O-Line vs. QB

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Texas Vike
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Texas Vike » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:02 am

Moth sighting!

Anyone else find it funny how Collinsworth talked about how well Kirk Cousins stays calm in the pocket? It was plain as day that he was rattled from the very beginning of the game.

I'll go with 50/40/10, OL, Cousins, DeFelipo.

If we lose to the Pack next Sunday, the season will be officially over. As it is now, we're hanging on by a thread.
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Mothman » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:06 am

Texas Vike wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:02 am
Moth sighting!
I live!
Anyone else find it funny how Collinsworth talked about how well Kirk Cousins stays calm in the pocket? It was plain as day that he was rattled from the very beginning of the game.

I'll go with 50/40/10, OL, Cousins, DeFelipo.

If we lose to the Pack next Sunday, the season will be officially over. As it is now, we're hanging on by a thread
Agreed.

I was at the game so I didn't get to hear the Collinsworth and Michaels call it but I agree that Cousins looked rattled. He sure didn't played like the QB they're paying him to be...
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by mansquatch » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:49 am

IMO it was mostly DeFelippo. The game plan and play calling was a complete disaster. It felt like he watches tape of a different group of OL vs. the ones he puts on the field each week. This was quite similar to the Buffalo game in that a talented Defensive Front was able to completely wreck our offense. The play calling and game plan completely failed to account for the talent on the other side of the ball and the match up issues it entailed. Most of us on here knew that our OL vs. the Bears DL was a mismatch. Why didn't the game plan account for this? I can't help but think about the 2016 season when Shurmer took over for Turner and basically installed an offense that assumed our pass protection would be terrible. (That OL was worse than this one) Why couldn't that style of offense be used last night when we knew going it we were going to have issues? Why haven't they been practicing that stuff in anticipation of what teams will do to their obvious weakness?

On top of the above, why did it take until the 4th quarter to make a drastic change to something, anything, that would work instead of continuing to bang our head against that DL? Previously the Buffalo game was DeFelippo's worst game with the Vikings. This game is now #1 IMO. Reason: He had the experience of the Buffalo disaster under his belt and he STILL made the mistake.

Complete Coaching Disaster IMO.

The OL sucked, not much needs to be said there. However, I really feel that they were not put in a position where they any real chance to succeed. When you see 315 pounds of Reilly Reiff getting literally pushed off his feet and thrown aside like he is just an annoyance you can tell you are facing a special group of DL. What is aggravating is that this was entirely predictable. Khalil Mack already had his coming out party two seasons ago. Ditto with Hicks. Why wasn't the play calling / game planning designed to account for this? Why wasn't Mack chipped on every single down? I think if we replay that game 10 times with that game plan we probably lost it at least 9 times, maybe all 10.

Cousins wasn't great last night, the pick 6 was a terrible throw, but this wasn't a game one where the QB made us lose, at least not to me.

I agree on the Drafting thing, Hughes did show signs of being a stud but given the needs on OL it was a mistake to take him. This thing is, that can't be changed now.
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:41 am

I think we are seeing why Cousins has only beaten one playoff team and 4 winning teams in his entire career.

The oline is bad and we have no cap to make it better.

Going to be a long 3 years.
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:56 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:41 am
I think we are seeing why Cousins has only beaten one playoff team and 4 winning teams in his entire career.

The oline is bad and we have no cap to make it better.

Going to be a long 3 years.
We dont need cap to make it better. We need to continue to draft OL better. We already have a bunch of money tied up in Reiff and Remmers. Cut Remmers, keep Reiff, move him to RT, Oneill to LT, Elflein is solid at C, draft an OG early along with a mid level signing for the other guard spot..... line improved.

