Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes
Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:46 pm
You can say that all you want, but Peters is a bonafide playmaker in the NFL. He wasn't even supposed to play yesterday due to injury, but he toughed it out anyway.
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I think you are letting your anger blind you a bit. The Rams are very capable riding Gurley like a power back.J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:15 pm
5. The Rams will win a bunch of regular-season games because they play in an awful division. But they'll get their butts handed to them in the playoffs. Their defense is crap, and that offense will disintegrate if they get into any weather. They'd better pray they get home field advantage throughout the playoffs.
6. If you can't tell, I'm more pissed today than I was watching the game last night. I can't stand Sean McVay, and I can't stand the Rams. The way Cousins, Diggs and Thielen were playing, we should have destroyed them. Instead, all we're hearing about is how amazing the Rams are. They opened against the Raiders and Cardinals, and now that they've played us, they get the Seahawks, Broncos and 49ers. This is a first-place schedule? Sorry. I'm ticked. That game was winnable last night, and our defense didn't show up. Ugh!
How is sam shields a better CB at this stage than Waynes. That argument doesn’t even make sense. No less you’re bringing up INTs? Well I would hope that a CB that started for years and is 30 has more INTs than a 26 year old CB. And no Sam Shields played no better than any other CB in that game. On both teams! Nobody played well. So idk why you’re comparing themallday1991 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:22 pm 3 first round cbs and one 2 rounder says it all, that should be an elite core, and here we are comparing a high first round pick in his prime to a 30 year old cb. Someone brought up the fact he played better and he did, and yes sam shields is a better player. A undrafted f/a with 19 int compared to a high first round pick with 5. Sure Sam shields isnt the answer but your telling me thats the best we can do with our first round pick? My problem is everyone saying we have depth at cb. Depth of pure garbage and a waste of high picks
Your right it is like comparing Keenum to Cousins. You said he hasnt been on a team in 2 years yet has 14 more interceptions? Thats a huge difference considering there is only a 4 year difference. Ill bet shields end with more ints than waynes by the time there careers are over. Stats from waynes season last year were he was number one in two categories means little to nothing cause as we've seen the defence was statically padded that year, i heard to many times last year from friends that our 3 down rate was so high mainly due to unforced errors by the opposing teams offence, seems to be right. Either way i down know or really care whos better between sheilds and waynes i just dont want to hear ppl saying we have depth at cb, because we dont, we have a group of high draft picks who play average to bad.Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:59 pm How is sam shields a better CB at this stage than Waynes. That argument doesn’t even make sense. No less you’re bringing up INTs? Well I would hope that a CB that started for years and is 30 has more INTs than a 26 year old CB. And no Sam Shields played no better than any other CB in that game. On both teams! Nobody played well. So idk why you’re comparing them
Last year, Waynes allowed a 21.8 Passer rating when thrown to in man coverage. That was #1 in the nfl in man coverage. He also was the #1 CB in the nfl when it came to run stops. And not just by a little bit. He had 11 stops on the year. Closest to him was 6.
He’s not comparable to shields. One bit. Shields hasn’t been on a team in practically two years. Get over Waynes rookie season. It’s done and over with. He’s much much better after he was given time. Those stats aren’t made up and they don’t lie. Number 1 in the nfl in two major categories. And has been fine all year outside of the rams.
Comparing Shields to Waynes is like comparing Keenum to Cousins. There is no comparison, there is no argument, the argument is dead
Can you provide the link to the stat about Waynes being #1 in man coverage? I call ####.Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:59 pm How is sam shields a better CB at this stage than Waynes. That argument doesn’t even make sense. No less you’re bringing up INTs? Well I would hope that a CB that started for years and is 30 has more INTs than a 26 year old CB. And no Sam Shields played no better than any other CB in that game. On both teams! Nobody played well. So idk why you’re comparing them
Last year, Waynes allowed a 21.8 Passer rating when thrown to in man coverage. That was #1 in the nfl in man coverage. He also was the #1 CB in the nfl when it came to run stops. And not just by a little bit. He had 11 stops on the year. Closest to him was 6.
