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VikingLord
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by VikingLord » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:10 pm

Mothman wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:34 pm
I haven't forgotten that. Leslie Frazier did the exact same thing, and both did it with a gigantic assist from Adrian Peterson. I suspect he'd have a record pretty similar to Zimmer's if he'd been given the same number of years and the same level of support. Ditto for Tice. Childress had very similar accomplishments over his first 4 seasons. The wheels fell off spectacularly for him in 2010 and Zimmer's avoided that this year but not the championship loss hangover (and that blowout loss was a big flashing warning sign that shouldn't be ignored).
I think a lot of it comes down to rigidity. All of the coaches you listed had set systems and beliefs, or developed them, during their time coaching the Vikings and pretty much every one stuck to that system even when there was ample evidence other teams had figured out how to beat those systems.

The first warning sign that showed up for Zimmer last season was the 2nd half of the divisional playoff game against the Saints. On both sides of the ball. The Saints controlled that 2nd half in a hostile environment and the Vikings were very fortunate to walk out of that one on the winning side. And then the Eagles proceeded to do what the Saints would have done had they had a full game instead of a half, and waxed the Vikings.

And this year, sure, the system is beating most of the bad teams the Vikings have faced, but against the better teams its been exploited repeatedly. Maybe the Vikings aren't suffering from a lack of fire and prep - maybe they're just playing in their lanes and what is being exposed is the inadequacy of the entire scheme on both sides of the ball, at least from a gameplan perspective.

That's why I have this very real feeling of dread heading into the Monday night game against Seattle, because based on what I've seen so far this season, I think Seattle is going to come out and have little trouble moving the ball and scoring, at least initially. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Seahawks up a comfortable 14 points with about 10 minutes left in the 2nd quarter. And I fully expect the Vikings offense to come out and struggle again for at least the 1st half of the game. If they do score, it will be on their first drive of the game. Otherwise, expect them to more or less get shut down until midway through the 3rd quarter or maybe as late as the start of the 4th. By that time, they'll be so far down that they'll have no choice but to start running and gunning to get back into the game. This has been the script against good teams all season so far, and because Zimmer and his coaches will remain convinced that the problems lie in mistakes in execution and focus rather than in overall strategy, we'll see the same thing repeat itself yet again.

The way Zimmer avoids this outcome is by truly changing some things up, throwing new wrinkles at the Seahawks on both sides of the ball, and telling his players to play aggressive and like they have nothing to lose on both sides of the ball. Chances he will do that are around 0, unfortunately.

I hope I'm wrong.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Mothman » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:35 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:01 pm
I'm just not sold on firing him as a solution that will likely net positive results. Defensively we are in a rare group within the NFL in terms of the quality of our unit. If they can get the Kicking, OC, and OL crap figured out they are probably primed to make a deep playoff run.
That doesn't sound like a strong probability. I don't think the defense is in a particularly rare group either. They were very formidable last year but the Vikes are currently 15th in points allowed and even last year, in the postseason they basically wet the bed. They just played 3 big games in 3 weeks and the defense failed to deliver in two of them. Heck, in the Chicago and NE games combined, they allowed a total over 300 yards rushing!
2 years from now, things might change. We need to remember that Harrison Smith was drafted in 2012 and is in his prime for probably 3-5 more seasons. The only guy on the Defense that will probably fall off is EG who was taken in 2010. But even he probably has 2 or 3 more years. Everyone else is on their first big extension. Aside from a career ending in injury, that unit is set to continue to be great for 2-4 more seasons. It seems kind of silly to cut the head off the snake with all that is invested there.
There are other good defensive minds out there and a new coach could choose to keep Edwards as DC if they wanted to maintain this system and continuity.