You act like we're dead in the water with your "we have no cap" rant. We dont need cap space, no less I dont want to drop big money on another OL. Build through the draft. The last two we've picked "early" (Oneill and Elf) have panned out. Keep it going. We can cut Remmers in the offseason, save 11.5 million over 2 years and only take a 1.8 million dead cap hit. So instead of continuing to say we're dead in the water and "have no cap" actually look into it and see how we can save money and put it to good use. We probably have one of the best cap guys in the league in Bryzinski and you're worried about cap saying we're going to have "a long 3 years". We have $10 million going into next year not counting any cap casualties. Remmers alone saves nearly $6 million. The Jaguars and Eagles are $10 million or more in the NEGATIVE right now. They might as well fold their franchises if they're going by your standards...
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by S197 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:46 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:11 am
S197 wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:16 am
Tonight? 50/30/20 broken down between OL, JDF, and Cousins. Forget protection issues for a moment, which were huge, we had 22 yards rushing. You're not winning games with your RBs getting hit behind the LOS. It's makes the game one dimensional and allows guys like Mack to wreck. It makes red zone scoring exponentially harder.

We didn't lose this game based on tonight, the bye, or even the beginning of the season. We lost this game in April. This team had one glaring weakness and it's egregious to continue to turn a blind eye to it. We don't need a gaggle of 1st round picks in our secondary, Patrick Peterson in a trade, or another expensive D-lineman. We need a god damn offensive line and we've needed one for years. A real commitment. Not Tom Compton and Coby Gossett (who isn't even on the team anymore so great pick there) type pickups. Real commitment.

Until that happens this team will wallow in an above average-decent ceiling. You can bring Tom Brady in here and he's not doing squat with 22 yards rushing and unobstructed freebie hits on the QB. Spielman and Zimmer need their feet held to the fire, this is 100% a mismanagement issue.
If you are going to blame jdf you need to group Zimmer and spielman as well. This off season was an epic fail when it comes to the OL. Yes we got O'Neil but what else? There were veterans available and we chose to work the defense and horrifically over pay an average QB. Washington is probably laughing their #### off at us.
I am so sick of having the same problems year in and year out. It is impossible to have an elite defense anymore and Zimmer and spielman refuse to acknowledge that.
I mean my April comment and entire last sentence basically holds them accountable too.
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by StpViking » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:39 pm

Some great write ups on this board. My only input is what people here have been warning about for months now. This OL has allow so many QB hits on Cousins that his timing is way off. He is seeing ghost out there. BUT that doesn't excuse him not even trying to pick up first down with his feet. He had multiple chances in the Bears game where the field in front of him was wide open for 10-15 yard runs. Also DFlip didn't try no huddle until the end of the game, should have been doing that all game.

So for me it's 50% OL, 50% Cousins, 50% DFlip. It's Vikings math, and you know that totally works.
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by 808vikingsfan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:27 am

StpViking wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:39 pm
Some great write ups on this board. My only input is what people here have been warning about for months now. This OL has allow so many QB hits on Cousins that his timing is way off. He is seeing ghost out there. BUT that doesn't excuse him not even trying to pick up first down with his feet. He had multiple chances in the Bears game where the field in front of him was wide open for 10-15 yard runs. Also DFlip didn't try no huddle until the end of the game, should have been doing that all game.

So for me it's 50% OL, 50% Cousins, 50% DFlip. It's Vikings math, and you know that totally works.
Look at tonight. Pocket was collapsing on Mahomes all night. Cousins is getting hit because he cannot scramble and evade pressure. IMO, he's like Bradford and Ponder put together. Can throw like Bradford but can only sit in the pocket . has no feel for pressure in the pocket like Ponder. While the OL is about average, it's clear to me that the limitations on Cousins is hurting this team. Anyway we can trade for R. Wilson?
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by purplehaze » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:16 am

