O-Line vs. QB

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

Dmizzle0
Transition Player
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:03 pm

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Dmizzle0 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:02 pm

I remember an announcer saying that there can be plays that can help with a struggling o-line and I kind of agree. I thought our front 4 was able to break through a few times but Trubisky was able to scramble. Good Qbs like Rogers just gets rid of the ball quicker. Cousins just kept retreating There was a play when the o line collapsed and Cousin's rolled out and had space in front of him but, then immediately began retreating when he felt pressured.

Not to sound like Im only blaming Cousins, there's a huge issue with the oline, it could be blocking technique or just plain weak but not making adequate adjustments will be the Vikings downfall.
0 x

mansquatch
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3603
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: Coon Rapids, MN

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by mansquatch » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:05 pm

DMizzle you are hitting the nail on the head.

Again, 2016 season. Shurmer comes in and uses a QB like Sam Bradford, by far not a mobile QB, and puts in a quick passing west coast style system that works when your protection is a disaster. I will argue that as bad as this 2018 group is, it is not nearly the poop show that the 2016 group was.

So WHY (?) couldn't the Vikings install something similar for at least this game? We have the same two WR who were successful in that system still here, plus we have a guy named Dalvin Cook who near as I can tell is pretty good in the passing game and making people miss. That we didn't do this is just mind boggling. The fact that they didn't was just a total failure on the game plan, and the OC in particular. This is why I'm finding it hard to just blast the OL and the QB. The foundation of the offense they were calling was BAD. Everything fell apart as a result.
0 x
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi

mansquatch
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3603
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: Coon Rapids, MN

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by mansquatch » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:20 pm

Mothman wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:00 pm

It's likely a combination of factors. I don't know enough about the particulars of NE's OL strategy to say much about it but based on the way that team has been run over the years, I'm betting they do a good job of scouting and acquiring players who will be a good fit for what they do and because they've been able to firmly establish an approach there, they likely know just what they want.

It seems to me the Vikings have lacked a clear vision of just what they want to do on offense for years and that hurts them up and down the offense. In other words, it's not just a question of when or how talent is acquired. Does it fit? Is the team being constructed logically?

Over the years, Spielman has often been defended because he's found talented players but while that's true, finding talent is only part of a GM's job. Bringing talent, coaching and scheme together in a unified, sensible way is far more difficult.

As often as not, I get the feeling Rick is throwing talent at offensive problems like he's desperately trying to plug new leaks in a pipe. It's never seemed to me like there's any real vision for the offense.
New England got their old OL Coach to come out of retirement. They recognized that they needed to be able to take raw players and get them up to a competitive level. New England in many was is the poster child of why quality coaching and teaching matters. They've had no fewer than 11 wins in a season in the past what 16 seasons? That means they are never taking players in the first round higher than 20 unless they do a big trade. Yet the team is always competitive and is always finding players it needs. Part of it is being aggressive in FA, but another big part is Belicik's ability to get the most not just out of players, but also his coaches. They are building these guys up, often times new guys vs. old guys year in and year out. Why is is that they are able to do this and others teams are not?

My sense of the Vikings is they've found it difficult (outside of 2017) to get the OC, OL, and HC on the same page overall. I think Zimmer has an idea of what he wants. (And I do not think it is the ultra-conservative schtick the media puts on him) However, I think they've struggled to find the right people to do what is needed between OL and OC. In the case of Davidson, he wasn't developing the talent properly. Sparano, based on the 2017 campaign was heading on the right track in terms of righting the ship. But also, he passed. Barone is hard to judge. This year his interior group has been decimated by injuries almost from the get go.
I always felt Turner was a bad fit, which ultimately panned out when he ended up quitting. Shurmer worked out very well for us, but DeFelippo so far has not performed at the same level.

My perception is that right now the jury is out on if DeFelippo can integrate into this coaching staff. I have a sense that he wants to call more of a high risk/high reward offense, which isn't needed or desirable given the current roster. I also think he is failing to grasp what pieces he has and the considerations each requires. He needs to adapt quickly or the promise of this season will be lost. They've put themselves into a position where they are going to need to be in a dog fight for the last wild card spot. (Unless the Bears fall apart.)
0 x
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 37533
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Mothman » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:34 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:20 pm
New England got their old OL Coach to come out of retirement. They recognized that they needed to be able to take raw players and get them up to a competitive level. New England in many was is the poster child of why quality coaching and teaching matters. They've had no fewer than 11 wins in a season in the past what 16 seasons? That means they are never taking players in the first round higher than 20 unless they do a big trade. Yet the team is always competitive and is always finding players it needs. Part of it is being aggressive in FA, but another big part is Belicik's ability to get the most not just out of players, but also his coaches. They are building these guys up, often times new guys vs. old guys year in and year out. Why is is that they are able to do this and others teams are not?
Well, other teams do it with some measure success but NE has obviously been extraordinarily successful.

