A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

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VikingLord
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A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by VikingLord » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:25 pm

Anyone else scratching their head after watching those 2 TD plays where Waynes was in coverage last night? On the deep TD where Waynes was in solo coverage, it sure looked like he had the position to swat the ball away. I mean, it was a great throw by Goff, but as the ball came down I was sure Waynes could make a play on it. The receiver was definitely not open, and the pass was defensible. But as the ball came down it looked like Waynes simply conceded it, and instead of going for a swat on the ball, he tried to hit the receiver's arms and knock it loose that way. There was a pass later in the game where Cousins threw it towards Diggs and I thought the Rams CB (I think it was Shields), actually had worse positioning than Waynes did on the aforementioned throw, but Shields was able to get his hand up and affect the ball. Maybe I'm being too critical of Waynes, but it looks like Waynes gave up and conceded he couldn't affect the ball, while Shields played it all the way through and never conceded the throw. Waynes gave up a TD as a result, while Shields broke up the play.

And then on the Rams TD where Waynes and another Vikings DB were in coverage where Goff lobbed it into the corner of the endzone, there also I thought Waynes could make a play on the ball and I also thought he just gave up. He was facing Goff, and he saw the receiver get behind him and started to move into the corner of the endzone as the ball was launched. It wasn't an easy play necessarily, but he looked like he was tracking the ball the whole way, right up until near the end when he turned his head and once again went after the receiver's arms to try to knock it out rather than stay focused on the ball in flight and try to affect it there. It was another great throw by Goff, but one I think a pro DB with the positioning Waynes had should have been able to break up if not outright intercept.

So Wayne's positioning on both plays was actually pretty solid. He diagnosed both plays and didn't concede much in terms of separation to the receiver. And yes, Goff made perfect throws on both and the receiver made a great catch on both, but still, I thought Waynes conceded the ball to the receiver on both plays when he could have made a play on it in the air.

Maybe a detail thing, but I expect a pro DB to go after the arms of the receiver when he's been beaten. I don't think Waynes was clearly beaten on either throw.

Waynes play is typical of the Vikings DBs this year. I can't remember the last time I saw a Vikings DB make a play on a ball in the air or try to jump a route. Errant throws have been intercepted, sure, but the DBs just aren't contesting anything, even when they have position. And if they are going to give up 70 yard bombs and leave receivers completely uncovered playing so conservatively, what do they have to lose by tightening things up and being more aggressive?
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by TSonn » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:30 pm

It has always seemed that Zimmer places emphasis on blanket coverage over playing the ball. Rhodes, Waynes, and Newman have all played tight coverage. Our safeties seem to have a bit more freedom to ball hawk.

It was super frustrating watching Waynes allow those 2 TDs when it seemed like he could have dove to deflect the ball on both plays.
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by MikethePurple » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:31 pm

I have noticed for a while that I think Waynes has problems getting his head turned around in coverage. The touchdown pass to the end zone I seemed to remember that he didn't get his head turned around and that was the problem. Hughes is somewhat understandable in that he's a rookie, but this has been a consistent problem with Waynes IMO. He has the speed, good positioning, but never seems to be able to make plays on the ball. It almost seems as (your observations I think are correct) that he waits for the receiver to catch it and then tries to knock it out of his hands. I don't know why but he hasn't been able to put that piece together, if he did, he'd be a great corner.
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:37 pm

MikethePurple wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:31 pm
I have noticed for a while that I think Waynes has problems getting his head turned around in coverage. The touchdown pass to the end zone I seemed to remember that he didn't get his head turned around and that was the problem. Hughes is somewhat understandable in that he's a rookie, but this has been a consistent problem with Waynes IMO. He has the speed, good positioning, but never seems to be able to make plays on the ball. It almost seems as (your observations I think are correct) that he waits for the receiver to catch it and then tries to knock it out of his hands. I don't know why but he hasn't been able to put that piece together, if he did, he'd be a great corner.
Watch the deep TD again. Waynes had excellent coverage was was looking over his left shoulder as the ball was approaching. Hand was right on Cooks chest too. If Rhodes was in that position it would have been no different. It was a better thrown ball and catch than anything. Even the announcers said it was great coverage. The one he needed to turn around on was the one to the corner that Kupp caught.

Everyone still wants to find fault in Waynes but I think he's been a very solid #2 CB over the past two years. Everyone was getting beat last night. Rhodes, Sendejo, Harry, Hughes, etc. Just like Philly last year. It just wasnt anyones night.

