Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:47 am

TSonn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:36 am
Not trying to be argumentative, but are there any stats that show he "had time to throw"?
There are "signature stats:" out there showing time to throw averages but honestly, their value is somewhat limited. According to this one, Cousins had an average of 2.74 seconds to throw.

Bottom line, as we could all see in games: sometimes Cousins had time to throw, as Stumphunter is saying. However, there were too many plays where he didn't have sufficient time, as many others are saying. Hopefully, we can all agree on that. Most of us who watched the games could see the o-line played poorly enough this season to be considered a genuine problem (again). The run blocking was often lousy and Cousins was under pressure enough that it can be considered an issue that really needs to be addressed, an aspect of the team that needs improvement. Cousins needs to work on his game too.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by TSonn » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:58 am

Mothman wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:47 am
TSonn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:36 am
Not trying to be argumentative, but are there any stats that show he "had time to throw"?
There are "signature stats:" out there showing time to throw averages but honestly, their value is somewhat limited. According to this one, Cousins had an average of 2.74 seconds to throw.
Interesting! If I'm reading this correctly, this stat is more a focus on time to throw rather than when the pressure came, right? As in, offenses that prioritize quick throwing (1 or 3 step drops) would have a lower time than offenses that use more 5 and 7 step drops?
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:17 pm

TSonn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:58 am
Interesting! If I'm reading this correctly, this stat is more a focus on time to throw rather than when the pressure came, right? As in, offenses that prioritize quick throwing (1 or 3 step drops) would have a lower time than offenses that use more 5 and 7 step drops?
That's correct.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:28 pm

Cousins vs. Great QB (let's use Manning because he was the very best at this):

Cousins calls pass play in huddle. Receiver A is the primary receiver on this play. He lines up, takes the snap and looks to player A. Player A looks covered...a bit of panic sets in. "Who is next in the progression? I hope my line gives me time. Oh no, he's covered too." Real panic sets in. "I gotta get out of here. They're coming for me. Oh look, there's Cook behind me. Maybe I can get the ball to him somehow.." Outcome= Play fails. Cousins looks stupid.

Manning calls play in huddle. Receiver A is the primary receiver on this play. He lines up and looks at defense. "Oh. No way is Receiver A going to be open here. Neither is Receiver B." I think Receiver C might be, but if he is covered, then Receiver D will definitely be open." Manning takes the snap and sees that coverage is going to Receiver C, and ball comes out of his hand immediately to Receiver D, who as he thought would be, was wide open. Receiver D runs for another 15 yards after carry for a total gain of 24 yards on the play.

Note: The bigger the game is (national televised, playoff, etc.) the more panic sets in with Cousins. Meanwhile, Manning is cool even when things don't go as planned because he knows that it probably will next play.

But Cousins is a nice guy.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by TSonn » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:34 pm

Mothman wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:17 pm
TSonn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:58 am
Interesting! If I'm reading this correctly, this stat is more a focus on time to throw rather than when the pressure came, right? As in, offenses that prioritize quick throwing (1 or 3 step drops) would have a lower time than offenses that use more 5 and 7 step drops?
That's correct.
Gotcha. Someone with much more free time than me should go through our passing plays and try to figure out the average time of our 1, 3, 5, 7 step drops and then figure out the time when pressure came for each of those types of passes. Seems like there'd be some good info there.

I'm genuinely curious about this Cousins vs. the offensive line debate. From the eye test it seemed like he was pressured way more often than not on his dropbacks. At least enough so that it was a surprise when he had a nice pocket to take his time and find the best passing option. As the season went on, it seemed like Cousins himself was also surprised when he had a clean pocket.
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:28 pm
Cousins vs. Great QB (let's use Manning because he was the very best at this):

Cousins calls pass play in huddle. Receiver A is the primary receiver on this play. He lines up, takes the snap and looks to player A. Player A looks covered...a bit of panic sets in. "Who is next in the progression? I hope my line gives me time. Oh no, he's covered too." Real panic sets in. "I gotta get out of here. They're coming for me. Oh look, there's Cook behind me. Maybe I can get the ball to him somehow.." Outcome= Play fails. Cousins looks stupid.

Manning calls play in huddle. Receiver A is the primary receiver on this play. He lines up and looks at defense. "Oh. No way is Receiver A going to be open here. Neither is Receiver B." I think Receiver C might be, but if he is covered, then Receiver D will definitely be open." Manning takes the snap and sees that coverage is going to Receiver C, and ball comes out of his hand immediately to Receiver D, who as he thought would be, was wide open. Receiver D runs for another 15 yards after carry for a total gain of 24 yards on the play.
That's a fun story but there's no way of knowing what's really happening at the line and in their heads. Even if there was a way to know, comparing anyone to Manning in terms of pre-snap reads is kind of futile.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:46 pm

TSonn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:58 am
Mothman wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:47 am


There are "signature stats:" out there showing time to throw averages but honestly, their value is somewhat limited. According to this one, Cousins had an average of 2.74 seconds to throw.
Interesting! If I'm reading this correctly, this stat is more a focus on time to throw rather than when the pressure came, right? As in, offenses that prioritize quick throwing (1 or 3 step drops) would have a lower time than offenses that use more 5 and 7 step drops?
That is correct. It is also not a super informative stat for a QB like Wilson who will always have a long time to throw because of his scrambling ability.