They're able to do it because they have a substantial degree of continuity and they clearly know how to identify players that will fit into what they want to do and develop them. Naturally, they don't have a 100% success rate but they obviously do a good job of scouting and coaching. They build logically.
My sense of the Vikings is they've found it difficult (outside of 2017) to get the OC, OL, and HC on the same page overall. I think Zimmer has an idea of what he wants. (And I do not think it is the ultra-conservative schtick the media puts on him) However, I think they've struggled to find the right people to do what is needed between OL and OC. In the case of Davidson, he wasn't developing the talent properly. Sparano, based on the 2017 campaign was heading on the right track in terms of righting the ship. But also, he passed. Barone is hard to judge. This year his interior group has been decimated by injuries almost from the get go.
I always felt Turner was a bad fit, which ultimately panned out when he ended up quitting. Shurmer worked out very well for us, but DeFelippo so far has not performed at the same level.
Maybe Zimmer knows what he wants but whatever it is, it's unclear to me. He and Spielman have pursued QBs, linemen and other offensive players with skill sets so diverse (and sometimes incompatible) that I really don't know what they're trying to do. He's chosen 3 OCs that are all pretty different from one another. The overall approach just seems to be "add talent and see what sticks".
My perception is that right now the jury is out on if DeFelippo can integrate into this coaching staff. I have a sense that he wants to call more of a high risk/high reward offense, which isn't needed or desirable given the current roster.
Which begs the question: why is he in Minnesota? His interest in running that kind of offense isn't a surprise.

The main differences I see between the Vikings and a team like NE are coaching, management and, of course, Tom Brady.
0 x

StumpHunter
Starter
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:57 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:56 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:41 am
I think we are seeing why Cousins has only beaten one playoff team and 4 winning teams in his entire career.

The oline is bad and we have no cap to make it better.

Going to be a long 3 years.
We dont need cap to make it better. We need to continue to draft OL better. We already have a bunch of money tied up in Reiff and Remmers. Cut Remmers, keep Reiff, move him to RT, Oneill to LT, Elflein is solid at C, draft an OG early along with a mid level signing for the other guard spot..... line improved.

You act like we're dead in the water with your "we have no cap" rant. We dont need cap space, no less I dont want to drop big money on another OL. Build through the draft. The last two we've picked "early" (Oneill and Elf) have panned out. Keep it going. We can cut Remmers in the offseason, save 11.5 million over 2 years and only take a 1.8 million dead cap hit. So instead of continuing to say we're dead in the water and "have no cap" actually look into it and see how we can save money and put it to good use. We probably have one of the best cap guys in the league in Bryzinski and you're worried about cap saying we're going to have "a long 3 years". We have $10 million going into next year not counting any cap casualties. Remmers alone saves nearly $6 million. The Jaguars and Eagles are $10 million or more in the NEGATIVE right now. They might as well fold their franchises if they're going by your standards...
Jags and Eagles ARE screwed. They are bad teams that are up against the cap, it will likely take years for them to get back to being good again.
Cut Remmers, keep Reiff, move him to RT, Oneill to LT, Elflein is solid at C, draft an OG early along with a mid level signing for the other guard spot..... line improved.
Easy peasy.

It obviously is possible to draft a couple of starters on the Oline that will dramatically improve it. It is also possible Oniel can develop into a great LT. The odds are against it though, and having money to spend on free agents, good ones, not "mid level" signings, would make those odds of fixing the line significantly better.

