaica!
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:11 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:09 pm
mansquatch wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:52 pm
I know Kirk is the QB and so most blame will fall to him, but I do not think he was the biggest reason we ended the season the way we did. This year was more about what happened in the offensive coaching room than anything else. Hiring JDF was a colossal error. This was compounded when Sparano died and Easton went on IR. It was all downhill from there. Sparano was a HUGE loss. Consider that he was a former HC. He could have been providing valuable guidance and support to JDF had he been there.

Add in ST issues and early season defensive eggs and that is the 2018 season in a nutshell.

IMO, the biggest issues facing this team are the hiring/selection process for Offensive coaches and the development of OL players. Zimmer isn't going to suddenly become this miracle manger, that isn't who he is. And look, lots of coaches are play callers. Doug Pedersen called the plays in PHI when they won the SB. They need to find somebody who can compliment ZIM and run the offensive show. My fear is that so far they haven't figured out how to identify what THAT guy looks like.
I just got married New Year’s Eve and I’m on my honeymoon in Jamaica so I haven’t been on here at all but this is how I look at things.

I said a few weeks ago, it didn’t matter how the season ended, the blame was going to fall on Cousins on here. Whether the season ended like it did or we lost in the nfc championship game, the finger was going to be pointed at cousins which I think is wrong. There were PLENTY of other issues. I mean something as simple as Daniel Carlson making that field goal vs GB. He makes that, Philly has no shot at the playoffs. We get in at 9-7. Does cousins deserve some blame? Sure. But think about it, a lot of guys took a step back on this team. Rhodes took a giant step back, griffen went awol, offensive line crapped the bed, Rudy took a step back, we couldn’t get a run game going due to our OC, Flip alone was a disaster and nothing compared to shurmur, the schedule was tougher, special teams was a disaster and Zim even took a step back.

If Case Keenum was a game away from a SB, you can’t tell me Cousins can’t be with the right system. Keenum was a dumpster fire this year. He was a product of shurmurs system. The OL playing better was a product of shurmurs system and had better players, etc. This team had plenty of issues this year.

What bothers me, are fans that are unable to recognize the multiple problems with this team this year and want to just complain about cousins. There is SO much more to this than cousins. The team in general underperformed. The coach underperformed, the OC drastically underperformed, Spielman underperformed in regards to the OL and thinking Remmers and Compton were good choices. The O’Neill pick was solid but he has to keep it going. But either way, Kirk cousins isn’t this teams problem. Saying “we gave 84 million to a guy and we didn’t repeat last years success or get to a SB so it’s on Cousins” is so ridiculous it’s not even funny. It’s not that simple and it’s such a bogus way to look at things. It’s goes way deeper than all that. I’m just hoping we right the ship and get a good offensive mind here.

Happy New Years and cheers from Jamaica!
Here's a stat I didn't realize until I read it online.

Last year, starters on the Vikings' defense combined to miss 8 games. This year, it was 38.

And the schedule. All our tough games except for New Orleans and Chicago were on the road. LA, Philly, New England, Seattle, Chicago. Five out of eight games on the road were against playoff teams. The Bears, on the other hand, played only three playoff teams on their entire schedule -- New England, LA and Seattle -- and they played them all at home. I realize the Bears played a last-place schedule, and we weren't going to beat them out for the division, anyway. But we had a pretty brutal schedule by comparison.

Combine all this with the things PHP mentioned, and it's not a surprise we missed the playoffs.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Mothman » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:09 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:09 pm
I just got married New Year’s Eve and I’m on my honeymoon in Jamaica...
Congratulations!
What bothers me, are fans that are unable to recognize the multiple problems with this team this year and want to just complain about cousins. There is SO much more to this than cousins.
The vast majority of fans here recognize that. Maybe there's one or two putting blame for the Vikings season solely on Cousins and and I'm forgetting them but that's not the general tenor of the discussion here on the board in the wake of the Vikings season-ending loss. People are discussing all sorts of issues with the team, including those you mentioned.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:20 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:11 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:09 pm


I just got married New Year’s Eve and I’m on my honeymoon in Jamaica so I haven’t been on here at all but this is how I look at things.

