Defilippo

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Cliff
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Re: Defilippo

Post by Cliff » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:37 am

Zimmer's method for running the offense seems to basically be "hire an offensive coordinator and let him do what he does". I think that's why Norv Turner was the first guy he brought on. He was an experienced coach who could come in and take over. Same thing with Shurmer. 20 Years in the NFL as a coach. Some of those years as a head coach.

Now Zimmer picked a guy who is still fairly green as an OC and to the NFL in general. He's only been coaching in the NFL for 6 years. OC for only 1 before this season. This is a guy who needs some guidance but I don't think Zimmer is equipped for that.

Instead, Zimmer is spending his time with the defense and special teams (according to him) and so he doesn't have the time to work with the offense as much. Which opens up more concerns. We've had the same defensive coordinator for 4 years and he can't handle working with the defense while you give more focus to the offense?

While Zimmer is coach I think we need an OC with more experience. Someone capable of actually running the offense by themselves without much direction. Of course, that kind of coach will be gone after one successful year ...
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Re: Defilippo

Post by PurpleMustReign » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:39 am

Cliff wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:37 am
Zimmer's method for running the offense seems to basically be "hire an offensive coordinator and let him do what he does". I think that's why Norv Turner was the first guy he brought on. He was an experienced coach who could come in and take over. Same thing with Shurmer. 20 Years in the NFL as a coach. Some of those years as a head coach.

Now Zimmer picked a guy who is still fairly green as an OC and to the NFL in general. He's only been coaching in the NFL for 6 years. OC for only 1 before this season. This is a guy who needs some guidance but I don't think Zimmer is equipped for that.

Instead, Zimmer is spending his time with the defense and special teams (according to him) and so he doesn't have the time to work with the offense as much. Which opens up more concerns. We've had the same defensive coordinator for 4 years and he can't handle working with the defense while you give more focus to the offense?

While Zimmer is coach I think we need an OC with more experience. Someone capable of actually running the offense by themselves without much direction. Of course, that kind of coach will be gone after one successful year ...
Remember when Mike Tice was our coach? He is clearly an offensive guy, yet when his defense struggled, he trusted his offensive coaches and he went to work with the ddfebse. And they improved. In fact, they beat Green Bay in the playoffs thst season. If Zimmer doesn't trust his coaches, why the hell are they on the staff? It seems nowadays the head coaches are too into being involved with play calling, etc than to work with the team. I remember when no head coaches had headphones on and they watched the game and talked to who they needed to if they needed to. Now every head coach has a play card and they focus on one side of the game and the other side struggles.
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Re: Defilippo

Post by MrPurplenGold » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:58 am

dead_poet wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:00 am
Vikings RBs have been met in the backfield on a ridiculous 43.6% of rushing attempts. I don't have the pressure rates, but we have to be in the bottom 5. We had the highest pressure rate of all week 11 teams. This has been a reoccurring theme.

I don't care who you are, that's a major liability for an offense. We're not going anywhere substantial unless or until this is corrected.
Cook ran 9 times for 84 yards. So it didn't seem to be a problem against the Patriots. When Flip was OC in Cleveland, he had 10 games under 100 yards rushing and 3 under 50. He got credit for what happened in philly, but he didn't call the plays. The only thing I dont like from Zimmer is all the public criticism. When the team fails, he fails and he can't just hire an OC and try to pass the buck though i read he might give up calling the defensive plays to get more involved in the offense

Defilippo and Cousins
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Re: Defilippo

Post by mansquatch » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:54 pm

I think it is important to consider that there isn't really a right or wrong way to do this. There has yet to be a HC in the league who can call everything, let alone game plan and manage everything.

Also, Zimmer has given JDF guidance. He has told him certain concept to use, some of which are quite basic, however they simply work. For whatever the reason, the guidance hasn't thoroughly translated to improvement. JDF has been inconsistent and has failed to really grasp how to game plan with what he has. At least so far. He has also, it seems, failed to incorporate what his boss wants in the offense, at least to a degree. (not enough rushing)

I'm not sure what the answer is. It is obvious that JDF seemed to have some kind of tunnel vision as a coach on his WR against NE and failed to grasp the idea of "keep doing what is working." Why this is the case, I do not understand? Cook is a very potent offensive weapon. Why aren't we utilizing him more? Is this a comfort thing? Familiarity? Confidence? Something else? Does JDF just want to pass, pass, pass?

I think the one thing that can be said for certain is he needs to grow into his role. The next question is can he do it fast enough to help the Vikings win?

I'm not sure what the answer is? I get that an obvious choice from our perspective as fans is to give more authority to Edwards and have Zimmer dedicate more of his time to JDF. But is that the best choice? Zimmer has a massive amount of experience on defense. What cost does taking him out of that more cost the team?

I think the bottom line to this isn't so much what a solution might look like so much as the glaring fact that the current incarnation just isn't working as well as it needs to. Can it be fixed and more importantly can they fix it before they lose their playoff hopes?

