Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:31 pm

TSonn wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:01 pm
It seems like there's a lot of Nostradamas "the world is ending" hyberbole going on in here. Sure, Cousins had an underwhelming season (albeit stats-wise it was one of the best seasons ever by a Vikings QB) but I think Rick is playing the long game here. Last offseason he had a few options for QBs and he also knew that we had a shaky offensive line. With that information he could either go for a more mobile QB to make up for the deficiencies with the offensive line or go get a pocket passer and work on improving the line over the next few years. Pocket passers have far more success in the NFL than mobile passers (at least so far... Mahomes could change that all) and so he chose the more prototypical pocket passer in Cousins over Keenum and Bridgewater.

Now, I'm not saying this was absolutely the right move (and he must improve the offensive line for the Cousins signing to make any bit of sense) but it seems like a lot of people are selling their Google stock in the first year because it failed to overtake Yahoo immediately.
He is a 7 year vet who could never win the hard games, and was never a leader. Why would that change? Unless we dramaticlly inprove the Oline and run game (and then almost any QB would do for a lot cheaper). What do you base your love and loyalty for Cousins on? It blows my mind. Have you watched him play in WAS? A lot of his stats are pure garbage time.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by TSonn » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:24 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:31 pm
He is a 7 year vet who could never win the hard games, and was never a leader. Why would that change? Unless we dramaticlly inprove the Oline and run game (and then almost any QB would do for a lot cheaper). What do you base your love and loyalty for Cousins on? It blows my mind. Have you watched him play in WAS? A lot of his stats are pure garbage time.
I don't love Cousins and I only have loyalty for him because he is a Viking. Maybe being rational and understanding why the team signed him makes it seem like I love him? I've said he was underwhelming this year. I expected to make the playoffs and lose the first weekend with this current team. We didn't make the playoffs so that was disappointing.

I also think the team has bigger issues than Cousins and if we fix them, Cousins will be the best QB for us out of the options last year. Cousins didn't perform well in our high profile games so that's a concern. But I also watched our offensive line not play well in those games, our defense give up big plays (and boneheaded penalties) in those games, our stud WRs drop and fumble in those games, and our head coach not have our guys mentally ready for the challenge in those games. Does pointing out that other parts of our team didn't play well this year make me a Cousins lover? It's not like our team is a math problem where there's only one variable that causes a loss.

We can try to play the hindsight game and guess whether or not Keenum would have led this 2018 team to a better record, but none of that matters because it's all opinions and there's literally no way to know. We had a ridiculous road schedule combined with inopportune short weeks this year and that was going to be tough for any QB.

He had some great games/moments this year: the comeback in GB, matching the Rams firepower for nearly the entire game, a solid & mistake-free game in Philly, and outplayed Rodgers in MN. (I'd take playing well against 2 playoffs teams and outplaying ARod twice a year)

He had some really bad games/moments too: the entire Bills game was rough, the backwards passes, the Seattle game stunk, and both games against CHI were bad. (These types of games needs to improve to at least being mediocre for us to succeed)

He also seemed to improve both his fumbles and the batted balls as the year went on which was a good sign.

Overall I think that Cousins is just an easy scapegoat right now because of his contract when our team was never going to make much noise this year because of other glaring issues. He wasn't great this season, but he's also not this black hole who will prevent us from winning in the future.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:02 am

Most very athletic mobile QB's have never really had to learn the finer more intricate mental parts of the position. What has suited them their whole lives is this....When the primary receiver is covered, RUN. That works for a while, but once the defenses adjust and make them stay in that pocket a little longer, they fail. There are exceptions to that rule, but that it generally it. Having grown up in the Philly market, I probably saw everyone of Randall Cunningham's games with them. My description above fit him perfectly, and he never really learned to be a pocket QB. When he was in Minnesota, he did discover early on that if the primary receiver is covered, just throw it to Moss...whether he is covered, or double covered because chances are Moss was going to catch it anyhow, or just heave it as far as you can and Moss would track it down. I would personally rather have a pocket passing QB behind a good OL. But he has to be a QB that can read a defense before the snap and make proper audibles or know which guy will be open before the ball is even snapped. I'm just not sold that Cousins is that man.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by dead_poet » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:55 pm

We're not winning or going to a Super Bowl with Kirk Cousins unless we have a top-10 offensive line. He's a solid QB with limitations that need to be compensated for in order for him to be effective.