I said a few weeks ago, it didn’t matter how the season ended, the blame was going to fall on Cousins on here. Whether the season ended like it did or we lost in the nfc championship game, the finger was going to be pointed at cousins which I think is wrong. There were PLENTY of other issues. I mean something as simple as Daniel Carlson making that field goal vs GB. He makes that, Philly has no shot at the playoffs. We get in at 9-7. Does cousins deserve some blame? Sure. But think about it, a lot of guys took a step back on this team. Rhodes took a giant step back, griffen went awol, offensive line crapped the bed, Rudy took a step back, we couldn’t get a run game going due to our OC, Flip alone was a disaster and nothing compared to shurmur, the schedule was tougher, special teams was a disaster and Zim even took a step back.

If Case Keenum was a game away from a SB, you can’t tell me Cousins can’t be with the right system. Keenum was a dumpster fire this year. He was a product of shurmurs system. The OL playing better was a product of shurmurs system and had better players, etc. This team had plenty of issues this year.

What bothers me, are fans that are unable to recognize the multiple problems with this team this year and want to just complain about cousins. There is SO much more to this than cousins. The team in general underperformed. The coach underperformed, the OC drastically underperformed, Spielman underperformed in regards to the OL and thinking Remmers and Compton were good choices. The O’Neill pick was solid but he has to keep it going. But either way, Kirk cousins isn’t this teams problem. Saying “we gave 84 million to a guy and we didn’t repeat last years success or get to a SB so it’s on Cousins” is so ridiculous it’s not even funny. It’s not that simple and it’s such a bogus way to look at things. It’s goes way deeper than all that. I’m just hoping we right the ship and get a good offensive mind here.

Happy New Years and cheers from Jamaica!
Here's a stat I didn't realize until I read it online.

Last year, starters on the Vikings' defense combined to miss 8 games. This year, it was 38.

And the schedule. All our tough games except for New Orleans and Chicago were on the road. LA, Philly, New England, Seattle, Chicago. Five out of eight games on the road were against playoff teams. The Bears, on the other hand, played only three playoff teams on their entire schedule -- New England, LA and Seattle -- and they played them all at home. I realize the Bears played a last-place schedule, and we weren't going to beat them out for the division, anyway. But we had a pretty brutal schedule by comparison.

Combine all this with the things PHP mentioned, and it's not a surprise we missed the playoffs.
Wow didn’t realize that stat! Pretty crazy
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by PurpleMustReign » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:17 am

Mothman wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:09 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:09 pm
I just got married New Year’s Eve and I’m on my honeymoon in Jamaica...
Congratulations!
What bothers me, are fans that are unable to recognize the multiple problems with this team this year and want to just complain about cousins. There is SO much more to this than cousins.
The vast majority of fans here recognize that. Maybe there's one or two putting blame for the Vikings season solely on Cousins and and I'm forgetting them but that's not the general tenor of the discussion here on the board in the wake of the Vikings season-ending loss. People are discussing all sorts of issues with the team, including those you mentioned.
Agreed. There are four or five threads of issues and while most also mention Cousins, it's clear almost everyone here knows there are multiple problems. In fact I think the OL is the most talked about problem.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:13 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:03 pm
Here's what I don't understand.

Over the first half of the season, Kirk Cousins was among the best in the NFL when under pressure. All the PFF stats and other stats bore it out.

But as the season wore on, he obviously regressed.

What happened?

And please don't just say, "Cousins is a pansy" or "Cousins simply sucks," or some other non-analytical comment. What specifically have you guys noticed first half to second half of the season? Did our O-line get worse? Is that even possible? Did our receivers stop getting open? Did Cousins start getting gun-shy of all the hits? Cuz I'm at a loss.
Here is what happened, Cousins sucks...just kidding.