It is premature to talk about getting rid of Zimmer or Spielman (in the sense that it's probably at least a year too soon for it to be a realistic possibility) but my reasoning doesn't hinge on this season's pending outcomes. It's based on what we've already seen. I see Spielman as the bigger issue but I'm guessing if he were replaced, Zimmer would be replaced too (or wouldn't last long).
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Mothman » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:38 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:03 pm
I think the two 'peak spielman' moments in the negative sense were the way he addressed the OL position in 2016(?) When we kept Kalil and brought in Andre Smith to man our Tackle positions, with TJ Clemmings as the backup plan. I hope I am remembering that correctly, though I kind of wish I weren't.
:lol: You're remembering correctly and that's a good "peak Spielman" moment.
Secondly, trading a 1st and 4th for a truly middling QB in Sam Bradford after Bridgewater went down.
Yes, that one ties into what I mentioned nicely.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by PacificNorseWest » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:50 pm

The Vikings defensive scheme is not too conservative. If anything, it is overly aggressive. Offenses know about beat that now with the RPO looks and throwing to the void that Harrison leaves when trying to get back into position from a blitz look.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by fiestavike » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:20 pm

PacificNorseWest wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:50 pm
The Vikings defensive scheme is not too conservative. If anything, it is overly aggressive. Offenses know about beat that now with the RPO looks and throwing to the void that Harrison leaves when trying to get back into position from a blitz look.
No, they play a very reactive style of defense. That's the scheme.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:22 am

No team in the NFL just fires a coach because of one mediocre season. It just doesnt happen. Which again, is why I keep saying the guys are overreacting in the chat. If this continued for a few years then yeah. But it's ONE year. Firing two guys that made this team relevant once again one year after an NFC championship is one of the most unrealistic overreactions I've honestly heard
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by PurpleMustReign » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:05 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:22 am
No team in the NFL just fires a coach because of one mediocre season. It just doesnt happen. Which again, is why I keep saying the guys are overreacting in the chat. If this continued for a few years then yeah. But it's ONE year. Firing two guys that made this team relevant once again one year after an NFC championship is one of the most unrealistic overreactions I've honestly heard
He had an 8-8 season two years ago too, where they started 5-0. You can't say it's just one season. And you can't say injuries, blah blah because every team has injuries. Sam Bradford had a great season that year. And of course, the OL was the weak link.
If we can't hang on the bad seasons you can't hang on the good ones. He's had two good years in his 4.75. I'll give him a pass for year one. But not for year three and year five.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Mothman » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:22 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:22 am
No team in the NFL just fires a coach because of one mediocre season. It just doesnt happen. Which again, is why I keep saying the guys are overreacting in the chat. If this continued for a few years then yeah. But it's ONE year. Firing two guys that made this team relevant once again one year after an NFC championship is one of the most unrealistic overreactions I've honestly heard
Green was fired one year after an NFC Championship appearance in which the team was humiliated (although not much worse than Zimmer's team was last January).

Childress was fired Green was fired less than one year after an NFC Championship appearance (and that Vikings team played in a conference championship game that went to overtime).

How "unrealistic" is an idea that's actually happened twice in the last two decades with this same franchise?

The case for replacing Zimmer and/or Spielman isn't based solely on this season anyway.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by mansquatch » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:06 am

You are leaving out a lot of additional circumstances with the NFCCG comparison. Childress got canned in part because he basically defied Ownership with how he handled Randy Moss. Green had other issues the lead to his downfall. There is probably an argument that in the cases of those guys getting fired, the fact it was after an NFCCG was purely coincidental.

I still think Zimmer's poorer performing years are as easily explained in part by situations he couldn't control as they are by things he could. Spielman is similar. Just as one example: Part of the OL this year is the fact that Easton went on IR in August. The issue at RG is more on him. However, with the OL as a whole it is worth noting that in 2017 our OL was decent, maybe even good. They weren't great, but that was best OL we've had in ages. Doesn't Spielman deserve credit for that too?

The combination of Zimmer and Spielman built one of the top 3 defenses in the NFL in 3 years. And you guys want to throw it away. I think lost in all of this is the idea that people grow in their jobs. If we blow it up, we throw away all the growth and evolution that has happened in exchange for a hope that something new might do it better.