I like Hughes and think he has potential but you can definitely tell when Waynes is out of the game. Hughes gives up much more than Waynes does. As he should given he's a rookie and needs that time to develop and understand the scheme
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by MikethePurple » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:40 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:37 pm
Watch the deep TD again. Waynes had excellent coverage was was looking over his left shoulder as the ball was approaching. Hand was right on Cooks chest too. If Rhodes was in that position it would have been no different. It was a better thrown ball and catch than anything. Even the announcers said it was great coverage. The one he needed to turn around on was the one to the corner that Kupp caught.
Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to the Kupp one not the Cooks one.
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by S197 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:44 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:37 pm
Watch the deep TD again. Waynes had excellent coverage was was looking over his left shoulder as the ball was approaching. Hand was right on Cooks chest too. If Rhodes was in that position it would have been no different. It was a better thrown ball and catch than anything. Even the announcers said it was great coverage. The one he needed to turn around on was the one to the corner that Kupp caught.

Everyone still wants to find fault in Waynes but I think he's been a very solid #2 CB over the past two years. Everyone was getting beat last night. Rhodes, Sendejo, Harry, Hughes, etc. Just like Philly last year. It just wasnt anyones night.

I like Hughes and think he has potential but you can definitely tell when Waynes is out of the game. Hughes gives up much more than Waynes does. As he should given he's a rookie and needs that time to develop and understand the scheme
He got beat early on the route but made up ground with his speed, which is pretty typical for his coverage and was the knock on him coming out of college (too reliant on his closing speed). Coverage was pretty good, it was a great throw, but it's the reason why he always seems to be half a step away from making a play. He's always been a corner that has relied too much on his athleticism rather than technique. He's improved over time but you can still see lapses.

The other TD was just a great throw by Goff. If anyone is wondering, it was Hughes who was the other DB in coverage on that play.
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by VikingLord » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:48 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:37 pm
Watch the deep TD again. Waynes had excellent coverage was was looking over his left shoulder as the ball was approaching. Hand was right on Cooks chest too. If Rhodes was in that position it would have been no different. It was a better thrown ball and catch than anything. Even the announcers said it was great coverage. The one he needed to turn around on was the one to the corner that Kupp caught.
I watched it again and I still think he could have gotten a hand on the ball instead of the receiver's arm. The ball was perfect, but Waynes was in position to make a play on it. If he'd been beaten and the receiver had to slow down to wait for the ball, even a little, I could see the swipe at the arm being the best Waynes could do, but on that, I think he could have done a little better. He certainly wasn't beaten on the play.
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by allday1991 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:50 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:25 pm
Anyone else scratching their head after watching those 2 TD plays where Waynes was in coverage last night? On the deep TD where Waynes was in solo coverage, it sure looked like he had the position to swat the ball away. I mean, it was a great throw by Goff, but as the ball came down I was sure Waynes could make a play on it. The receiver was definitely not open, and the pass was defensible. But as the ball came down it looked like Waynes simply conceded it, and instead of going for a swat on the ball, he tried to hit the receiver's arms and knock it loose that way. There was a pass later in the game where Cousins threw it towards Diggs and I thought the Rams CB (I think it was Shields), actually had worse positioning than Waynes did on the aforementioned throw, but Shields was able to get his hand up and affect the ball. Maybe I'm being too critical of Waynes, but it looks like Waynes gave up and conceded he couldn't affect the ball, while Shields played it all the way through and never conceded the throw. Waynes gave up a TD as a result, while Shields broke up the play.

And then on the Rams TD where Waynes and another Vikings DB were in coverage where Goff lobbed it into the corner of the endzone, there also I thought Waynes could make a play on the ball and I also thought he just gave up. He was facing Goff, and he saw the receiver get behind him and started to move into the corner of the endzone as the ball was launched. It wasn't an easy play necessarily, but he looked like he was tracking the ball the whole way, right up until near the end when he turned his head and once again went after the receiver's arms to try to knock it out rather than stay focused on the ball in flight and try to affect it there. It was another great throw by Goff, but one I think a pro DB with the positioning Waynes had should have been able to break up if not outright intercept.

So Wayne's positioning on both plays was actually pretty solid. He diagnosed both plays and didn't concede much in terms of separation to the receiver. And yes, Goff made perfect throws on both and the receiver made a great catch on both, but still, I thought Waynes conceded the ball to the receiver on both plays when he could have made a play on it in the air.

Maybe a detail thing, but I expect a pro DB to go after the arms of the receiver when he's been beaten. I don't think Waynes was clearly beaten on either throw.