808vikingsfan wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:27 am
Look at tonight. Pocket was collapsing on Mahomes all night. Cousins is getting hit because he cannot scramble and evade pressure. IMO, he's like Bradford and Ponder put together. Can throw like Bradford but can only sit in the pocket . has no feel for pressure in the pocket like Ponder. While the OL is about average, it's clear to me that the limitations on Cousins is hurting this team. Anyway we can trade for R. Wilson?
I totally agree what you said about the game last night and Mahomes. He was running for his life much of the time trying to avoid the four #1 draft picks. They still scored over 50 points. I just hope you are wrong that Cuz is like Bradford and Ponder put together. :wallbang:
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Cliff » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:24 am

808vikingsfan wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:27 am
Cousins is getting hit because he cannot scramble and evade pressure. IMO, he's like Bradford and Ponder put together. Can throw like Bradford but can only sit in the pocket . has no feel for pressure in the pocket like Ponder. While the OL is about average, it's clear to me that the limitations on Cousins is hurting this team. Anyway we can trade for R. Wilson?
Cousins inability to scramble effectively is a very big deal behind this offensive line. I think it is one of the reasons that you get a lot of argument for Keenum on this board so often. Case is obviously not the better QB when it comes to almost everything ... but being able to extend plays when the offensive line falls apart is *huge* on this team the way it's built. Case seemed to have almost super human ability to escape the pass rush and feel out the pocket. Cousins just isn't very good at that.
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:36 am

Cliff wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:24 am
808vikingsfan wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:27 am
Cousins is getting hit because he cannot scramble and evade pressure. IMO, he's like Bradford and Ponder put together. Can throw like Bradford but can only sit in the pocket . has no feel for pressure in the pocket like Ponder. While the OL is about average, it's clear to me that the limitations on Cousins is hurting this team. Anyway we can trade for R. Wilson?
Cousins inability to scramble effectively is a very big deal behind this offensive line. I think it is one of the reasons that you get a lot of argument for Keenum on this board so often. Case is obviously not the better QB when it comes to almost everything ... but being able to extend plays when the offensive line falls apart is *huge* on this team the way it's built. Case seemed to have almost super human ability to escape the pass rush and feel out the pocket. Cousins just isn't very good at that.
But again this is something I mentioned before in a previous post. Keenum has been sacked 24 times this year in Denver (who has a better OL than we do). Cousins has been sacked 26. Keenum has scrambled NINE times this year. Cousins has scrambled 28. That is a giant difference and it's part of the reason why I dont buy into this argument of Keenum being so good under pressure. It's also continuing to tell me more and more about last season as well with Keenum. It was truly a Houdini type season he had.

He's not repeating ANY of last years success. With 6 games left, he's on pace for way less TDs, way more INTs, way less scrambles, way more sacks taken and a much worse record than last year. The Broncos arent the Raiders. They have talent on both sides of the ball. Not the talent the Vikings have, but not THAT far off either. Like PFF said, he's been one of the worst starting QBs in the league this year. Whether he "clicked" here or not, he's coming back to earth. Kirk Cousins played on some weaker teams than the Broncos in Washington and still played at a high level.

And for the record, Cousins has 8 fumbles this year. Keenum has 6. And for those after Cousins on his "fumbling issues", the one you're asking to trade for, Russell Wilson, has 9 fumbles and leads the league. And QB's such as Watson, Rodgers, Big Ben, Prescott, Mahomes, Wentz, Goff and Newton (have either the same amount or 1-2 less fumbles than Cousins does this year). And most of those QBs have a much better OL than we do. But it goes to show with Wilson that no matter how mobile you are and no matter how "good" you are, when you have that bad of an OL, fumbles are bound to happen when you're getting pressured that often. Russell Wilson is probably the most mobile QB in the NFL and he's been sacked 32 times this year. 4 more than Kirk Cousins.