This argument has gone on since 2016, 2 years later I'm still not any more persuaded of it's merits. It still boils down to "we didn't win it all, so we should blow it up."
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Mothman » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:09 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:06 am
You are leaving out a lot of additional circumstances with the NFCCG comparison. Childress got canned in part because he basically defied Ownership with how he handled Randy Moss. Green had other issues the lead to his downfall. There is probably an argument that in the cases of those guys getting fired, the fact it was after an NFCCG was purely coincidental.
That's all beside the point, which is that we have ample evidence it's not unrealistic to consider firing a coach one year after an NFC championship appearance.
I still think Zimmer's poorer performing years are as easily explained in part by situations he couldn't control as they are by things he could. Spielman is similar
You can make similar arguments about most coaches and GMs who get replaced. They all deal with injuries and unexpected setbacks.
Just as one example: Part of the OL this year is the fact that Easton went on IR in August. The issue at RG is more on him. However, with the OL as a whole it is worth noting that in 2017 our OL was decent, maybe even good. They weren't great, but that was best OL we've had in ages. Doesn't Spielman deserve credit for that too?
"Decent" is as far as I'd go with that group but kudos to Spielman for managing to put together an OL good enough that improving it was considered a top priority last offseason (right after solving the typically unsettled QB position). Sorry, I know that's sarcastic but how low are we setting the bar?
The combination of Zimmer and Spielman built one of the top 3 defenses in the NFL in 3 years. And you guys want to throw it away.
No, I want to see the team improve. Zimmer just hasn't brought enough to the table to be viewed as irreplaceable. Building a top defense isn't the goal. It's just one step toward the goal and frankly, what good is a "top" defense that allows 62 points over it's final 6 postseason quarters? I'll repeat a point I made yesterday: over the last 3 weeks, with plenty on the line, Zimmer's mighty defense hasn't exactly seized the day. The same could probably be said for the season but with first place up for grabs against the Bears and with wildcard position and a chance to gain ground on Chicago at stake last Sunday, the defense allowed about 150 yards rushing in each game. By the 4th quarter of both games, the Vikings were all but assured of losing. Isn't the whole idea driving the Zimmer zealotry we've seen over the past 5 years that he's a defensive mastermind whose defense can be so formidable the Vikes need just enough offense to compliment it and they can go all the way? That vision for the team simply hasn't materialized.
I think lost in all of this is the idea that people grow in their jobs. If we blow it up, we throw away all the growth and evolution that has happened in exchange for a hope that something new might do it better.
Spielman's been in MN for 12 years. He's been GM for 7. Zimmer's in his 5th year. Where's the growth? They've had the time. Spielman makes the same blunders again and again. Zimmer still coaches like he doesn't know or care much about offense. His defenses remain too vulnerable to the run. His teams still show up flat every year for multiple games. He still gets out-coached in key games against similarly talented opponents. Neither one of these guys has shown enough growth or ability to make them irreplaceable and it's not like either one of them is new to the job at this point.
This argument has gone on since 2016, 2 years later I'm still not any more persuaded of it's merits. It still boils down to "we didn't win it all, so we should blow it up."
I still consider that a mischaracterization of my argument. I've never said the Vikes should "blow it up". I want them to improve it. It's not the same thing. I don't think replacing a coach, or even a GM, necessarily means "blowing it up". It can go that way but in my view, they don't need to scrap the entire roster or anything so drastic, just find people who can build on it to create a better team. Ditto for the scouting department, etc. Assess it, revise if and where necessary, get better.

Your counterargument always seems to boil down to "They're pretty good now but they could get worse if they make big moves to get better so let's stick with the status quo".

Heaven forbid they ever put together a team that could reach the playoffs 3 years in a row.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:29 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:05 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:22 am
No team in the NFL just fires a coach because of one mediocre season. It just doesnt happen. Which again, is why I keep saying the guys are overreacting in the chat. If this continued for a few years then yeah. But it's ONE year. Firing two guys that made this team relevant once again one year after an NFC championship is one of the most unrealistic overreactions I've honestly heard
He had an 8-8 season two years ago too, where they started 5-0. You can't say it's just one season. And you can't say injuries, blah blah because every team has injuries. Sam Bradford had a great season that year. And of course, the OL was the weak link.
If we can't hang on the bad seasons you can't hang on the good ones. He's had two good years in his 4.75. I'll give him a pass for year one. But not for year three and year five.
The 2016 season was unlike any other season. It's not just "injuries". It's not having a banged up secondary or a banged up WR group. It FLOODED the team. We lose our 3rd year starting QB to a devastating knee injury, have to then trade for an injury-prone but decent QB, we lose our star RB for the season (the same guy that carried us in 2015), our offensive line was THE most injured offensive line since 2000. 16 years!!! Our entire defensive side of the ball for the most part missed time. Just go to google and type in, "Vikings injuries 2016" and see what pops up. Link after link showing how we were one of the most injured teams in a long time. We were considered to have the "3rd most" games lost due to injury in the NFL. Like I said, the 2016 was a totally different animal.