He’s not comparable to shields. One bit. Shields hasn’t been on a team in practically two years. Get over Waynes rookie season. It’s done and over with. He’s much much better after he was given time. Those stats aren’t made up and they don’t lie. Number 1 in the nfl in two major categories. And has been fine all year outside of the rams.
Comparing Shields to Waynes is like comparing Keenum to Cousins. There is no comparison, there is no argument, the argument is dead
Again agree to disagree. You’re basing your argument off interceptions. Marcus peters is an interception monster but gets burnt more than 80% of the CBs in this league. Yeah it’s great getting interceptions but you’re also not helping the team by getting burnt. I remember specifically when he was embarrassed, badly, by Terrelle Pryor last year. The same terrelle Pryor that was a massive flop in Washington.allday1991 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:51 pm Your right it is like comparing Keenum to Cousins. You said he hasnt been on a team in 2 years yet has 14 more interceptions? Thats a huge difference considering there is only a 4 year difference. Ill bet shields end with more ints than waynes by the time there careers are over. Stats from waynes season last year were he was number one in two categories means little to nothing cause as we've seen the defence was statically padded that year, i heard to many times last year from friends that our 3 down rate was so high mainly due to unforced errors by the opposing teams offence, seems to be right. Either way i down know or really care whos better between sheilds and waynes i just dont want to hear ppl saying we have depth at cb, because we dont, we have a group of high draft picks who play average to bad.
Thank you for putting some numbers to what I've been saying about Marcus Peters. Most replies to my comments that Peters is overrated are of the "you're nuts, he's a shutdown corner" variety.Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:01 pm Again agree to disagree. You’re basing your argument off interceptions. Marcus peters is an interception monster but gets burnt more than 80% of the CBs in this league. Yeah it’s great getting interceptions but you’re also not helping the team by getting burnt. I remember specifically when he was embarrassed, badly, by Terrelle Pryor last year. The same terrelle Pryor that was a massive flop in Washington.
Just some quick stats for all the fans out there that think peters is a legit cb, he never shadowed #1 WRs last year for KC lining up on the left side 94% of the time. And the big ones, from 2015-2017, he has given up 2,077 yards. Nearly 300 more than any other starting CB. He’s given up the 2nd most pass interference yards with 166. He has given up 15 touchdowns, next closest being 11. But has 19 interceptions which ranks first in that time span.
Those stats right there show that interceptions aren’t everything. Especially for a CB like sam shields. Marcus peters isn’t nearly as good as people think. And to be honest, Waynes’ numbers aren’t ANYWHERE near peters in those categories. Especially now. And Waynes is a top 3 CB in the league when it comes to playing the run.
Waynes is much better than many think. His stats I provide alone trump many arguments you try to have regarding him. Rhodes was shutting down everyone that got near him last year (Antonio, Julio, Evans, etc) and had 2 ints on the year. Rhodes has 10 total in his career. And he’s 28. Which means chances are, he won’t catch shields in INTs by the time he’s 30. Does that means shields is better than Rhodes too?
Sorry dude but your argument is as weak as weak gets. And every stat I’ve provided proves that to be a fact. Many fans won’t let Waynes early career go. But he’s is much much better than what you’re leading on.
As for the depth, mike Hughes is in the 4th game of his rookie year. I’ll admit Alexander has been average at best but you gotta give Hughes a chance. When Waynes isn’t on the field, you can tell right now. Hughes will get there with time but Waynes is a very solid #2 CB. Guys are gonna get beat. Not everyone is a shut down CB. It’s gonna happen with Rhodes, Waynes, Hughes, etc. but bottom line is, Waynes is a valuable part of this team and will continue to be. And no, sam shields is not comparable to him. Especially when you’re basing it off of two things: 1) the amount of interceptions shields has in his career and 2) comparing Waynes to CBs from the Vikings and rams in a game where they both gave up a combined 848 passing yards. Yes....848 total passing yards.