Overall, the Vikings arent repeating last years success (which is much harder to do than some think) and there was a big QB change in the offseason. In turn, fans are looking for reasons and looking for someone or something to blame. Cousins pocket presence and fumbling is where some are resorting to. His mobility is another. Zimmer, Spielman, the offensive line, DeFillipo, etc. When it comes to Cousins, again I'm not saying he's the best QB in the league, I'm not saying he's done nothing wrong but I am laying out the numbers to prove that this argument vs Keenum carries very little weight. These numbers dont lie. Cousins is in the same company with the best in the biz when it comes to fumbles. He's scrambled way more than some think. He's not Russell Wilson from a mobility standpoint obviously, but he's not a stiff like Peyton Manning either. He's a pure pocket passer. Guys like Brady and Manning were stiffs in the pocket but were great QBs. Not comparing them with Cousins but that's the type of passer Cousins is. His 40 time was 4.93, Keenum was 4.82. It doesnt carry much weight but it's not like Keenum is a superior athlete to Cousins like Russell Wilson is.

I just wont buy the Keenum argument. Never will. Whether it be record, stats, mobility, etc. Kirk Cousins was our best option IMO. I throw him $84 million any day. It's the going rate. He's pretty much better than Keenum in just about any category you could ask for when talking about a true, consistent QB.
Last edited by Pondering Her Percy on Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by mansquatch » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:45 am

The Cousins discussion has gone off the deep end. Feel free to be upset with me, but you guys are nuts. Is it the QB or the game plan or the protection? They are not all in silos.

Back to the OL, perhaps the OL issue is coaching? (Or maybe they were not put in a position to succeed by a crap game plan?)

Consider, the NE Current OL Starters and their respective Draft Position:

LT: 7th
LG: 3rd
C: Undrafted Free Agent
RG: 4th
RT: 5th

Vikings OL:

LT: 1st
LG: 6th
C: 3rd
RG: UFA
RT: 2nd (or UFA if they start Hill)

Source: ESPN.COM for both groups.

From a pure draft equity standpoint I'd argue that these groups are rather similar. We have a lot more equity at Tackle and Center, they have a lot more at Guard. Maybe Tony Sparano's untimely death had something to do with the current situation? As I've said before, not drafting OL early IS a strategy. Maybe guys don't like it. Fine. But other teams are finding success doing it, ergo the above. So is Rick the problem or is it Clancy Barone?
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Cliff » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:57 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:36 am
But again this is something I mentioned before in a previous post. Keenum has been sacked 24 times this year in Denver (who has a better OL than we do). Cousins has been sacked 26. Keenum has scrambled NINE times this year. Cousins has scrambled 28. That is a giant difference and it's part of the reason why I dont buy into this argument of Keenum being so good under pressure. It's also continuing to tell me more and more about last season as well with Keenum. It was truly a Houdini type season he had.

He's not repeating ANY of last years success. With 6 games left, he's on pace for way less TDs, way more INTs, way less scrambles, way more sacks taken and a much worse record than last year. The Broncos arent the Raiders. They have talent on both sides of the ball. Not the talent the Vikings have, but not THAT far off either. Like PFF said, he's been one of the worst starting QBs in the league this year. Whether he "clicked" here or not, he's coming back to earth. Kirk Cousins played on some weaker teams than the Broncos in Washington and still played at a high level.
Keenum doesn't have what it takes to elevate a bad team for sure. Though, I don't think Cousins does either. Washington seems to be on pace to be better off without him. Maybe not now that they've lost their starting QB but I suppose we'll see.

Kirk Cousins is the better QB I'm just in the camp of not being sure that he's a big enough upgrade to the team.

For starters Keenum went from passing to the arguably best WR tandem in the league to ... not. I'm assuming your receivers getting open more consistently helps you not hold the ball so long.

The team isn't having as much success with Kirk playing but he's got a more difficult schedule and there are a bunch of other variables - though a lot of the core offense is still there.
Overall, the Vikings arent repeating last years success (which is much harder to do than some think) and there was a big QB change in the offseason. In turn, fans are looking for reasons and looking for someone or something to blame. Cousins pocket presence and fumbling is where some are resorting to. His mobility is another.
I think it's natural for people to focus on the biggest change and most expensive to the roster. When the team loses then people focus whatever his negatives might be. His pocket presence comes up because behind the offensive line (the actual biggest weakness of the team) it's his biggest exposed weakness.