Waynes play is typical of the Vikings DBs this year. I can't remember the last time I saw a Vikings DB make a play on a ball in the air or try to jump a route. Errant throws have been intercepted, sure, but the DBs just aren't contesting anything, even when they have position. And if they are going to give up 70 yard bombs and leave receivers completely uncovered playing so conservatively, what do they have to lose by tightening things up and being more aggressive?
The biggest thing i take from this is, shields is a better cb than waynes so with that being said why hasnt zimmer moved on or found a better cb? Wasnt shields a f/a this year we could of got? Instead of asking why this players make repeat mistakes ask why the coaching staff hasnt found better? Rams best cbs were supposed to be injuried and there back up cbs looked better than our starters, #### dumb coaching
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:03 pm

allday1991 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:50 pm
The biggest thing i take from this is, shields is a better cb than waynes so with that being said why hasnt zimmer moved on or found a better cb? Wasnt shields a f/a this year we could of got? Instead of asking why this players make repeat mistakes ask why the coaching staff hasnt found better? Rams best cbs were supposed to be injuried and there back up cbs looked better than our starters, #### dumb coaching
Nobody looked good. At all. I’m not sure how in a game that is 38-31 can you say “their DBs look better than ours” or that shields is better than Waynes. Cousins shredded their DBs. There wasn’t a single DB out there that impressed me on either team. And I feel like everyone is living off Waynes two years in this league and holds it against him. Waynes has made giant gains the past two years. And he’s an excellent tackler. Signing a mid 30 year old CB isn’t an answer. We have 3 first round CBs and a 2 rounder on our roster. We have the depth. Sorry but Sam freaken shields wouldn’t have helped us one bit last night. Not even sure why were discussing this
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by allday1991 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:22 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:03 pm
Nobody looked good. At all. I’m not sure how in a game that is 38-31 can you say “their DBs look better than ours” or that shields is better than Waynes. Cousins shredded their DBs. There wasn’t a single DB out there that impressed me on either team. And I feel like everyone is living off Waynes two years in this league and holds it against him. Waynes has made giant gains the past two years. And he’s an excellent tackler. Signing a mid 30 year old CB isn’t an answer. We have 3 first round CBs and a 2 rounder on our roster. We have the depth. Sorry but Sam freaken shields wouldn’t have helped us one bit last night. Not even sure why were discussing this
3 first round cbs and one 2 rounder says it all, that should be an elite core, and here we are comparing a high first round pick in his prime to a 30 year old cb. Someone brought up the fact he played better and he did, and yes sam shields is a better player. A undrafted f/a with 19 int compared to a high first round pick with 5. Sure Sam shields isnt the answer but your telling me thats the best we can do with our first round pick? My problem is everyone saying we have depth at cb. Depth of pure garbage and a waste of high picks
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by VikingLord » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:09 pm

allday1991 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:50 pm
The biggest thing i take from this is, shields is a better cb than waynes so with that being said why hasnt zimmer moved on or found a better cb? Wasnt shields a f/a this year we could of got? Instead of asking why this players make repeat mistakes ask why the coaching staff hasnt found better? Rams best cbs were supposed to be injuried and there back up cbs looked better than our starters, #### dumb coaching
I don't know if Shields is a better CB than Waynes. I think my point was, Shields made a play on the ball while it was in the air which removed any chance Diggs had of catching it, while Waynes made a play on the arms of the receiver as the ball arrived, which gave the receiver a chance to catch it. Whether Shields regularly does that, I don't know, but he did it last night on what otherwise would have been a big play for the Vikings.

Hard to say if the Vikings should move on from Waynes though. I think the aforementioned play exemplifies the overall defensive approach of the Vikings, which is to get in position to cover, but not be overly aggressive about it. There could be a lot of reasons they adopted that approach. First, it does make the opposing team execute perfectly. Goff has to throw the ball perfectly to a receiver who is in all honesty covered when he lets the pass go. Its risky for the QB to do that. If he underthrows it, there is a good chance it ends up being picked off. If he overthrows it, there is a good chance it ends up incomplete. Second, the Vikings might play more conservatively to avoid penalties, assuming, probably with good reason, that even if the ball is well thrown on plays like that there is a good chance the receiver won't make the play given the tight coverage and the fact that his arm is getting hit as the ball arrives. Even when executed perfectly, it's not an easy play for the receiver to make the catch. If Waynes or other DBs are more aggressive, they could get flagged and the offense could move the chains without even having to technically complete the pass. It's almost a gamble that the margin of error for the offensive players involved outweighs the risk of a ref throwing a flag if he thinks he sees something, and that's not usually an unreasonable gamble in most situations like that. And third, I think the Vikings also have been able to count on an effective pass rush that forces the QB to make quicker decisions and/or throw under duress, which affects accuracy and timing. A QB who is under duress might still chuck the ball at a receiver who is going deep, but there is a much greater chance that the ball will hang in the air or be off target, and the positioning of the DB makes such a throw much riskier for the offense.