With a QB like Cousins, Brees or Brady though, if they have 3 seconds to throw, it is because the line gave them at least 3 seconds. Cousins had 3.11 seconds on Sunday, the 4th longest in the NFL, which is why he was pressured so much. He just held the ball too long.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:48 pm

TSonn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:34 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:28 pm
Cousins vs. Great QB (let's use Manning because he was the very best at this):

Cousins calls pass play in huddle. Receiver A is the primary receiver on this play. He lines up, takes the snap and looks to player A. Player A looks covered...a bit of panic sets in. "Who is next in the progression? I hope my line gives me time. Oh no, he's covered too." Real panic sets in. "I gotta get out of here. They're coming for me. Oh look, there's Cook behind me. Maybe I can get the ball to him somehow.." Outcome= Play fails. Cousins looks stupid.

Manning calls play in huddle. Receiver A is the primary receiver on this play. He lines up and looks at defense. "Oh. No way is Receiver A going to be open here. Neither is Receiver B." I think Receiver C might be, but if he is covered, then Receiver D will definitely be open." Manning takes the snap and sees that coverage is going to Receiver C, and ball comes out of his hand immediately to Receiver D, who as he thought would be, was wide open. Receiver D runs for another 15 yards after carry for a total gain of 24 yards on the play.
That's a fun story but there's no way of knowing what's really happening at the line and in their heads. Even if there was a way to know, comparing anyone to Manning in terms of pre-snap reads is kind of futile.
I know there's no way of knowing. It's just a fictional example. All I'm saying is that during the course of a game, there has to be SOME times when a QB takes a snap and gets the ball out to a receiver (not just a dump off). Not everyone can be covered on EVERY play.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:49 pm

Mothman wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:47 am
TSonn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:36 am
Not trying to be argumentative, but are there any stats that show he "had time to throw"?
There are "signature stats:" out there showing time to throw averages but honestly, their value is somewhat limited. According to this one, Cousins had an average of 2.74 seconds to throw.

Bottom line, as we could all see in games: sometimes Cousins had time to throw, as Stumphunter is saying. However, there were too many plays where he didn't have sufficient time, as many others are saying. Hopefully, we can all agree on that. Most of us who watched the games could see the o-line played poorly enough this season to be considered a genuine problem (again). The run blocking was often lousy and Cousins was under pressure enough that it can be considered an issue that really needs to be addressed, an aspect of the team that needs improvement. Cousins needs to work on his game too.
The Oline was not good, and should be the focus this off-season. I just don't think fixing it will make this a SB caliber team with the QB we have though, like some appear to believe.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by PurpleMustReign » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:58 pm

Mothman wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:36 am
dead_poet wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:39 am
I agree with much of this analysis. The MOST pressures allowed this season. God I'm sick of that familiar refrain. And how trash every o-line starter was outside of O'Neil, who they said didn't show that he should be immediately replaced. They really don't like Elflein, and he really struggled. It's probably not great when is biggest strength is his ability to move/pull and get into space when that's rarely called upon and he sucks at everything else. I'll give him another year but he was pretty disappointing, even considering coming off the injuries.

I hate our line so much.

I'll match your hate and raise it with my loathing for PFF. :)

The Vikes OL obviously stinks but PFF's opaque criteria for determining pressures is next to useless. They provide definitions like:
"Under pressure passing is any time the quarterback is disturbed from his normal throwing motion from set up to release, or anytime a pressure is registered on a given passing play."
Okay, so when is a pressure registered on a given passing play and how is a pressure defined?

If a QB is considered to be under pressure any time his throwing motion is disturbed from set up to release, is the time he holds the ball even taken into consideration when determining if a lineman has allowed a pressure?

How do they even define disturbance in a QB's throwing motion?

They also write this about pass-blocking efficiency from the o-line:
To expound further on pass-blocking efficiency more so than above, ‘PBE’ measures pressures allowed on a per-snap basis with weighting towards sacks. It’s one thing to allow 10 QB pressures over the course of a few games but another task entirely to allow 10 total pressures over the course of a season and PFF’s PBE shows just that.
Aargh!
I don't understand everyone's infatuation with PFF. It reminds me of a cult that lures people in and then convinces people that drinking goat's blood is good for your soul.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by PurpleMustReign » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:02 pm

Mothman wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:17 pm
TSonn wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:58 am
Interesting! If I'm reading this correctly, this stat is more a focus on time to throw rather than when the pressure came, right? As in, offenses that prioritize quick throwing (1 or 3 step drops) would have a lower time than offenses that use more 5 and 7 step drops?
That's correct.
OK, so sjnce some people are so in love with PFF... On the plays where he "had time" what were his overall stats. I remember seeing a bunch of plays where he had a lot of time and either took a sack or threw the ball to no one.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by 808vikingsfan » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:34 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:02 pm
Mothman wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:17 pm


That's correct.
OK, so sjnce some people are so in love with PFF... On the plays where he "had time" what were his overall stats. I remember seeing a bunch of plays where he had a lot of time and either took a sack or threw the ball to no one.
Was just about to post something similar.