The fumbles are a result of being hit/under pressure so much. That's not on him in my opinion. Like you point out, he's not really doing it at an abnormal rate anyway.
Zimmer, Spielman, the offensive line, DeFillipo, etc. When it comes to Cousins, again I'm not saying he's the best QB in the league, I'm not saying he's done nothing wrong but I am laying out the numbers to prove that this argument vs Keenum carries very little weight. These numbers dont lie.
I'm also not saying Keenum is a better QB than Cousins. I'm not sure the difference in production would be as significant for *this* team though ... especially in the Wins and Losses category.

The numbers don't lie but variables have to be considered. Do we think Keenum probably looks better if he's throwing to Diggs and Thielen? He very obviously does if last year is any indication.
Cousins is in the same company with the best in the biz when it comes to fumbles. He's scrambled way more than some think. He's not Russell Wilson from a mobility standpoint obviously, but he's not a stiff like Peyton Manning either. He's a pure pocket passer. Guys like Brady and Manning were stiffs in the pocket but were great QBs. Not comparing them with Cousins but that's the type of passer Cousins is. His 40 time was 4.93, Keenum was 4.82. It doesnt carry much weight but it's not like Keenum is a superior athlete to Cousins like Russell Wilson is.
And that type of QB isn't as compatible with a weak offensive line.

Keenum isn't a superior athlete (by a wide margin) which is what makes it even more weird to me. Keenum was definitely better at avoiding pressure and getting out of tough situations. Maybe it was a one year thing.
I just wont buy the Keenum argument. Never will. Whether it be record, stats, mobility, etc. Kirk Cousins was our best option IMO. I throw him $84 million any day. It's the going rate. He's pretty much better than Keenum in just about any category you could ask for when talking about a true, consistent QB.
I don't buy that Keenum would be doing significantly better this year. I am saying I don't think he'd be doing far worse (win/loss wise). His stats probably wouldn't be as good but how much worse would the team be doing where it matters?

I think what people end up arguing isn't that people think Keenum is better ... but rather it seems like the team messed with the "special sauce". They fixed a situation that wasn't broken.

I won't blame the team for upgrading a position and Cousins *is* an upgrade as a player and it was a tough decision. Then you start thinking about the salary and you look at the team's record and it seems like it wasn't worth it.

There are variables to keep in mind that are impacting the team's record for sure. That our offensive line coach died in the off season. New offensive coordinator. Our starting DE went out for several games after making a scene in the hotel where the players stay the day before they lost to the Bills.

The same question comes up though - how many more losses would the team have with Case at QB? We've beat all teams with losing records. 49ers, Cardinals, Eagles, Lions, Jets. Any doubts the team could beat those teams with Case at QB? I've got little.

How much better would the Bronco's record be with Cousins on the team?
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:45 pm

Cliff wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:57 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:36 am
But again this is something I mentioned before in a previous post. Keenum has been sacked 24 times this year in Denver (who has a better OL than we do). Cousins has been sacked 26. Keenum has scrambled NINE times this year. Cousins has scrambled 28. That is a giant difference and it's part of the reason why I dont buy into this argument of Keenum being so good under pressure. It's also continuing to tell me more and more about last season as well with Keenum. It was truly a Houdini type season he had.

He's not repeating ANY of last years success. With 6 games left, he's on pace for way less TDs, way more INTs, way less scrambles, way more sacks taken and a much worse record than last year. The Broncos arent the Raiders. They have talent on both sides of the ball. Not the talent the Vikings have, but not THAT far off either. Like PFF said, he's been one of the worst starting QBs in the league this year. Whether he "clicked" here or not, he's coming back to earth. Kirk Cousins played on some weaker teams than the Broncos in Washington and still played at a high level.
Keenum doesn't have what it takes to elevate a bad team for sure. Though, I don't think Cousins does either. Washington seems to be on pace to be better off without him. Maybe not now that they've lost their starting QB but I suppose we'll see.