Will we field a top-10 line in the next two years? I'm incredibly skeptical. But my measured response is that Kirk can execute and be effective provided he's very well protected. Absent that, look to the draft in 2020.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:52 pm

dead_poet wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:55 pm
We're not winning or going to a Super Bowl with Kirk Cousins unless we have a top-10 offensive line. He's a solid QB with limitations that need to be compensated for in order for him to be effective.

Will we field a top-10 line in the next two years? I'm incredibly skeptical. But my measured response is that Kirk can execute and be effective provided he's very well protected. Absent that, look to the draft in 2020.
A better line will make the offense better, but we will always be limited by Cousins wilting in big games. I don't know how you win a SB with a QB like this, elite line or no elite line.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by mansquatch » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:52 pm

I know Kirk is the QB and so most blame will fall to him, but I do not think he was the biggest reason we ended the season the way we did. This year was more about what happened in the offensive coaching room than anything else. Hiring JDF was a colossal error. This was compounded when Sparano died and Easton went on IR. It was all downhill from there. Sparano was a HUGE loss. Consider that he was a former HC. He could have been providing valuable guidance and support to JDF had he been there.

Add in ST issues and early season defensive eggs and that is the 2018 season in a nutshell.

IMO, the biggest issues facing this team are the hiring/selection process for Offensive coaches and the development of OL players. Zimmer isn't going to suddenly become this miracle manger, that isn't who he is. And look, lots of coaches are play callers. Doug Pedersen called the plays in PHI when they won the SB. They need to find somebody who can compliment ZIM and run the offensive show. My fear is that so far they haven't figured out how to identify what THAT guy looks like.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:55 pm

For all the negative things I've said about Cousins, I think he's well beyond good enough to win on a legit good defensive team that has a good OL. The Vikings can also do themselves a favor and cut down on the penalties. They ranked 23rd in penalty yards.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by TSonn » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:41 pm

PFF did a breakdown on Cousins and the 2018 Vikings:

https://youtu.be/ADDhsTCQMwg

Spoiler: Though Kirk wasn't great, the Vikings had much bigger issues (defensive regression, rough schedule, abysmal offensive line).
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Bowhunting Viking » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:45 pm

We have a nice long Christmas / New Years break, and as I mentioned my boss's younger brother was Cousins center in Washington. Today was his first day back and we talked and he said he and his brother were bummed for me after the Bears game. We are gonna get together here soon and I said I wanna talk to his brother about what Cousins is like. He said that during was game his brother said Kirk is getting rattled and stressed cuz they aren't giving him enough time that he requires for his reads. It wasnt long after that that he and Theilen got into it. He said Kory said Right there is what he lacks most of the time, that extra edginess and fire that Manning, Brady and Rodgers has. He said his brother said he swears you will never find a nice and genuine guy than Cousins. Said he is exactly the really good guy he seems, then he said he's not like Russel Wilson who puts on a big act for the cameras and media. Said Wilson isnt real popular with his teammates and guys in the league. But that Cousins really is a super high quality human being. Said he basically needs to put the good person side away for a few hrs during the game and be more of a #### sometimes. He also said the obvious, that until they upgrade our O line it isnt gonna get any better cuz Cousins needs a little more time than some other QBs out there. But when he has time and feels comfortable he is very accurate and throws a very nice ball the receivers love.
I'm anxious to sit down and really have some time to talk with him. But he definitely lives Cousins and raves about him as a teammate and a quality person. Pretty cool to have some insight from someone who snapped him the ball.
By the way this guy was on the Vikings roster for about a month when Favre was here, then went to Washington to reunite with Shanahan , who drafted him in Denver, when Shanahan was hired by Skins.
He said Favre is a riot to be around, and that AP was an absolute beast.
Its gonna be fun sharing a fee brews and hearing some stories. He had Kerrigan in town a few yrs ago for his annual county football camp and Kerrigan was really a cool dude.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by dead_poet » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:29 am