One big knock: This should have been dealt with sooner. The bye week was when they should have worked the bugs out.
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Re: Defilippo

Post by Cliff » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:46 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:54 pm
Also, Zimmer has given JDF guidance. He has told him certain concept to use, some of which are quite basic, however they simply work. For whatever the reason, the guidance hasn't thoroughly translated to improvement. JDF has been inconsistent and has failed to really grasp how to game plan with what he has. At least so far. He has also, it seems, failed to incorporate what his boss wants in the offense, at least to a degree. (not enough rushing)
I meant more as a mentor would guide someone. Teaching things, imparting wisdom, etc. It *seems* like Zimmer has basically said "we need to run more and not try to trick the team so much. Just play football". That's not really guidance the way I meant.

Perhaps his system of offense just isn't compatible with this team. It kind of sounds like what happened when Turner was here;
He told the Minneapolis Star-Tribune: "... it just got to the point where I didn't think it was going to work with me. So I removed myself."

Turner and head coach Mike Zimmer disagreed on the best way to run the offense, according to Albert Breer of The MMQB. It wasn't a huge rift, but they couldn't come to terms on the margins of it, the details of the offensive system that needed to be changed in order to better protect the quarterback, get the running game going again, and score more than 20 points a game.

"We had a lot of challenges," Turner told Breer. "And for a period of time, we were able to hide some problems we had, but it catches up to you. And then we just had a difference of opinion—or what I felt was a difference of opinion—on what we needed to do to give our guys the best chance to fix it."
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Re: Defilippo

Post by VikingLord » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:03 pm

Cliff wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:46 pm
Turner and head coach Mike Zimmer disagreed on the best way to run the offense, according to Albert Breer of The MMQB. It wasn't a huge rift, but they couldn't come to terms on the margins of it, the details of the offensive system that needed to be changed in order to better protect the quarterback, get the running game going again, and score more than 20 points a game.
"We had a lot of challenges," Turner told Breer. "And for a period of time, we were able to hide some problems we had, but it catches up to you. And then we just had a difference of opinion—or what I felt was a difference of opinion—on what we needed to do to give our guys the best chance to fix it."
Link
When I read something like this I think of Brad Childress. I think the Vikings were so successful in 2009 because Favre really ran the offense. That offense did things that just didn't seem like things Childress had done or would do, but Favre had so much star power and leeway because of how good he was that he just more or less called it the way he wanted, and the Vikings had enough success that Childress just came along for the ride more or less, as did the OC that year (I forget who it was to be honest).

Can coaches have a difference of opinion on how things should be run? Absolutely. Does that normally boil over into one of the coaches leaving mid-season? Not usually.

When I read about a dynamic like that and what the leaving coach had to say about it, I once again return to the rigidity concept where there is a relatively fixed system, fixed implementation of that system, and when it doesn't work, especially consistently, there is a tendency of the creator of the system to blame the execution or bad breaks as the cause of the failure rather than the system itself. Zimmer, like Childress, had some success, or at least was part of a successful team at the pro level, prior to being elevated to a head coaching job. Once there, Zimmer, like Childress, has somewhat under-performed with the talent he's been given. Last year was a truly unusual result for a team down to it's 3rd-string QB. In some ways, though, Case Keenum was kind of like Favre. Not in the sense of his experience or physical prowess, but in the sense that he didn't have much to lose and therefore played loose and took chances that a guy like Cousins probably isn't going to take.

I really hope I am wrong about this and Zimmer's team shows up with some twists against the Seahawks. Because on offense, the Hawks are going to try to ram that ball down the defense's throat, and then Wilson is going to try to flick those daggers for big plays and scores. The defense should show up with a few ready answers to those things. It should not take a full half before the defense finally figures it out and slows it down. On defense, the Hawks will come after Cousins, so can the Vikings find a way to counter that more effectively? Some quick-hitters on slants? Shuffle passes? Delayed draws to Cook? Maybe just commit to the run even if it doesn't work right away?

A rigid approach demands better play from the players even if the opponent is ready with a gameplan to make that harder. The result of that will be more of the same, and will tell a lot about Zimmer at this point as well.
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Re: Defilippo

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:19 pm

I'm not a big Flip fan, yet I find it odd some of the people calling for his head havent even given him a full year to prove himself. And a lot of them put almost no blame on Cousins, when even Cousins is putting a lot of the blame on himself, and deserving so. I know this doesnt mean anything, what ifs and all, but I wonder where the Vikings would be if we had stuck with Case this year, instead of betting on the marbles on a QB that has only put 9 wins as his best in a season. I really am starting to get worried our GM is to blame for a lot of our troubles.
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Re: Defilippo

Post by PurpleMustReign » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:30 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:19 pm
I'm not a big Flip fan, yet I find it odd some of the people calling for his head havent even given him a full year to prove himself. And a lot of them put almost no blame on Cousins, when even Cousins is putting a lot of the blame on himself, and deserving so. I know this doesnt mean anything, what ifs and all, but I wonder where the Vikings would be if we had stuck with Case this year, instead of betting on the marbles on a QB that has only put 9 wins as his best in a season. I really am starting to get worried our GM is to blame for a lot of our troubles.
OH now you've done it.
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Re: Defilippo

Post by PacificNorseWest » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:01 am

PurpleKoolaid wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:19 pm
yet I find it odd some of the people calling for his head havent even given him a full year to prove himself.
It's really an irrational way of thinking. It's what most fans do.

I think we'll find out a lot in the next 4 weeks. There's still time to find balance, become more efficient and productive and right the ship.
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