Vikings Patriots post game

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Mothman
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Mothman » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:01 pm

Cliff wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:29 am
Zimmer's defenses have had problems with quality opponents going back to his days in Cinci. Especially in the playoffs. He's the best coach the Vikings have had in a pretty long while. That doesn't mean he's good enough to take them to the super bowl though.

I'm not advocating firing him but I am definitely thinking about where that "he needs to go" line is.
I hope the Wilfs are too.

Cliff, at this point, I can't even buy the idea that he's the best coach the Vikings have had in a long while. I think he's the best-supported coach they've had in a long while and that's a big part of why he's been successful. He's had the full support of the organization in a way Tice and Frazier never did. Childress had more support but Childress did comparably well (2 division titles in his first 4 seasons, an appearance in the NFCC game that was actually much more competitive than Zimmer's Vikes managed last year). Zimmer seems very much along the same lines as his last 3 predecessors. I don't think he's better than Green.

It seems to me that Zimmer's reputation exceeds his accomplishments.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:34 pm

Mothman wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:01 pm
Cliff wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:29 am
Zimmer's defenses have had problems with quality opponents going back to his days in Cinci. Especially in the playoffs. He's the best coach the Vikings have had in a pretty long while. That doesn't mean he's good enough to take them to the super bowl though.

I'm not advocating firing him but I am definitely thinking about where that "he needs to go" line is.
I hope the Wilfs are too.

Cliff, at this point, I can't even buy the idea that he's the best coach the Vikings have had in a long while. I think he's the best-supported coach they've had in a long while and that's a big part of why he's been successful. He's had the full support of the organization in a way Tice and Frazier never did. Childress had more support but Childress did comparably well (2 division titles in his first 4 seasons, an appearance in the NFCC game that was actually much more competitive than Zimmer's Vikes managed last year). Zimmer seems very much along the same lines as his last 3 predecessors. I don't think he's better than Green.

It seems to me that Zimmer's reputation exceeds his accomplishments.
I wish Tice had been given as much support as Zimmer.
I think Zimmer should be fired. 100%. With that said... If he can regain control of the team and have them coming out balls to the wall these last four games and put a run in the playoffs, I would be ok with him coming back one more season. I just don't see that happening.
My prediction for next week is basically a carbon copy of yesterday. Seattle wins 27-14 in a game where the Vikings start slow but keep the game close somehow, but never get that play to move them over the top.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by mansquatch » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:40 pm

It was obvious that JDF was completely over-matched against Belicek yesterday. I was annoyed by it, but let's face it, getting beat up by Belicik isn't the same (or as embarassing) as getting housed by the Bills defense and Leslie Frasier. Regardless, it SHOULDN'T happen that bad and that is what annoys me about JDF. It really feels like he is not ready for prime time. They had to know BB would be bringing his A game. Where was ours?

5 years in on Zimmer it feels like he is has mellowed out and I don't like it. At this point it is safe to say he has an issue having his guys playing with a strong mental edge, especially in big spot games. Since his tenure there have always been games where his teams lay an egg. If we want a SB, that really can't happen. Secondly, it is safe to say that there is something amiss with the non-defensive hiring process when it comes to coaches. There has been a real issue finding a quality Offensive Playcaller as well as OL coach. (I thought Sparano was turning it around, but alas he passed away.)

The challenge here is I'm not sure what a greener pasture looks like. The roster is still strong, Look what is happening in Dallas right now. Last year in the offseason it felt like they had done nothing to address the issue. I had them pegged to underachieve, yet they have turned it around and the team is really playing well, especially on D. I think you have to stick with the staff a bit longer, at least until year 2 or 3 of Cousin's contract. Otherwise you blow it all up and start over, which I think would be very premature. Frankly it would be easier to can JDF and bring in somebody else vs. a new HC, at least IMO. The time to start over is probably 3 years from now when a lot of the extensions fall off. Either that or you blow it up sooner and endure a really hard year with a lot of dead cap space on the books.

I think Priefer is out this year, BTW. The Kicking woes are abnoxious and it has been happening way too long for it to be the players.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by TSonn » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:55 pm

I'm still on the fence about Zimmer. We've gone from "losing to teams we should beat" to "beating teams we should beat" under Zimmer, but we still rarely win against quality opponents aside from beating Rodgers a couple times and the miracle. With all this talent, we should expect more. I'm guessing Zimmer is tied to Cousins in terms of leash - the expectation is a super bowl in the next 3 years.

Also - maybe Zimmer shouldn't give the team a day off after each win. I think that Tuesday film session probably would have helped the players and the coaches immensely against the Pats.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:04 pm

My criticism of Zimmer yesterday was I don't think his team came out with the right attitude on either side of the ball. You're at Foxborough in December against a team that has dominated December for almost 2 decades. I don't think you come out and try to play straight up against a team like that. You have to throw in some wrinkles and be more aggressive. Get them off balance a little bit. Zim played them straight up on both sides of the ball, and the Pats just flat-out out-executed Zimmer's team, which is something they've been doing for those almost 2 decades so far.

