Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

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Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:25 am

I'm super frustrated that the FO has not made a change to the oline and it is week 6. Something needs to be done with Remmers. I don't think it is his fault as he has been thrown to a position he is not strong enough to man. He's being asked to block bigger guys than he normally would handled and is getting chewed up in the process. He is a perfectly fine RT and he proved that last season. I'm looking for any changes at this point because what we clearly don't have our best 5 guys playing.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by PacificNorseWest » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:15 pm

What do you propose they do?
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by fiestavike » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:15 pm

I agree. I don't understand the evaluation of the OL. Remmers is clearly a better RT than Hill. Perhaps the inury to Elflein early could explain going with that lineup, except that O'Neill is also better than Hill, and probably better than Remmers at RT.

As to the interior, its more complicated for sure due to Easton and Elflein being out for much of the season. Still, even given those injuries, I'm not sure Compton is better than Isadora. I'm not sure Remmers is a better RG than Isadora. I'm not convinced Cornelius Edison could be competent enough at C to allow upgrades at both G positions in the form of Elflein and Jones. It just seems that they consistently overvalue veteran players on the OL and fail to put together a group with a chance to perform at even an average level.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by fiestavike » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:34 pm

Also, David Morgan needs to replace Rudolph until the Vikings get into the red zone. He is SOOO much better in run blocking and YAC and route runnings, its not even close. Rudolph is good with his catch radius in the endzone, but if I had to choose to keep either Rudolph of Morgan on the exact same contract, Its not a hard choice. Morgan is the better option. Again, the vet gets the snaps despite being an inferior player.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:06 pm

PacificNorseWest wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:15 pm
What do you propose they do?
Dream scenerio?
1. Move Remmers back to RT
2. Move Reiff to RG
3. Move Oniel to LT.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by PacificNorseWest » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:27 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:06 pm
Dream scenerio?
1. Move Remmers back to RT
2. Move Reiff to RG
3. Move Oniel to LT.
Yeah. Easier said than done though. I don't think a move like that for O'neil especially is something that can be done midseason with great success. It's one of those things that need to start in the offseason with minicamps and everything else.

I mean, you can always just throw him out there, but without seeing these guys everyday, it's hard to envision how tall of a task this would be. With vets like Remmers and Reiff, you'd like to think a transition would be more smooth, but even then, there are no guarantees.

The big thing people always mention with an offensive line is continuity and really, I think that began once they got Elflein back. I think (moreso hope) that as the season progresses, this unit gels together more and more and we start seeing some success up front.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by fiestavike » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:01 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:06 pm
Dream scenerio?
1. Move Remmers back to RT
2. Move Reiff to RG
3. Move Oniel to LT.
Moving Reiff to G might be a radical move, but I've been curious whether, unlike Remmers, he might not be a better G than he is a tackle.

Also, Hill is not going to be a Viking next season. I don't understand not getting those snaps to O'Neill who IS actually going to be a Vikings going forward. It makes sense in neither the short or longterm to follow the path the Vikings are following.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by mansquatch » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:25 pm

Seriously... WTF?

Reiff was cut by Detroit after they moved him to RT, which isn't his natural position. Vikings sign him, put him at LT and he has his best season as a pro. Now you want to move him to RT where he has sucked in the past AND replace him with a relatively unproven O'Neil? Umm what?

Remmers to RT. OK. Sure. But now who plays RG? Maybe he is at RG because the RG/RT combo of Remmers/Hill is A LOT better than X/Remmers? Why do we think this is going to be an improvement? Oh wait, the grass is ALWAYS greener... except when it isn't.

Also, if you switch it now you give up all the continuity built between the two 5 games into the season. You can't get that back.

Let's not forget that while we are on this bandwagon we are essentially backhanding Spielman for the all too simple task of not being able to predict that his LG was going ot need season ending surgery in training camp. I mean seriously Ricky, get that crystal ball in the shop and get it fixed, even my 6 year old was able to figure that crap out. He is a billionaire in the stock market also, love the kid.

WE took a bad roll of the dice losing Easton. It sucks. But this solution reminds of the guy who posted around here with the Childress Meme Avatar that said "If you think our problems are bad wait until you see our solutions." Didn't we just hammer the Eagles on the road or something? :beerock:
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by Purple Domination » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:29 pm

I was mad about the lack of front office attention when I thought our second round pick was a multi year project. Now that O’Neil looks like a first year contributor, I am happier with our OL decisions this offseason. As someone stated earlier, we got dealt a bad hand with the Easton injury. Elflein being out all of camp and preseason didn’t help either. I don’t blame these things on the front office. It’s also not the front office’s decision to play Remmers at RG.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:47 pm

PacificNorseWest wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:27 pm
Yeah. Easier said than done though. I don't think a move like that for O'neil especially is something that can be done midseason with great success. It's one of those things that need to start in the offseason with minicamps and everything else.

I mean, you can always just throw him out there, but without seeing these guys everyday, it's hard to envision how tall of a task this would be. With vets like Remmers and Reiff, you'd like to think a transition would be more smooth, but even then, there are no guarantees.