I think the reality is that they stopped enforcing the stupid roughing the passer rules as much, and pass rushers actually were able to go all out. It is a lot easier to stand in there and make a throw when you know the guy coming at you can't hit you.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:20 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:09 pm
mansquatch wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:52 pm
I know Kirk is the QB and so most blame will fall to him, but I do not think he was the biggest reason we ended the season the way we did. This year was more about what happened in the offensive coaching room than anything else. Hiring JDF was a colossal error. This was compounded when Sparano died and Easton went on IR. It was all downhill from there. Sparano was a HUGE loss. Consider that he was a former HC. He could have been providing valuable guidance and support to JDF had he been there.

Add in ST issues and early season defensive eggs and that is the 2018 season in a nutshell.

IMO, the biggest issues facing this team are the hiring/selection process for Offensive coaches and the development of OL players. Zimmer isn't going to suddenly become this miracle manger, that isn't who he is. And look, lots of coaches are play callers. Doug Pedersen called the plays in PHI when they won the SB. They need to find somebody who can compliment ZIM and run the offensive show. My fear is that so far they haven't figured out how to identify what THAT guy looks like.
I just got married New Year’s Eve and I’m on my honeymoon in Jamaica so I haven’t been on here at all but this is how I look at things.

I said a few weeks ago, it didn’t matter how the season ended, the blame was going to fall on Cousins on here. Whether the season ended like it did or we lost in the nfc championship game, the finger was going to be pointed at cousins which I think is wrong. There were PLENTY of other issues. I mean something as simple as Daniel Carlson making that field goal vs GB. He makes that, Philly has no shot at the playoffs. We get in at 9-7. Does cousins deserve some blame? Sure. But think about it, a lot of guys took a step back on this team. Rhodes took a giant step back, griffen went awol, offensive line crapped the bed, Rudy took a step back, we couldn’t get a run game going due to our OC, Flip alone was a disaster and nothing compared to shurmur, the schedule was tougher, special teams was a disaster and Zim even took a step back.

If Case Keenum was a game away from a SB, you can’t tell me Cousins can’t be with the right system. Keenum was a dumpster fire this year. He was a product of shurmurs system. The OL playing better was a product of shurmurs system and had better players, etc. This team had plenty of issues this year.

What bothers me, are fans that are unable to recognize the multiple problems with this team this year and want to just complain about cousins. There is SO much more to this than cousins. The team in general underperformed. The coach underperformed, the OC drastically underperformed, Spielman underperformed in regards to the OL and thinking Remmers and Compton were good choices. The O’Neill pick was solid but he has to keep it going. But either way, Kirk cousins isn’t this teams problem. Saying “we gave 84 million to a guy and we didn’t repeat last years success or get to a SB so it’s on Cousins” is so ridiculous it’s not even funny. It’s not that simple and it’s such a bogus way to look at things. It’s goes way deeper than all that. I’m just hoping we right the ship and get a good offensive mind here.

Happy New Years and cheers from Jamaica!
No one thinks Cousins was the entire problem, just a part of the problem.

The reason he gets so much heat is the contract and the correct impression that he was brought in to win it all in the short term. When a guy is brought in to win it all and instead misses the playoffs in part, not solely, because of how he played, people will be pissed. Especially since his contract will make it so difficult to make us better and will in fact probably make us worse.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Mothman » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:32 am

PurpleMustReign wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:25 pm
My guess is they doubled Thielen and Diggs and we don't have any real #3 who stepped up, and he got hit too much. I've never seen a QB with the scared look on his face like had.
I also think he started protecting the ball too much.
I think you're right about both the double teams and protecting the ball too much. They also ran into some good defenses and coaching staffs in the latter part of the season so I think matchups made a difference. For example, they played the Bears twice and even though NE and SEA didn't finish with highly ranked defenses, they game-planned for the Vikes offense well, got pressure and made it difficult for Cousins to find his favorite targets.