Bowhunting Viking wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:45 pm
We have a nice long Christmas / New Years break, and as I mentioned my boss's younger brother was Cousins center in Washington. Today was his first day back and we talked and he said he and his brother were bummed for me after the Bears game. We are gonna get together here soon and I said I wanna talk to his brother about what Cousins is like. He said that during was game his brother said Kirk is getting rattled and stressed cuz they aren't giving him enough time that he requires for his reads. It wasnt long after that that he and Theilen got into it. He said Kory said Right there is what he lacks most of the time, that extra edginess and fire that Manning, Brady and Rodgers has. He said his brother said he swears you will never find a nice and genuine guy than Cousins. Said he is exactly the really good guy he seems, then he said he's not like Russel Wilson who puts on a big act for the cameras and media. Said Wilson isnt real popular with his teammates and guys in the league. But that Cousins really is a super high quality human being. Said he basically needs to put the good person side away for a few hrs during the game and be more of a #### sometimes. He also said the obvious, that until they upgrade our O line it isnt gonna get any better cuz Cousins needs a little more time than some other QBs out there. But when he has time and feels comfortable he is very accurate and throws a very nice ball the receivers love.
I'm anxious to sit down and really have some time to talk with him. But he definitely lives Cousins and raves about him as a teammate and a quality person. Pretty cool to have some insight from someone who snapped him the ball.
By the way this guy was on the Vikings roster for about a month when Favre was here, then went to Washington to reunite with Shanahan , who drafted him in Denver, when Shanahan was hired by Skins.
He said Favre is a riot to be around, and that AP was an absolute beast.
Its gonna be fun sharing a fee brews and hearing some stories. He had Kerrigan in town a few yrs ago for his annual county football camp and Kerrigan was really a cool dude.
This is awesome. We should give you a list of questions to ask him. You're our insider!
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by dead_poet » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:39 am

TSonn wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:41 pm
PFF did a breakdown on Cousins and the 2018 Vikings:

https://youtu.be/ADDhsTCQMwg

Spoiler: Though Kirk wasn't great, the Vikings had much bigger issues (defensive regression, rough schedule, abysmal offensive line).
I agree with much of this analysis. The MOST pressures allowed this season. God I'm sick of that familiar refrain. And how trash every o-line starter was outside of O'Neil, who they said didn't show that he should be immediately replaced. They really don't like Elflein, and he really struggled. It's probably not great when is biggest strength is his ability to move/pull and get into space when that's rarely called upon and he sucks at everything else. I'll give him another year but he was pretty disappointing, even considering coming off the injuries.

I hate our line so much.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:26 am

dead_poet wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:39 am
TSonn wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:41 pm
PFF did a breakdown on Cousins and the 2018 Vikings:

https://youtu.be/ADDhsTCQMwg

Spoiler: Though Kirk wasn't great, the Vikings had much bigger issues (defensive regression, rough schedule, abysmal offensive line).
I agree with much of this analysis. The MOST pressures allowed this season. God I'm sick of that familiar refrain. And how trash every o-line starter was outside of O'Neil, who they said didn't show that he should be immediately replaced. They really don't like Elflein, and he really struggled. It's probably not great when is biggest strength is his ability to move/pull and get into space when that's rarely called upon and he sucks at everything else. I'll give him another year but he was pretty disappointing, even considering coming off the injuries.

I hate our line so much.
:whistle:

Using pressure stats without time to throw or number of attempts is like using total number of completions without total number of attempts or YPA.

It is only half the story, and pretty useless on its own.

Cousins had time to throw. He just didn’t use that time effectively.

“If Cousins had a great line, he would be a great QB” is a true statement. So is this statement: “If Dalton had a great line, he would be a great QB” and this one: “If Fitzpatrick had a great line, he would be a great QB”.