My guess is, we will be blaming the Oline for all of Cousins' problems for the next three seasons. Which really sucks.
0 x

User avatar
allday1991
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:31 pm

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by allday1991 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:02 am

Reminds me of the saints last year. Drew brees had a off year by his standards last year, everyone said age might be catching up. Add a few oline pieces, dont let the guy get sacked in five games and he turns back to beast mode. The fact alone cousins has more batted balls than any qb tellls me his oline does a bad job at keeping d-line from jumping for balls ( yes thats the olines job) and also on the throws he does get off the pocket has been pushed to fair off the line. The less the oline gets pushed back (especially in the middle) results in less tipped balls.
1 x
“I remember my mistakes more than my success.” - Adrian Peterson

StumpHunter
Starter
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:16 am

allday1991 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:02 am
Reminds me of the saints last year. Drew brees had a off year by his standards last year, everyone said age might be catching up. Add a few oline pieces, dont let the guy get sacked in five games and he turns back to beast mode. The fact alone cousins has more batted balls than any qb tellls me his oline does a bad job at keeping d-line from jumping for balls ( yes thats the olines job) and also on the throws he does get off the pocket has been pushed to fair off the line. The less the oline gets pushed back (especially in the middle) results in less tipped balls.
Brees was sacked 20 times last season, the lowest number in 9 years. The reason his numbers were down was because he threw the ball 120 times fewer than the previous year, because he had a great run game for the first time in what seems like a decade. Their Oline has the same starters this year as last, they just went from very good to elite this season. It is the difference maker, but the Saints already had the pieces in place, which I don't think we do, at least from a run blocking standpoint.

People were talking about him being off, I agree, but I think that was more towards the end of the season, when his passes didn't seem to have the zip they once had, and he wasn't making throws he had made regularly in previous seasons. We will see if that happens again this year, and it would be good if it did for us Vikings fans.
0 x

User avatar
allday1991
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:31 pm

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by allday1991 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:47 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:16 am
allday1991 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:02 am
Reminds me of the saints last year. Drew brees had a off year by his standards last year, everyone said age might be catching up. Add a few oline pieces, dont let the guy get sacked in five games and he turns back to beast mode. The fact alone cousins has more batted balls than any qb tellls me his oline does a bad job at keeping d-line from jumping for balls ( yes thats the olines job) and also on the throws he does get off the pocket has been pushed to fair off the line. The less the oline gets pushed back (especially in the middle) results in less tipped balls.
Brees was sacked 20 times last season, the lowest number in 9 years. The reason his numbers were down was because he threw the ball 120 times fewer than the previous year, because he had a great run game for the first time in what seems like a decade. Their Oline has the same starters this year as last, they just went from very good to elite this season. It is the difference maker, but the Saints already had the pieces in place, which I don't think we do, at least from a run blocking standpoint.

People were talking about him being off, I agree, but I think that was more towards the end of the season, when his passes didn't seem to have the zip they once had, and he wasn't making throws he had made regularly in previous seasons. We will see if that happens again this year, and it would be good if it did for us Vikings fans.
I agree. However i think the main point sticks that a good o-line, allows a good qb to be better. I assume brees will break his record of only getting sacked 20 times season this year? ( not sure what he is at now), and hes on pace for a 80% completion percentage which is unreal. And again drew brees is great, but he isnt doing that without a good oline. Infact with a bad oline i think the saints would have a worse record than us to this point.
0 x
“I remember my mistakes more than my success.” - Adrian Peterson

User avatar
9man
Transition Player
Posts: 354
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by 9man » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:28 am

The big boys in the trenches fly under the radar but a competent o-line can make a good offense great. Maybe in the next draft we only draft linemen. It's so crazy it just might work! :v):
0 x

User avatar
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 5729
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:49 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:57 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:56 pm


We dont need cap to make it better. We need to continue to draft OL better. We already have a bunch of money tied up in Reiff and Remmers. Cut Remmers, keep Reiff, move him to RT, Oneill to LT, Elflein is solid at C, draft an OG early along with a mid level signing for the other guard spot..... line improved.

You act like we're dead in the water with your "we have no cap" rant. We dont need cap space, no less I dont want to drop big money on another OL. Build through the draft. The last two we've picked "early" (Oneill and Elf) have panned out. Keep it going. We can cut Remmers in the offseason, save 11.5 million over 2 years and only take a 1.8 million dead cap hit. So instead of continuing to say we're dead in the water and "have no cap" actually look into it and see how we can save money and put it to good use. We probably have one of the best cap guys in the league in Bryzinski and you're worried about cap saying we're going to have "a long 3 years". We have $10 million going into next year not counting any cap casualties. Remmers alone saves nearly $6 million. The Jaguars and Eagles are $10 million or more in the NEGATIVE right now. They might as well fold their franchises if they're going by your standards...
Jags and Eagles ARE screwed. They are bad teams that are up against the cap, it will likely take years for them to get back to being good again.
Cut Remmers, keep Reiff, move him to RT, Oneill to LT, Elflein is solid at C, draft an OG early along with a mid level signing for the other guard spot..... line improved.
Easy peasy.