Thinking back to the first half of the year: the one really good defense Cousins faced was Buffalo and as we all know, his performance and that game ended up being pretty ugly.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by PurpleMustReign » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:45 pm

Mothman wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:32 am
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:25 pm
My guess is they doubled Thielen and Diggs and we don't have any real #3 who stepped up, and he got hit too much. I've never seen a QB with the scared look on his face like had.
I also think he started protecting the ball too much.
I think you're right about both the double teams and protecting the ball too much. They also ran into some good defenses and a coaching staffs in the latter part of the season so i think matchups made a difference. For example, they played the Bears twice and even though NE and SEA didn't finish with highly ranked defenses, they game-planned for the Vikes offense well, got pressure and made it difficult for Cousins to fins his favorite targets.

Thinking back to the first half of the year: the one really good defense Cousins faced was Buffalo and as we all know, his performance and that game ended up being pretty ugly.
Buffalo's defense wasnt good at that time but the Vikings sure helped them fix their problems didn't they?
And really, Buffalo is a great example of what Landon has been saying. For a large part of the season they had the #1 overall defense, and I am guessing finished in the top 5. Their record: 6-10. A good defense does not a good team make. You definitely need a good offense nowadays.
So, while nit is good that Zimmer has built a good statistical defense, it is not e ough, not to mention they fold under pressure.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Mothman » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:22 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:45 pm
Buffalo's defense wasnt good at that time but the Vikings sure helped them fix their problems didn't they?And really, Buffalo is a great example of what Landon has been saying. For a large part of the season they had the #1 overall defense, and I am guessing finished in the top 5.
You're correct. They finished #2.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by PurpleMustReign » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:26 pm

Mothman wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:22 pm
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:45 pm
Buffalo's defense wasnt good at that time but the Vikings sure helped them fix their problems didn't they?And really, Buffalo is a great example of what Landon has been saying. For a large part of the season they had the #1 overall defense, and I am guessing finished in the top 5.
You're correct. They finished #2.
Which is really incredible. They remind me of Jacksonville from a few years back. Great defense but poor offense. Then Jacksonville made theur run at the AFC championship game. I like buffalo's core and think they are finally righting the ship.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Mothman » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:43 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:26 pm
Which is really incredible. They remind me of Jacksonville from a few years back. Great defense but poor offense.
I think their offense turned the ball over 32 times this season!
Then Jacksonville made theur run at the AFC championship game. I like buffalo's core and think they are finally righting the ship.
If they can hang onto the ball and get their offense in better shape next season, they might even have a shot at the postseason.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by 808vikingsfan » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:18 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:45 pm
Mothman wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:32 am


I think you're right about both the double teams and protecting the ball too much. They also ran into some good defenses and a coaching staffs in the latter part of the season so i think matchups made a difference. For example, they played the Bears twice and even though NE and SEA didn't finish with highly ranked defenses, they game-planned for the Vikes offense well, got pressure and made it difficult for Cousins to fins his favorite targets.

Thinking back to the first half of the year: the one really good defense Cousins faced was Buffalo and as we all know, his performance and that game ended up being pretty ugly.
Buffalo's defense wasnt good at that time but the Vikings sure helped them fix their problems didn't they?
And really, Buffalo is a great example of what Landon has been saying. For a large part of the season they had the #1 overall defense, and I am guessing finished in the top 5. Their record: 6-10. A good defense does not a good team make. You definitely need a good offense nowadays.
So, while nit is good that Zimmer has built a good statistical defense, it is not e ough, not to mention they fold under pressure.
I don't think you need a good offense, just opportunistic one. Look at CHI. They don't have a good offense but they converted on crucial 3rd downs . Keenum was good at that last year .
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Mothman » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:45 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:18 pm
I don't think you need a good offense, just opportunistic one. Look at CHI. They don't have a good offense but they converted on crucial 3rd downs.
I actually think CHI has a good offense. They're well-coached, their running game was above average this season and they were above average in scoring too. Their passing game is a work-in-progress but overall, they were solid on that side of the ball.
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