The big thing people always mention with an offensive line is continuity and really, I think that began once they got Elflein back. I think (moreso hope) that as the season progresses, this unit gels together more and more and we start seeing some success up front.
We got Elfin back and gave up 29 pressures, 13 by Remmers.
Also, there is no reason, Oniel couldn't play LT. If he was drafted and didn't get any practice at LT, then that is a failing of the staff. He played last season at LT and would probably be more comfortable there. I don't anticipate it being too bad for him. I would wager that these next too weeks are the perfect chance to get his feet wet. We are playing 2 teams with 1 elite pass rusher, where we can give him help to bring him along and build up his reps (RB, TE chips, etc)
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:49 pm

Purple Domination wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:29 pm
I was mad about the lack of front office attention when I thought our second round pick was a multi year project. Now that O’Neil looks like a first year contributor, I am happier with our OL decisions this offseason. As someone stated earlier, we got dealt a bad hand with the Easton injury. Elflein being out all of camp and preseason didn’t help either. I don’t blame these things on the front office. It’s also not the front office’s decision to play Remmers at RG.
Easton was terrible at LG last season so I still blame them. We still don't have a RG. Even is Easton was healthy and not below average, we would still have Remmers or Compton playing a guard position and being below average.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by Purple Domination » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:56 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:49 pm
Easton was terrible at LG last season so I still blame them.
This take has validity, but there are some intangibles to Easton’s benefit. He seemed to be the glue that held the line together last season. The line went to hell when he went down and we could sure use him again this year.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:58 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:25 pm
Seriously... WTF?

Reiff was cut by Detroit after they moved him to RT, which isn't his natural position. Vikings sign him, put him at LT and he has his best season as a pro. Now you want to move him to RT where he has sucked in the past AND replace him with a relatively unproven O'Neil? Umm what?

Remmers to RT. OK. Sure. But now who plays RG? Maybe he is at RG because the RG/RT combo of Remmers/Hill is A LOT better than X/Remmers? Why do we think this is going to be an improvement? Oh wait, the grass is ALWAYS greener... except when it isn't.

Also, if you switch it now you give up all the continuity built between the two 5 games into the season. You can't get that back.

Let's not forget that while we are on this bandwagon we are essentially backhanding Spielman for the all too simple task of not being able to predict that his LG was going ot need season ending surgery in training camp. I mean seriously Ricky, get that crystal ball in the shop and get it fixed, even my 6 year old was able to figure that crap out. He is a billionaire in the stock market also, love the kid.

WE took a bad roll of the dice losing Easton. It sucks. But this solution reminds of the guy who posted around here with the Childress Meme Avatar that said "If you think our problems are bad wait until you see our solutions." Didn't we just hammer the Eagles on the road or something? :beerock:
1. Reiff wasn't cut by Det.
2. Reiff gave up 13 pressures vs. the Bills and a couple of sack fumbles on the season.

3. I can tell you the Remmers Hill combo is terrible. They can't pass block and they can't run block. I am willing to wager that Remmers and who every at RG is an upgrade. Remmers is poor at run blocking and has been getting killed against the pass. At RT he was above Average at both run blocking and pass bocking. Seems to me even if we get a guy in there that is as bad as he is at pass blocking, they will atleast be an improvement against the run (Isadora, I'm looking at you)

4. The only continuity we have is the continuity between us and poor run blocking. Our QB was pressured on 43% of his drop backs last game. What has continuity done to help?

5. I hate when 1 win means everything is fixed. Going 13-3 didn't fix our oline. Winning doesn't mean you don't have issues that can hurt you in the long run. The facts remain plain, the current iteration of the Oline isn't working in the run game and is a huge risk in the passing game. Right now we have 2 average or better Olinemen in Reiff and Eflin. I wager it is better to get a 3rd, Remmers, at his natural position. 3 > 2.

6. Food for thought. We have not had a RB gain more than 50 yards in a game. Tell me how great the oline is. We were leading in the game last week for most of it. Still below 50.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by mansquatch » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:42 am

You are right, Reiff was allowed to enter Free Agency by the Lions, in which they didn't actively pursue him. One might conclude that this is a distinction without a difference.

You are also right the Reiff hasn't been as solid this year as he was last season. So why will O'Neil be better?

Again you tell me how bad Hill/Remmers is. I never said they were great. What I asked was how do we know that the other available combinations are in reality better? Or to be more blunt: Why would you conclude there is a better combination available? You haven't seen the other unknown alleged combination play, so why do you think it is better?

On the continuity thing. We had continuity in 2017, it worked. We had NONE in 2016. Remember how that went?

When did I say everything was fixed?

Your argument has no answer to the challenge of the fact that we were behind in three of the first four games and in week 5 we played the #1 rushing defense. Are the rushing stats bad? YES! Can you say that is SOLELY due to the OL? I would argue that you can't. I would also argue that there is nothing persuasive that tells us doing something is BETTER than doing nothing in terms of the OL.

Honestly, I'm so TIRED of people going off on the OL and this team. It has been a non-stop refrain for a decade. I get they haven't been elite. However, here is a fun stat: Playoff Games won by Dallas in the past 3 years, the team regarded to have the best OL in the NFL: ZERO!
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:31 am

mansquatch wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:42 am
You are right, Reiff was allowed to enter Free Agency by the Lions, in which they didn't actively pursue him. One might conclude that this is a distinction without a difference.