You don’t have much to stand on when you’re using those two things to try and prove sam shields is better than Trae Waynes. It’s not even worth discussing even though I just wasted my time looking up those numbers
I agree with most of that, and agree about peters play style being a negative for team, and as i said before i dont really know who is better between waynes and really think a person who has watched there whole career could make an arguement for either side. I disagree with alexander being average, hes been plain bad, and like you said hughes isnt a guy we can rely on yet so again my main point is for the amount of high picks i dont see the depth or return value of what we've invested in it. With 3 1st and 1 2nd i expect that position to be elite, and its average to good at bestPondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:01 pm Again agree to disagree. You’re basing your argument off interceptions. Marcus peters is an interception monster but gets burnt more than 80% of the CBs in this league. Yeah it’s great getting interceptions but you’re also not helping the team by getting burnt. I remember specifically when he was embarrassed, badly, by Terrelle Pryor last year. The same terrelle Pryor that was a massive flop in Washington.
Just some quick stats for all the fans out there that think peters is a legit cb, he never shadowed #1 WRs last year for KC lining up on the left side 94% of the time. And the big ones, from 2015-2017, he has given up 2,077 yards. Nearly 300 more than any other starting CB. He’s given up the 2nd most pass interference yards with 166. He has given up 15 touchdowns, next closest being 11. But has 19 interceptions which ranks first in that time span.
Those stats right there show that interceptions aren’t everything. Especially for a CB like sam shields. Marcus peters isn’t nearly as good as people think. And to be honest, Waynes’ numbers aren’t ANYWHERE near peters in those categories. Especially now. And Waynes is a top 3 CB in the league when it comes to playing the run.
Waynes is much better than many think. His stats I provide alone trump many arguments you try to have regarding him. Rhodes was shutting down everyone that got near him last year (Antonio, Julio, Evans, etc) and had 2 ints on the year. Rhodes has 10 total in his career. And he’s 28. Which means chances are, he won’t catch shields in INTs by the time he’s 30. Does that means shields is better than Rhodes too?
Sorry dude but your argument is as weak as weak gets. And every stat I’ve provided proves that to be a fact. Many fans won’t let Waynes early career go. But he’s is much much better than what you’re leading on.
As for the depth, mike Hughes is in the 4th game of his rookie year. I’ll admit Alexander has been average at best but you gotta give Hughes a chance. When Waynes isn’t on the field, you can tell right now. Hughes will get there with time but Waynes is a very solid #2 CB. Guys are gonna get beat. Not everyone is a shut down CB. It’s gonna happen with Rhodes, Waynes, Hughes, etc. but bottom line is, Waynes is a valuable part of this team and will continue to be. And no, sam shields is not comparable to him. Especially when you’re basing it off of two things: 1) the amount of interceptions shields has in his career and 2) comparing Waynes to CBs from the Vikings and rams in a game where they both gave up a combined 848 passing yards. Yes....848 total passing yards.
You don’t have much to stand on when you’re using those two things to try and prove sam shields is better than Trae Waynes. It’s not even worth discussing even though I just wasted my time looking up those numbers
He doesn't have quickness. He lacks quickness. He has deep speed but his ability to change directions and go is below average.