But either way, we've had Zimmer for 5 years now. He holds the 7th best win percentage of active coaches. In five years, he literally took a team of legit bums to winning the division in 2 years. Following the injury flooded season, he then takes us to an NFC championship. Yeah this year is underwhelming and like I said before, if this continued for a few years, firing him would be something we should look into doing. But that hasnt been the case at all. Does anyone realize how difficult it is to take a team that you practically have to do a complete rebuild to and win the division by your 2nd year. And then get to an NFC championship in your 4th year? To fire him or Spielman for that matter NOW....is asinine. That's simply spoken from the frustration of never winning a SB. We're all frustrated. But to fire Mike Zimmer or Rick Spielman right now or at season's end, is absolutely asinine. Sorry if you dont like that but it's true. That doesnt come up in any conversation in the media, analysts, most fans, etc. Not a soul has mentioned Mike Zimmer's job of being in danger. I mean my goodness Marvin Lewis has been the Bengals coach for how long now and cant even win a playoff game. And he still has a job. But fans think firing Mike Zimmer in his 5th season should be considered one year removed from an NFC championship birth?? One word: overreaction.

Discussing what he needs to improve on, discussing his areas of weakness, discussing how he can turn this around is all one thing. But to say that we should consider firing him this year as well as Spielman, is as unrealistic as it gets. I'm done with this thread just like I'm done with the game chat. I'd rather stare at 4 walls than to listen to some of the overreactions of frustrated fans on here. Be realistic....
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Mothman » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:16 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:29 pm
But either way, we've had Zimmer for 5 years now. He holds the 7th best win percentage of active coaches. In five years, he literally took a team of legit bums to winning the division in 2 years
"A team of legit bums" that had 10 wins just one season earlier, in 2012. The 2013 season was a mess for a bunch of reasons but Zimmer didn't inherit a roster and cap issues like the team faced in 2011, after going "all in" in 2010. Zimmer did a fine job to get the Vikes from what he inherited to a division win in 2014 but let's not oversell it. Fans have been mythologizing this coach's accomplishments since he walked in the door.
Following the injury flooded season, he then takes us to an NFC championship.
Where his team and the defense that's supposed to be his signature got absolutely hammered in a loss nearly as embarrassing as the 41-0 championship drubbing Green's Vikes suffered in 2000. It was a terrible showing. Getting that far is a point in Zimmer's favor. The results work against him.
Yeah this year is underwhelming and like I said before, if this continued for a few years, firing him would be something we should look into doing. But that hasnt been the case at all. Does anyone realize how difficult it is to take a team that you practically have to do a complete rebuild to and win the division by your 2nd year.
Yes, but it wasn't a complete rebuild. He inherited many of the key players on that roster: Peterson, Smith, Griffen, Rhodes. Players like Rudolph, Robison, Sendejo and Greenway were all starters who played important roles too. There were significant additions too (especially on defense) so I'm not trying to diminish what he actually accomplished, just to keep it in perspective. He didn't exactly build a division winner from scratch and without Peterson in particular, that team probably wouldn't have been a division winner.
And then get to an NFC championship in your 4th year? To fire him or Spielman for that matter NOW....is asinine. That's simply spoken from the frustration of never winning a SB.
No, it's not. It's from recognizing how much better an NFL team can be than what we keep getting from Spielman in particular but from Zimmer as well. Getting to the NFC championship in the first 4 years is something to be expected from a good coach, not something to be treated as a singular accomplishment. Most coaches who are going to win Super Bowls get at least that far in 4 years.
We're all frustrated. But to fire Mike Zimmer or Rick Spielman right now or at season's end, is absolutely asinine.
It's nothing of the kind. I invite you and other fans who like this GM/coach combo so much to step back and really think about what's been achieved on their watch in Minnesota.