Why don't we look at critical plays when Cousins did have time (3rd downs, redzone opp) The 3rd and long play where Cousins had time but rushed his throw for a short gain comes to mind. I'm convinced that Cousins will still make bonehead plays when needed no matter how much time he has to throw
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Bowhunting Viking » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:38 pm

dead_poet wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:29 am
Bowhunting Viking wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:45 pm
We have a nice long Christmas / New Years break, and as I mentioned my boss's younger brother was Cousins center in Washington. Today was his first day back and we talked and he said he and his brother were bummed for me after the Bears game. We are gonna get together here soon and I said I wanna talk to his brother about what Cousins is like. He said that during was game his brother said Kirk is getting rattled and stressed cuz they aren't giving him enough time that he requires for his reads. It wasnt long after that that he and Theilen got into it. He said Kory said Right there is what he lacks most of the time, that extra edginess and fire that Manning, Brady and Rodgers has. He said his brother said he swears you will never find a nice and genuine guy than Cousins. Said he is exactly the really good guy he seems, then he said he's not like Russel Wilson who puts on a big act for the cameras and media. Said Wilson isnt real popular with his teammates and guys in the league. But that Cousins really is a super high quality human being. Said he basically needs to put the good person side away for a few hrs during the game and be more of a #### sometimes. He also said the obvious, that until they upgrade our O line it isnt gonna get any better cuz Cousins needs a little more time than some other QBs out there. But when he has time and feels comfortable he is very accurate and throws a very nice ball the receivers love.
I'm anxious to sit down and really have some time to talk with him. But he definitely lives Cousins and raves about him as a teammate and a quality person. Pretty cool to have some insight from someone who snapped him the ball.
By the way this guy was on the Vikings roster for about a month when Favre was here, then went to Washington to reunite with Shanahan , who drafted him in Denver, when Shanahan was hired by Skins.
He said Favre is a riot to be around, and that AP was an absolute beast.
Its gonna be fun sharing a fee brews and hearing some stories. He had Kerrigan in town a few yrs ago for his annual county football camp and Kerrigan was really a cool dude.
This is awesome. We should give you a list of questions to ask him. You're our insider!
Lol. I'm sure the list would be about all the same questions I already wanna know. It sucked for me when he signed with the Vikings at the beginning of camp by Childress to compete with Sullivan. Then he ended up going to Washington. His dad was gonna give him this ceremonial Viking ball I have and have him take it and get it signed by the team, but he went to Washington before it ever happened. I will let post what I get from him about his view of Cousins. I do know his views on RG3...and they aren't printable here Haha.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:44 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:58 pm
Mothman wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:36 am



I'll match your hate and raise it with my loathing for PFF. :)

The Vikes OL obviously stinks but PFF's opaque criteria for determining pressures is next to useless. They provide definitions like:



Okay, so when is a pressure registered on a given passing play and how is a pressure defined?

If a QB is considered to be under pressure any time his throwing motion is disturbed from set up to release, is the time he holds the ball even taken into consideration when determining if a lineman has allowed a pressure?

How do they even define disturbance in a QB's throwing motion?

They also write this about pass-blocking efficiency from the o-line:



Aargh!
I don't understand everyone's infatuation with PFF. It reminds me of a cult that lures people in and then convinces people that drinking goat's blood is good for your soul.
It is useful to GM and Coaches who also watch tape to put the grades and stats in context. Not so much in arguments on message boards.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:03 pm

Here's what I don't understand.

Over the first half of the season, Kirk Cousins was among the best in the NFL when under pressure. All the PFF stats and other stats bore it out.

But as the season wore on, he obviously regressed.

What happened?

And please don't just say, "Cousins is a pansy" or "Cousins simply sucks," or some other non-analytical comment. What specifically have you guys noticed first half to second half of the season? Did our O-line get worse? Is that even possible? Did our receivers stop getting open? Did Cousins start getting gun-shy of all the hits? Cuz I'm at a loss.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by PurpleMustReign » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:25 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:03 pm
Here's what I don't understand.

Over the first half of the season, Kirk Cousins was among the best in the NFL when under pressure. All the PFF stats and other stats bore it out.

But as the season wore on, he obviously regressed.

What happened?

And please don't just say, "Cousins is a pansy" or "Cousins simply sucks," or some other non-analytical comment. What specifically have you guys noticed first half to second half of the season? Did our O-line get worse? Is that even possible? Did our receivers stop getting open? Did Cousins start getting gun-shy of all the hits? Cuz I'm at a loss.
My guess is they doubled Thielen and Diggs and we don't have any real #3 who stepped up, and he got hit too much. I've never seen a QB with the scared look on his face like had.
I also think he started protecting the ball too much. He didn't give his playmaker a chance despite them proving over and over that they will win the 50/50 balls. It's standard for WRs to win jump balls nowadays yet he never gave them a chance, including Treadwell who supposedly excels at that.
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