It obviously is possible to draft a couple of starters on the Oline that will dramatically improve it. It is also possible Oniel can develop into a great LT. The odds are against it though, and having money to spend on free agents, good ones, not "mid level" signings, would make those odds of fixing the line significantly better.

My guess is, we will be blaming the Oline for all of Cousins' problems for the next three seasons. Which really sucks.
The Jags and Eagles are bad teams? What? They are two teams that are loaded with talent but aren’t putting it together. The eagles DBs have been destroyed by injuries and the jags are continuing to be held back by Bortles. Outside of that, these teams are very talented. The raiders are a bad team. The 49ers are a bad team. The eagles and jags are far from being “bad” teams dude. You’re acting like they need to fill tons of holes. They have a couple holes, max. Not hard to fix.

As for the OL, how often are big money free agent lineman making a difference anymore?? They’re not. We already have a ton of money invested in Reiff and Remmers. Now we need to invest more? No. We just paid $57 million for an average left tackle. An average at best RG/RT is getting paid $30+ in Remmers. You’re ok with paying these average offensive lineman big money but you’re not ok with paying the best QB to touch the market in a long time big money? Instead, settle for below average QBs like Teddy and Keenum? Sorry but that doesn’t make any sense. Everyone raves about the cowboys OL and they built entirely through the draft. Smith, Martin, Frederick and Williams were all drafted by them. Collins was signed as an UDFA right after the draft.

Guys like Solder, Wagner, Pugh, etc arent making much of difference right now. Along with Reiff, Remmers and many others. You don’t build an offensive line through free agency. We have two big money free agents. We need to draft one early at least. If we go into next year with Reiff, 1st round pick, Elflein, mid range FA or mid rounder, and O’Neill. I’m good with an OL like that. And it’s much cheaper and more effective
0 x
Image

User avatar
Rhodes Closed
Starter
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:21 am
Location: Sleepy Eye, Minnesota

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Rhodes Closed » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:11 pm

I'm still curious at people's opinions of Jones starting at Center and Elflein starting at Guard (his natural position in college).
0 x

User avatar
PacificNorseWest
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2632
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 am
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by PacificNorseWest » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:45 pm

Rhodes Closed wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:11 pm
I'm still curious at people's opinions of Jones starting at Center and Elflein starting at Guard (his natural position in college).
It's hard to answer. On paper, just inserting the names in those spots seems like it may help optimize the offensive line, but what we do know is that Elflein has proven to be an effective center and seems to be a key leader as the center. The center provides the majority of the communication for the offensive line and also lends help to the QB. If he's skilled and excels at doing those things, I think you need to keep him at center.

With that said, I mentioned right off that it's hard to answer because we aren't at practice and we don't necessarily know the capabilities or communication abilities/leadership of Jones to even give ourselves a good measure of comparison.

I'll trust the coaches with this one and it's mainly because Elflein has proven to be one of the better, if not the best, of the members on the line as a rookie/2nd year pro.
0 x

User avatar
PurpleMustReign
Starting Wide Receiver
Posts: 18720
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Crystal, MN

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by PurpleMustReign » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:38 pm

Has Jones played at all this season?
0 x
The Devil whispered in the Viking's ear, "There's a storm coming." The Viking replied, "I am the storm." ‪#‎SKOL2018

User avatar
PacificNorseWest
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2632
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 am
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by PacificNorseWest » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:59 pm

He may have started 1 game soon after having been traded for. Could be wrong though.
0 x

User avatar
PurpleMustReign
Starting Wide Receiver
Posts: 18720
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Crystal, MN

Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by PurpleMustReign » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:20 pm

PacificNorseWest wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:59 pm
He may have started 1 game soon after having been traded for. Could be wrong though.
Well can he be any worse than what we have? This OL thing gets old.
0 x
The Devil whispered in the Viking's ear, "There's a storm coming." The Viking replied, "I am the storm." ‪#‎SKOL2018