Spielman joined the organization in a critical role in 2007. Since then, they have 5 playoff appearances and 2 playoff wins to show for their efforts over the past 11 seasons. Since he became GM, they have 3 playoff appearances and one playoff win. That's playoff appearances in 50% of the seasons or less and playoff wins have been few and far between. Contrast that with an elite team like NE, who have been to the postseason and won numerous times in all but one of those seasons. That illustrates what's possible. Contrast that stretch of Vikings history with less elite (but nevertheless successful) teams like Pittsburgh or Green Bay: the Packers have made the playoffs in 9 of those seasons, winning multiple postseason games and a Super Bowl. The Steelers have made the postseason 8 times in that span, won a Super Bowl and appeared in another.

Those are just 3 examples but it's possible to do a LOT better than this, folks. We should want and expect that from the Vikings. A substantial portion of this fan base seems positively addicted to mediocrity.
Sorry if you dont like that but it's true. That doesnt come up in any conversation in the media, analysts, most fans, etc. Not a soul has mentioned Mike Zimmer's job of being in danger. I mean my goodness Marvin Lewis has been the Bengals coach for how long now and cant even win a playoff game. And he still has a job.
Right. He still has a head-coaching job and he shouldn't. He's a cautionary tale of what teams get when they stick with coaches like that for too long, when they fall in love with mild success and mediocrity. That's exactly what worries me about Zimmer because he sure looks like another Lewis to me and not just because he was hired off Lewis' staff.
But fans think firing Mike Zimmer in his 5th season should be considered one year removed from an NFC championship birth?? One word: overreaction.
It's "berth", it was an uncompetitive blowout and 5 years is enough to get a good measure of a coach. Let's see how they finish this one but if they don't finish it strong, firing him should definitely be on the table. It won't be (and that's why you don't hear it talked about nationally—pundits know the Wilfs won't do it yet) but it should be...
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:58 pm

Mothman wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:16 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:29 pm
But either way, we've had Zimmer for 5 years now. He holds the 7th best win percentage of active coaches. In five years, he literally took a team of legit bums to winning the division in 2 years
"A team of legit bums" that had 10 wins just one season earlier, in 2012. The 2013 season was a mess for a bunch of reasons but Zimmer didn't inherit a roster and cap issues like the team faced in 2011, after going "all in" in 2010. Zimmer did a fine job to get the Vikes from what he inherited to a division win in 2014 but let's not oversell it. Fans have been mythologizing this coach's accomplishments since he walked in the door.
Following the injury flooded season, he then takes us to an NFC championship.
Where his team and the defense that's supposed to be his signature got absolutely hammered in a loss nearly as embarrassing as the 41-0 championship drubbing Green's Vikes suffered in 2000. It was a terrible showing. Getting that far is a point in Zimmer's favor. The results work against him.
Yeah this year is underwhelming and like I said before, if this continued for a few years, firing him would be something we should look into doing. But that hasnt been the case at all. Does anyone realize how difficult it is to take a team that you practically have to do a complete rebuild to and win the division by your 2nd year.
Yes, but it wasn't a complete rebuild. He inherited many of the key players on that roster: Peterson, Smith, Griffen, Rhodes. Players like Rudolph, Robison, Sendejo and Greenway were all starters who played important roles too. There were significant additions too (especially on defense) so I'm not trying to diminish what he actually accomplished, just to keep it in perspective. He didn't exactly build a division winner from scratch and without Peterson in particular, that team probably wouldn't have been a division winner.
And then get to an NFC championship in your 4th year? To fire him or Spielman for that matter NOW....is asinine. That's simply spoken from the frustration of never winning a SB.
No, it's not. It's from recognizing how much better an NFL team can be than what we keep getting from Spielman in particular but from Zimmer as well. Getting to the NFC championship in the first 4 years is something to be expected from a good coach, not something to be treated as a singular accomplishment. Most coaches who are going to win Super Bowls get at least that far in 4 years.
We're all frustrated. But to fire Mike Zimmer or Rick Spielman right now or at season's end, is absolutely asinine.
It's nothing of the kind. I invite you and other fans who like this GM/coach combo so much to step back and really think about what's been achieved on their watch in Minnesota.