Kirk Cousins is the better QB I'm just in the camp of not being sure that he's a big enough upgrade to the team.

For starters Keenum went from passing to the arguably best WR tandem in the league to ... not. I'm assuming your receivers getting open more consistently helps you not hold the ball so long.

The team isn't having as much success with Kirk playing but he's got a more difficult schedule and there are a bunch of other variables - though a lot of the core offense is still there.
Overall, the Vikings arent repeating last years success (which is much harder to do than some think) and there was a big QB change in the offseason. In turn, fans are looking for reasons and looking for someone or something to blame. Cousins pocket presence and fumbling is where some are resorting to. His mobility is another.
I think it's natural for people to focus on the biggest change and most expensive to the roster. When the team loses then people focus whatever his negatives might be. His pocket presence comes up because behind the offensive line (the actual biggest weakness of the team) it's his biggest exposed weakness.

The fumbles are a result of being hit/under pressure so much. That's not on him in my opinion. Like you point out, he's not really doing it at an abnormal rate anyway.
Zimmer, Spielman, the offensive line, DeFillipo, etc. When it comes to Cousins, again I'm not saying he's the best QB in the league, I'm not saying he's done nothing wrong but I am laying out the numbers to prove that this argument vs Keenum carries very little weight. These numbers dont lie.
I'm also not saying Keenum is a better QB than Cousins. I'm not sure the difference in production would be as significant for *this* team though ... especially in the Wins and Losses category.

The numbers don't lie but variables have to be considered. Do we think Keenum probably looks better if he's throwing to Diggs and Thielen? He very obviously does if last year is any indication.
Cousins is in the same company with the best in the biz when it comes to fumbles. He's scrambled way more than some think. He's not Russell Wilson from a mobility standpoint obviously, but he's not a stiff like Peyton Manning either. He's a pure pocket passer. Guys like Brady and Manning were stiffs in the pocket but were great QBs. Not comparing them with Cousins but that's the type of passer Cousins is. His 40 time was 4.93, Keenum was 4.82. It doesnt carry much weight but it's not like Keenum is a superior athlete to Cousins like Russell Wilson is.
And that type of QB isn't as compatible with a weak offensive line.

Keenum isn't a superior athlete which is what makes it even more weird to me. Keenum was definitely better at avoiding pressure and getting out of tough situations. Maybe it was a one year thing.
I just wont buy the Keenum argument. Never will. Whether it be record, stats, mobility, etc. Kirk Cousins was our best option IMO. I throw him $84 million any day. It's the going rate. He's pretty much better than Keenum in just about any category you could ask for when talking about a true, consistent QB.
I don't buy that Keenum would be doing significantly better this year. I am saying I don't think he'd be doing far worse (win/loss wise). His stats probably wouldn't be as good but how much worse would the team be doing where it matters?

I think what people end up arguing isn't that people think Keenum is better ... but rather it seems like the team messed with the "special sauce". They fixed a situation that wasn't broken.

I won't blame the team for upgrading a position and Cousins *is* an upgrade as a player and it was a tough decision. Then you start thinking about the salary and you look at the team's record and it seems like it wasn't worth it.

There are variables to keep in mind that are impacting the team's record for sure. That our offensive line coach died in the off season. New offensive coordinator. Our starting DE went out for several games after making a scene in the hotel where the players stay the day before they lost to the Bills.

The same question comes up though - how many more losses would the team have with Case at QB? We've beat all teams with losing records. 49ers, Cardinals, Eagles, Lions, Jets. Any doubts the team could beat those teams with Case at QB? I've got little.