What actually makes a QB great, and worth having, is how they handle themselves when the line isn’t playing well either because they are having an off day, or because the dline they are facing is just really good. Do they get rid of the ball quickly to help their line out? Do they buy time with their legs? Do they take their lumps but still deliver? Cousins didn’t do any of those things in any big game this season, and that is why he is in the same conversation to me as Stafford, Dalton and Tannehill. Capable of putting up good numbers, just not when it matters most.
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by TSonn » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:36 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:26 am
Using pressure stats without time to throw or number of attempts is like using total number of completions without total number of attempts or YPA.

It is only half the story, and pretty useless on its own.

Cousins had time to throw. He just didn’t use that time effectively.
Not trying to be argumentative, but are there any stats that show he "had time to throw"?
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:36 am

dead_poet wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:39 am
I agree with much of this analysis. The MOST pressures allowed this season. God I'm sick of that familiar refrain. And how trash every o-line starter was outside of O'Neil, who they said didn't show that he should be immediately replaced. They really don't like Elflein, and he really struggled. It's probably not great when is biggest strength is his ability to move/pull and get into space when that's rarely called upon and he sucks at everything else. I'll give him another year but he was pretty disappointing, even considering coming off the injuries.

I hate our line so much.

I'll match your hate and raise it with my loathing for PFF. :)

The Vikes OL obviously stinks but PFF's opaque criteria for determining pressures is next to useless. They provide definitions like:
"Under pressure passing is any time the quarterback is disturbed from his normal throwing motion from set up to release, or anytime a pressure is registered on a given passing play."
Okay, so when is a pressure registered on a given passing play and how is a pressure defined?

If a QB is considered to be under pressure any time his throwing motion is disturbed from set up to release, is the time he holds the ball even taken into consideration when determining if a lineman has allowed a pressure?

How do they even define disturbance in a QB's throwing motion?

They also write this about pass-blocking efficiency from the o-line:
To expound further on pass-blocking efficiency more so than above, ‘PBE’ measures pressures allowed on a per-snap basis with weighting towards sacks. It’s one thing to allow 10 QB pressures over the course of a few games but another task entirely to allow 10 total pressures over the course of a season and PFF’s PBE shows just that.
Aargh!
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Re: Is Kirk Cousins the leader you want?

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:41 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:26 am
dead_poet wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:39 am


I agree with much of this analysis. The MOST pressures allowed this season. God I'm sick of that familiar refrain. And how trash every o-line starter was outside of O'Neil, who they said didn't show that he should be immediately replaced. They really don't like Elflein, and he really struggled. It's probably not great when is biggest strength is his ability to move/pull and get into space when that's rarely called upon and he sucks at everything else. I'll give him another year but he was pretty disappointing, even considering coming off the injuries.

I hate our line so much.
:whistle:

Using pressure stats without time to throw or number of attempts is like using total number of completions without total number of attempts or YPA.

It is only half the story, and pretty useless on its own.

Cousins had time to throw. He just didn’t use that time effectively.

“If Cousins had a great line, he would be a great QB” is a true statement. So is this statement: “If Dalton had a great line, he would be a great QB” and this one: “If Fitzpatrick had a great line, he would be a great QB”.

What actually makes a QB great, and worth having, is how they handle themselves when the line isn’t playing well either because they are having an off day, or because the dline they are facing is just really good. Do they get rid of the ball quickly to help their line out? Do they buy time with their legs? Do they take their lumps but still deliver? Cousins didn’t do any of those things in any big game this season, and that is why he is in the same conversation to me as Stafford, Dalton and Tannehill. Capable of putting up good numbers, just not when it matters most.
Exactly. Using the Oline solely as the problem/excuse has become stale and old. Our Oline sucks (thanks Rick), but our QB sucks too. Hes like a statue in the pocket, he doesnt know how to make a play unless everything is perfect. And we get 2 more years of this. And it will take Rick longer then that to even acknowledge theres a problems with the Oline.
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