Spielman joined the organization in a critical role in 2007. Since then, they have 5 playoff appearances and 2 playoff wins to show for their efforts over the past 11 seasons. Since he became GM, they have 3 playoff appearances and one playoff win. That's playoff appearances in 50% of the seasons or less and playoff wins have been few and far between. Contrast that with an elite team like NE, who have been to the postseason and won numerous times in all but one of those seasons. That illustrates what's possible. Contrast that stretch of Vikings history with less elite (but nevertheless successful) teams like Pittsburgh or Green Bay: the Packers have made the playoffs in 9 of those seasons, winning multiple postseason games and a Super Bowl. The Steelers have made the postseason 8 times in that span, won a Super Bowl and appeared in another.

Those are just 3 examples but it's possible to do a LOT better than this, folks. We should want and expect that from the Vikings. A substantial portion of this fan base seems positively addicted to mediocrity.
Sorry if you dont like that but it's true. That doesnt come up in any conversation in the media, analysts, most fans, etc. Not a soul has mentioned Mike Zimmer's job of being in danger. I mean my goodness Marvin Lewis has been the Bengals coach for how long now and cant even win a playoff game. And he still has a job.
Right. He still has a head-coaching job and he shouldn't. He's a cautionary tale of what teams get when they stick with coaches like that for too long, when they fall in love with mild success and mediocrity. That's exactly what worries me about Zimmer because he sure looks like another Lewis to me and not just because he was hired off Lewis' staff.
But fans think firing Mike Zimmer in his 5th season should be considered one year removed from an NFC championship birth?? One word: overreaction.
It's "berth", it was an uncompetitive blowout and 5 years is enough to get a good measure of a coach. Let's see how they finish this one but if they don't finish it strong, firing him should definitely be on the table. It won't be (and that's why you don't hear it talked about nationally—pundits know the Wilfs won't do it yet) but it should be...
lol thanks for the grammar lesson! Like I said, I'm done with this thread
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Mothman » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:15 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:58 pm
lol thanks for the grammar lesson! Like I said, I'm done with this thread
Actually, it was a spelling lesson, not a grammar lesson and that is your final lesson of the day, Grasshopper.;)

I'm just kidding so please don't get angry!
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by VikingLord » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:34 pm

Mothman wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:16 pm
...it was an uncompetitive blowout and 5 years is enough to get a good measure of a coach. Let's see how they finish this one but if they don't finish it strong, firing him should definitely be on the table. It won't be (and that's why you don't hear it talked about nationally—pundits know the Wilfs won't do it yet) but it should be...
You might be surprised if the Vikings lay an egg here and don't make the playoffs, or worse, put up stinkers against the Seahawks and the Bears to close out the season. While unlikely, they could lose their next 4 and finish with a losing record, or even 3 of their next 4.

No NFL head coach's job is safe anymore IMHO. Look at McCarthy in Green Bay. Did anyone think he wouldn't last the season? But he's gone with 4 games to play, and the Packers weren't even coming off a great prior season. The NFL is a "show me" league, and while I think Zimmer is probably going to make it to next season as the head coach, if the Vikes fall flat to end this season his tenure with the team could be in serious jeopardy, especially if they continue to get their hats handed to them for long stretches of games.

Spielman, I don't know. The team has some talented players, and it's easier to argue that the head coach isn't wringing the most out of that talent rather than the GM isn't finding it and retaining it. Even on the offensive line, Spielman can argue the injury to Easton couldn't have been anticipated, nor the injury or drop off with Elflein. He can argue he found O'Neill in the 2nd and he's been a value pick. I'm not sure Spielman would be under the gun even if the season is a failure.

But Zimmer sure could be. Absolutely. He needs his team to over-perform against a good team and he needs it soon.
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