How much better would the Bronco's record be with Cousins on the team?
You make some good points Cliff. Some things I disagree with without having to quote everything:

I get it, Diggs and Thielen are special, but the Broncos arent fielding Allen Hurns, Tavon Austin and Michael Gallup (Dallas's WRs in the beginning of the year) either. To be honest, to start the year, they were fielding one of the NFL's better trio's in Thomas, Sanders and Sutton. Granted Thomas was traded but not until week 9. He had PLENTY of talent at the WR position to succeed.

As for who would Case have lost to if he was here? I would say he beats most of them but loses to Philly at least. That was a game that required a heavier dose of passing and execution due to Philly's elite run defense and Cousins delivered with pinpoint accuracy. Also, Case got whooped by the Jets this year. So who knows there. I would say Case is at least 1-2 wins worse right now than Cousins as well as 1 tie worse. So if that was the case, he would be around 3-7 or 4-6. Pretty much what he is now in Denver. As for Cousins in Denver, I think it would be a huge difference. Reason being, Cousins beat the Jets pretty handily this year and I dont doubt they beat the Chiefs both times as well as the Rams. I sound insane right? lol Hear me out. The Jets are one thing but against both the Chiefs (twice) and the Rams, they only lost by a TD or less. Their defense kept both those teams in check. Keenum went for 4TDs and 3 INTs in THREE games against two of the worst pass defenses in the NFL. But he was also averaging in the upper 7's for YPA as well as some of his highest yardage on the year. Accuracy? Not so much. Cousins lit one of those defense up this year. I would think he'd do the same to KC's who is the NFL's worst passing defense currently. That would put the Broncos at roughly 7-3 or 6-4 with a couple of nail biters that could have also given them another win or two.

In the end it means nothing and we would never know, but yeah, if the defense is holding up there end, Cousins would have no problem beating the Chiefs and Rams for sure. Keenum doesnt have that ability to go toe to toe with a high powered offense. Cousins does.
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Mothman
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Re: O-Line vs. QB

Post by Mothman » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:00 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:45 am
The Cousins discussion has gone off the deep end. Feel free to be upset with me, but you guys are nuts. Is it the QB or the game plan or the protection? They are not all in silos.

Back to the OL, perhaps the OL issue is coaching? (Or maybe they were not put in a position to succeed by a crap game plan?)

Consider, the NE Current OL Starters and their respective Draft Position:

LT: 7th
LG: 3rd
C: Undrafted Free Agent
RG: 4th
RT: 5th

Vikings OL:

LT: 1st
LG: 6th
C: 3rd
RG: UFA
RT: 2nd (or UFA if they start Hill)

Source: ESPN.COM for both groups.

From a pure draft equity standpoint I'd argue that these groups are rather similar. We have a lot more equity at Tackle and Center, they have a lot more at Guard. Maybe Tony Sparano's untimely death had something to do with the current situation? As I've said before, not drafting OL early IS a strategy. Maybe guys don't like it. Fine. But other teams are finding success doing it, ergo the above. So is Rick the problem or is it Clancy Barone?
It's likely a combination of factors. I don't know enough about the particulars of NE's OL strategy to say much about it but based on the way that team has been run over the years, I'm betting they do a good job of scouting and acquiring players who will be a good fit for what they do and because they've been able to firmly establish an approach there, they likely know just what they want.

It seems to me the Vikings have lacked a clear vision of just what they want to do on offense for years and that hurts them up and down the offense. In other words, it's not just a question of when or how talent is acquired. Does it fit? Is the team being constructed logically?

Over the years, Spielman has often been defended because he's found talented players but while that's true, finding talent is only part of a GM's job. Bringing talent, coaching and scheme together in a unified, sensible way is far more difficult.

As often as not, I get the feeling Rick is throwing talent at offensive problems like he's desperately trying to plug new leaks in a pipe. It's never seemed to me like there's any real vision for the offense.
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