Nobody is wearing purple sunglasses here. Look at the numbers I posted. He's MORE than getting beat. He's not just a typical corner that gets beat here and there. It's constant. He's given up over 2,000 yards since his rookie year. 300 more than any other CB in that span!!! Also has given up 15 TDs which is more than anyone in that span. You can have all the INTs in the world but if you are also giving up that many yards and TDs, you arent helping your team nearly as much as what your numbers show. He is also a problem on and off the field. And I can guarantee thats a big reason why Spielman and Zim passed on him. Nobody is saying Spielman can do no wrong. I still take Waynes right now over Peters. I wouldnt say that in his rookie year but right NOW, I take Waynes.YikesVikes wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:33 pm I'm not the biggest Petters fans but we are wearing purple sunglasses if we think Waynes is better than Peters. Anyone trying to convince you or themselves that Waynes is better is doing so because the Vikings selected the wrong CB on draft day and Speilman and company can do no wrong.
1. Peters in KC didn't have the defensive team around him that Waynes has. Vikings has better pass rushers, opposite CBs and the ability to stop the run with their DL. Waynes just needs to be average to appear above average.
2. Peters is a playmaker. Not only does he take the ball away, but he also has the ability to score with it. He has 3 Ints returned for TDs in his career and 5 Force Fumbles. Waynes has 0 FF, 0 Recvories.
3. Peters had more Passes Defensed in his rookie year than Waynes has in his entire career. PD is the true ranking of how good a CB is. CBs get beat all the time. PPF and other sites guess as to who is responsible based on what they think the scheme is but they do not truly know about checks at the line and hand signals that switch coverages. Pass Defenses shows us how profient a CB is in coverage, their ability at reading routes and breaking on the ball, and their propensity at disrupting the offense. Ints are nice but PDs show where the talent is. Waynes has 28. Peters has 56.
4. Waynes has been privy to playings under a great defensive coach and supposedly a great DB mentor. Peters played for Reid most of his career.
5. Peters was traded for a 2nd rounder. What do you think Waynes would fetch on the open market right now? I would like to know your estimate. I would say a 5th at best.
We really need to stop trying to project guys into roles they are not ready for. Our staff would take Peters at Waynes salary twice on Sundays. He's a game-changer at the position and with our (once) great defense and coaching from Zimm, he could be even better than before. Waynes is solid at best. We're talking Lambos vs. Camarys here.
I'm not saying you aren't raising clear issues in Peters game. You are. He isn't a willing tackler. He is good at it but I have seen some horrible attempts by him to tackle. However, he is a better cover guy than Waynes. He attacks the ball better, he breaks up more passes and takes the ball away more. You argument about him not shadowing is a poor one. That's not indicative of a shutdown corner. Not every scheme allows for that. Richard Sherman was a shutdown corner but didn't travel. There are plenty of reasons why a CB might not travel that has nothing to do with ability.
I understand where you're coming from but as good as the numbers show the coverage is, behind closed doors, it's very, very average. All the positives in coverage that he has, is getting cancelled out by the amount of negatives in coverage that he has.YikesVikes wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:07 pm I'm not saying you aren't raising clear issues in Peters game. You are. He isn't a willing tackler. He is good at it but I have seen some horrible attempts by him to tackle. However, he is a better cover guy than Waynes. He attacks the ball better, he breaks up more passes and takes the ball away more. You argument about him not shadowing is a poor one. That's not indicative of a shutdown corner. Not every scheme allows for that. Richard Sherman was a shutdown corner but didn't travel. There are plenty of reasons why a CB might not travel that has nothing to do with ability.
1. DC doesn't like to tip hand in coverage.
2. DC doesn't want OCs getting an advantage by knowing that his best CB will always move when the OC wants to put him.
3. The other CB might be serviceable on their side but awful on the next side. Moving your RCB creates a bigger liability with the LCB
4. Moving your CB requires the rest of your defense to know what they are doing regardless of where the defense puts puts your CB (i.e. moving him to the slot, means that a Safety might now have deep third responsibility instead.
Also you ignored passes defensed. As I said, this is what you should look to to see how good a cb is. He had 29 in his rookie season and Waynes has 28 for a career. It's not close. Bat downs on 2nd and 3rd down impacts a game just as much as a tackle at the LOS. Then you have the FF and FR and the difference between the two continues to grow.