You are also right the Reiff hasn't been as solid this year as he was last season. So why will O'Neil be better?

Again you tell me how bad Hill/Remmers is. I never said they were great. What I asked was how do we know that the other available combinations are in reality better? Or to be more blunt: Why would you conclude there is a better combination available? You haven't seen the other unknown alleged combination play, so why do you think it is better?

On the continuity thing. We had continuity in 2017, it worked. We had NONE in 2016. Remember how that went?

When did I say everything was fixed?

Your argument has no answer to the challenge of the fact that we were behind in three of the first four games and in week 5 we played the #1 rushing defense. Are the rushing stats bad? YES! Can you say that is SOLELY due to the OL? I would argue that you can't. I would also argue that there is nothing persuasive that tells us doing something is BETTER than doing nothing in terms of the OL.

Honestly, I'm so TIRED of people going off on the OL and this team. It has been a non-stop refrain for a decade. I get they haven't been elite. However, here is a fun stat: Playoff Games won by Dallas in the past 3 years, the team regarded to have the best OL in the NFL: ZERO!
I usually agree with you mansquatch. YikesVikes and I have our battles but I have to side with most of his take here when it comes to the OL. You do make other great points about the whole Dallas thing. We dont need some amazing OL just to win a SB. They just need to do their job. Be average as a group to be honest

Yes Reiff was able to test free agency because the Lions had their eye on Wagner. Who in the end didnt turn out as well as they expected either. Reiff wasnt just inconsistent at RT in Detroit. He was just as inconsistent at LT. Saying Reiff "hasnt been as solid as last year" isnt even close. He's been miles behind where he was last year. And the problem is, he's battling a foot issue to go along with it. We currently dont have a franchise LT on this team right now. Reiff was an average one but not a long term Joe Thomas type fix.

I have said for the last 3 weeks now that I think our OL should consist of:

LT- O'Neill
LG- Jones
C- Elflein
RG- Remmers/Isidora
RT- Reiff

And here is why. Athleticism in an offensive tackle (right or left) trumps strength any day of the week IMO. O'Neill has played in 3 games now. And played a lot in those 3 games. Nobody on here yet, including myself, could recall one time in any of those 3 games where O'Neill has given up a single pressure. He played LT in college a few times but mostly RT. I get that. But here is why I am more comfortable with him at LT rather than Reiff. Riley Reiff is getting beat for one reason right now (especially vs Buf). Lack of athleticism and foot quickness. All Jerry Hughes was doing was taking a wide rush on him and Reiff couldnt kick slide out there quick enough to stop him. He was easily figured out and abused all game for it. These blindside outside rushers are all about speed for most teams. Not power. You see way more speed and quickness than you do bull rush.

Insert O'Neill. He has the athleticism and quickness to get out to speed rushers where Reiff does not. We could say, "then just stick him at RT for Hill". No because Hill is much much worse. The number one thing we need to protect is Kirk's blindside. Second comes his right side. At least with Reiff at RT, Kirk can see a speed rusher coming. Taylor Decker was suppose to be a plug and play RT for Detroit and took Reiffs LT spot almost immediately. There is no reason O'Neill couldnt do the same given how he has played. Granted he isnt as highly touted as Decker was coming out but he's showed very very well in 3 games.

Many of the great, young LT's in the NFL right now weren't bench press beasts at the combine. Many of them were just excellent athletes.

-Taylor Lewan put up 29 reps on the bench
-Taylor Decker put up 20
-Jake Matthews put up 24
.....O'Neill put up 22.

-Lewan ran a 4.87 40 yd dash
-Decker was a 5.23
-Matthews was a 5.07
.....O'Neill was a 4.82 (better than any of the 3)

-Lewan ran a 4.49 20 yd shuttle
-Decker was a 4.76
-Matthews was a 4.47
....O'Neill was a 4.50

-Lewan had a 7.39 3 cone time
-Decker was a 7.70
-Matthews was a 7.34 (which was a top time that year)
.....O'Neill was a 7.14 (shattered all 3 of them)

Granted these arent the end-all-be-all stats but those were the top 3 young LTs in the NFL right now. And O'Neill either shattered them in these categories or ran right with them. I used the top 4 categories you would want to see for an offensive lineman at the combine.

With how O'Neill has played so far and looking in depth at how good of an athlete this kid actually is, he has the athleticism and quickness to stay toe to toe with just about any speed rusher out there. Now I'm sure technique and strength need work but I still take the athleticism any day over that. Because the plus side is, he's NOT getting beat clean off the snap like Reiff and Hill have. And that alone saves your QB more time than you think.

I think putting O'Neill at LT is a no-brainer. And moving Reiff to RT because granted, he hasnt been great but he's much better than Hill. As for our guards, I say switch them up too. Jones played quite a bit of guard before. Put him in for Compton and let Remmers and Isidora battle it out. Elflein is obviously set.

But again, my number 1 priority right now is the blind side. And I put O'Neill there any day of the week right now.
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