And even worse, Zimmer seems to be doing this same thing against each good team he's faced this year. While not getting too high after a win is good, and not getting too low after a loss is good, it's always good for a playoff contender to be able to find that extra gear when necessary. Capture that extra spark and maybe get a little crazy. When I watched the Cowboys beat the Saints, I saw that in the Cowboys, especially on defense. When I watched the Bears play the Vikings, I saw it in the Bears too.

In Zimmer's team this year, I'm not seeing that. Maybe for a drive or two, especially when things are getting desperate because they're so far behind and not much time is left, but it's like they think that is the only time during a game when that is necessary.

Not sure where this team goes from here. I don't see it's character changing at this point in the season, and they're about to run into a team that is hot and hyped and home in Seattle. I just don't see how another flat performance produces a different result, either. If the 2018 Vikings hold true to form, they'll fall behind, then further behind, abandon the run, then make a mad dash towards the end of a game they will lose by a significant margin. If that happens, I don't know what should happen with the coaching staff, but I'd say this is a real prove-it game for them if they want to convince an increasingly large percentage of fans that they have what it takes to get the most out of the talent they've been giving to work with.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:08 pm

Cliff wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:29 am
Zimmer's defenses have had problems with quality opponents going back to his days in Cinci. Especially in the playoffs. He's the best coach the Vikings have had in a pretty long while. That doesn't mean he's good enough to take them to the super bowl though.

I'm not advocating firing him but I am definitely thinking about where that "he needs to go" line is.
I don't know if I agree with that. The defense played good enough to beat the Pats today and held them to over 3 pts fewer than their average. They held Brees to 120 yards passing in his best season. The Rams game, sure, they struggled, and against Philly they struggled in the NFCCG, but then so did the Pats the following week, and so has the entire league against the Rams. He has done well against good offenses, it is the offense that has not done well against the good defenses that has been the biggest problem.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by StpViking » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:09 pm

Hmmm. I guess from reading this thread, a lot of people on this board believed this is a Superbowl contending/winning team. That's why we are getting the fire Zimm call so quickly?

Just a reminder that this Defense would not be where it is at without Zimmer. I just can't think of any other coaches that I would take above Zimm for this team right now.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Cliff » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:37 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:08 pm
I don't know if I agree with that. The defense played good enough to beat the Pats today and held them to over 3 pts fewer than their average. They held Brees to 120 yards passing in his best season. The Rams game, sure, they struggled, and against Philly they struggled in the NFCCG, but then so did the Pats the following week, and so has the entire league against the Rams. He has done well against good offenses, it is the offense that has not done well against the good defenses that has been the biggest problem.
The defense definitely did not play good enough to beat NE. As evidence by the fact the team didn't win. :whistle:

I know what you're getting at - the offense didn't pull their weight. However ...

The defense's stats against NE:
472 yards total given up
3 TDs
1 take away
0 Sacks
Brady had a 102.5 Passer rating

That's not "good enough" for most games and definitely not against NE.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Mothman » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:45 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:08 pm
I don't know if I agree with that. The defense played good enough to beat the Pats today and held them to over 3 pts fewer than their average. They held Brees to 120 yards passing in his best season.
You're the third or fourth person I've seen make this point on the board and I have to say, it's not the feather in the cap of the Vikes defense it's made out to be.

The Saints dominated the Vikes. They ran the ball well and controlled that game most of the way. They got a big deep completion out of Hill. Brees never really needed to open it up because NO cruised to a pretty easy victory. The Vikings didn't "hold" him to 120 yards so much as they allowed the Saints to run it effectively and never made the game competitive enough that Brees needed to do more than manage it.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:27 pm

Mothman wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:45 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:08 pm
I don't know if I agree with that. The defense played good enough to beat the Pats today and held them to over 3 pts fewer than their average. They held Brees to 120 yards passing in his best season.
You're the third or fourth person I've seen make this point on the board and I have to say, it's not the feather in the cap of the Vikes defense it's made out to be.

The Saints dominated the Vikes. They ran the ball well and controlled that game most of the way. They got a big deep completion out of Hill. Brees never really needed to open it up because NO cruised to a pretty easy victory. The Vikings didn't "hold" him to 120 yards so much as they allowed the Saints to run it effectively and never made the game competitive enough that Brees needed to do more than manage it.
Still only gave up 23 pts to a team that is averaging 35. Brees was throwing a lot of short stuff to mitigate the pass rush and yes, could afford too because the Vikes offense wasn't keeping up with them, but if he has to hold the ball a little longer, who knows what happens?
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:42 pm

Cliff wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:37 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:08 pm
I don't know if I agree with that. The defense played good enough to beat the Pats today and held them to over 3 pts fewer than their average. They held Brees to 120 yards passing in his best season. The Rams game, sure, they struggled, and against Philly they struggled in the NFCCG, but then so did the Pats the following week, and so has the entire league against the Rams. He has done well against good offenses, it is the offense that has not done well against the good defenses that has been the biggest problem.
The defense definitely did not play good enough to beat NE. As evidence by the fact the team didn't win. :whistle:

I know what you're getting at - the offense didn't pull their weight. However ...