I think the Vikings defensive backs overall, with Waynes being a primary example, have suffered as opposing offensive coordinators and players are challenging the assumptions of the scheme listed above. Goff, Allen and Rodgers were all able to execute passing the ball. All were very accurate and showed good anticipation and timing on routes for the most part, and balls that were errant were not thrown in places where a defender would have a chance to intercept them. All also took chances with throws, apparently aware that just because a Vikings defender was running with the guy, that defender was very unlikely to turn his head and/or try to make a play on the ball. That is good film study and understanding. And, of course, the pass rush didn't get home often against any of the last 3 QBs. Rodgers was able to make slight movements in the pocket that bought him critical time, while Allen moved well and took off running when necessary. Goff didn't really have to do much of either. It seemed like he was able to drop back, set, scan the field, and get everything into most of his throws.

The more I look at it, I think the Vikings have to change their mentality on defense a bit. Offenses understand that the defensive secondary players are not going to take risks. They may come up and play physical at the line and one-on-one, but when a ball is in the air this group of defenders is not looking to jump it or take many risks. They are going to play off, especially on the deeper routes, and try to disrupt the receiver as he catches it. So there isn't a ton of risk in going deep on the Vikings right now, especially if the opposing offense is running well and creating favorable down-distance situations and protecting the QB. Opposing OCs also seem to understand the schemes the defense sets up in and have found ways to consistently create matchups that heavily favor the offense, like getting WRs to be covered by LBs, or even better, getting RBs and TEs uncovered down the field.

Waynes is more a product of a system that needs some revisions. I think he's a good athlete. I think he can play the CB position effectively. I just think he needs to be told to go get the ball, as I think all of the Vikings DBs need to be told that. Starting jumping routes. Start making plays on the ball. Give the QB something to really worry about for a change, because right now, I don't see any fear from opposing QBs. They are slicing and dicing, going 100 in a 50 mile per hour zone because they know the cops are at the donut shop. Time for Zimmer and company to alter that calculus. When they do, the defense is going to have an amazing game where a bunch of turnovers are created and everyone returns to talking about this team as a serious playoff contender. I hope it happens against the Eagles, but I think it's going to take another 2 or 3 games of this current stuff before Zimmer finally corrects it.
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:15 pm

2010 all over again :(
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:15 pm

1. Trae Waynes is doing what he's taught to do. Zimmer is famous for this technique. He practically invented it. The ball gets to the receiver, and the DB rips the arms apart.

2. Whoever said Rhodes would have done the same thing as Waynes is exactly right. It's what Zimmer teaches. The difference between Waynes and Rhodes is strength. Rhodes has dominant strength for a CB. Waynes does not.

3. Sam Shields was out of football for 2 years prior to this year. And for the record, in spite of Shields breaking up a pass last night, he was TERRIBLE. Worse than any of our DBs. He missed a mountain of tackles, he got beat time after time on routes. Terrible. The Rams can have him.

4. I know Marcus Peters was supposedly nursing something or other, but this guy is so overrated that it's not even funny. He got famous in Kansas City for taking chances and jumping routes and making interceptions. But isn't it interesting that they couldn't wait to get rid of him? Here's the deal. McVay said they wouldn't play him unless he was 100% ready. And if that's his best, then he's complete dogsh!t. Thielen and Diggs made him look silly.

5. The Rams will win a bunch of regular-season games because they play in an awful division. But they'll get their butts handed to them in the playoffs. Their defense is crap, and that offense will disintegrate if they get into any weather. They'd better pray they get home field advantage throughout the playoffs.

6. If you can't tell, I'm more pissed today than I was watching the game last night. I can't stand Sean McVay, and I can't stand the Rams. The way Cousins, Diggs and Thielen were playing, we should have destroyed them. Instead, all we're hearing about is how amazing the Rams are. They opened against the Raiders and Cardinals, and now that they've played us, they get the Seahawks, Broncos and 49ers. This is a first-place schedule? Sorry. I'm ticked. That game was winnable last night, and our defense didn't show up. Ugh!
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by PacificNorseWest » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:27 pm

Marcus Peters is a top CB in the game. He wasn't retained by KC because of his attitude. His play shouldn't be in question though. He's a ball hawk that any team would want.
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Re: A Quick Comment on Tre Waynes

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:30 pm

PacificNorseWest wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:27 pm
Marcus Peters is a top CB in the game. He wasn't retained by KC because of his attitude. His play shouldn't be in question though. He's a ball hawk that any team would want.
We'll agree to disagree. He was garbage last night.
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