The defense's stats against NE:
472 yards total given up
3 TDs
1 take away
0 Sacks
Brady had a 102.5 Passer rating

That's not "good enough" for most games and definitely not against NE.
The D can't control what their offense can and can't do. You hold the Pats to 24 pts and that is a winnable game. In fact, this was the fewest points the pats have scored in a victory this season.

As for previous seasons in 2017 they held the #1 scoring offense to 7 pts and the #4 offense to 19. In 2016 they held the #4 offense to 14, and the #5 to 17. In 2015, the #1 offense to 23.

There are times when they struggled against top 5 scoring offense as well (38 versus Seattle in 2015, 38 versus the pack in 2016), but to say he can't stop good offenses is silly.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by Mothman » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:43 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:27 pm
Still only gave up 23 pts to a team that is averaging 35. Brees was throwing a lot of short stuff to mitigate the pass rush and yes, could afford too because the Vikes offense wasn't keeping up with them, but if he has to hold the ball a little longer, who knows what happens?
But he didn't have to hold the ball longer. Their game plan worked against the Vikings defense and they were in control. The Vikings defense didn't force them out of that game plan or make a bunch of plays that changed the direction of the game.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by akvikingsfan » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:09 pm

I posted this earlier this season, and I'll post it again, Zimmer's defense has been figured out. Philly exposed it last year and teams this year have figured out ways to take advantage of the scheme. All the stats in the world showing how they're a top 5-10 defense don't matter when the defense is giving up more points than the offense is scoring. There are weaknesses in the scheme and Zimmer seems to have no real solution. Running backs catching out of the backfield, TEs on certain routes, and it seems to me (I haven't looked it up) that they're giving up 4+ yards per carry. Zimmer has the FO support and the players to succeed. He just needs to get the job done.

JDF is a complete trash coach and should be fired the second the season is over. Bringing in a coach with no real experience (1 year in Cleveland doesn't count, they're looking at hiring a politician with no football knowledge as their next coach) as an OC for a team with championship aspirations was a terrible idea. JDF is not ready to be an OC at this level and should not continue in that role. I seriously hope he is gone after this season and they bring in someone with a real shot at helping this team win.

If I were the GM, we would be bringing in a new OC, a new Special teams coordinator, and Zimmer would be on a short leash. Lucky for all of them, I don't get paid to make these decisions.
Last edited by akvikingsfan on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:40 pm

Mothman wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:43 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:27 pm
Still only gave up 23 pts to a team that is averaging 35. Brees was throwing a lot of short stuff to mitigate the pass rush and yes, could afford too because the Vikes offense wasn't keeping up with them, but if he has to hold the ball a little longer, who knows what happens?
But he didn't have to hold the ball longer. Their game plan worked against the Vikings defense and they were in control. The Vikings defense didn't force them out of that game plan or make a bunch of plays that changed the direction of the game.
Holding a team to 270 yards on offense is pretty dang good and the Saints averaged 5.1 per play which would put them at 29th in NFL if they averaged that over a season, just barely ahead of the pitiful Jets.

Maybe if the offense didn't give them a TD and had actually made the game competitive Brees turns it on and scores 40, but the only time the guy took a shot in that game he threw a horrible pick due to pressure from the Vikes D. Just saying.
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Re: Vikings Patriots post game

Post by TSonn » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:40 pm

Cliff wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:37 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:08 pm
I don't know if I agree with that. The defense played good enough to beat the Pats today and held them to over 3 pts fewer than their average. They held Brees to 120 yards passing in his best season. The Rams game, sure, they struggled, and against Philly they struggled in the NFCCG, but then so did the Pats the following week, and so has the entire league against the Rams. He has done well against good offenses, it is the offense that has not done well against the good defenses that has been the biggest problem.
The defense definitely did not play good enough to beat NE. As evidence by the fact the team didn't win. :whistle:

I know what you're getting at - the offense didn't pull their weight. However ...

The defense's stats against NE:
472 yards total given up
3 TDs
1 take away
0 Sacks
Brady had a 102.5 Passer rating

That's not "good enough" for most games and definitely not against NE.
Plus it seemed like they could score quickly whenever they wanted. The drives that stalled were typically from trying to run the ball and control the clock.
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