Where is the Elite Defense?

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Laserman
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by Laserman » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:51 am

Zimmer developed his Defensive Guru status over ten years ago with the bengals. The League has changed a lot sine then. Time for Zimmer to Adapt instead of relying on a scheme that worked great back then
. One win in September and another loss against Philly staring us down. Not looking good for us this season.
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by TSonn » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:55 am

“Probably anywhere I’ve ever been, I’ve never been this poor in pass coverage,” Zimmer said. “We’re going to have to look at everything we’re doing and get back to doing things correctly.”

This concerns me because it has the feeling of "my way is correct and the guys are just playing wrong" as opposed to saying "I need to get guys in better position to succeed" since it's pretty clear he's getting out-schemed, not out-fundamentaled.
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by Cliff » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:56 am

TSonn wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:55 am
This concerns me because it has the feeling of "my way is correct and the guys are just playing wrong" as opposed to saying "I need to get guys in better position to succeed" since it's pretty clear he's getting out-schemed, not out-fundamentaled.
I don't know ... there are a lot of missed tackles and missed assignments out there.
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by TSonn » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:01 am

Cliff wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:56 am
I don't know ... there are a lot of missed tackles and missed assignments out there.
True. But any scheme that puts Barr on WRs multiple times throughout the game is a bad one. McVay knew how to get us confused enough (or to just out-scheme us) to get Barr on speedy WRs all game. Some of it is probably miscommunication (the 75 yard TD to Kupp) but some is definitely the scheme (Barr on Woods for the last Rams TD).
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by soflavike » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:31 am

TSonn wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:55 am
“Probably anywhere I’ve ever been, I’ve never been this poor in pass coverage,” Zimmer said. “We’re going to have to look at everything we’re doing and get back to doing things correctly.”

This concerns me because it has the feeling of "my way is correct and the guys are just playing wrong" as opposed to saying "I need to get guys in better position to succeed" since it's pretty clear he's getting out-schemed, not out-fundamentaled.
When Anthony Barr is covering wide receivers (or rather following them as they run into the end zone with the ball), it's not a matter of getting the players to do it right... it's a matter of getting the players into the right coverage matchups.
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Cliff
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by Cliff » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:34 am

soflavike wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:31 am
When Anthony Barr is covering wide receivers (or rather following them as they run into the end zone with the ball), it's not a matter of getting the players to do it right... it's a matter of getting the players into the right coverage matchups.
Do we know for sure that Barr was supposed to be alone? Maybe he was supposed to have help up top?

It's very possible that it was a scheme issue but it's tough to know when we don't know what the assignments actually were.
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:10 am

As much as I cant stand Barr right now, I HIGHLY doubt Zim was like "ok you're going to match up on their WRs half the game". Something went wrong there. Either a flaw in the system or great play design by McVay
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by TSonn » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:16 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:10 am
As much as I cant stand Barr right now, I HIGHLY doubt Zim was like "ok you're going to match up on their WRs half the game". Something went wrong there. Either a flaw in the system or great play design by McVay
Right. Isn't the answer concerning either way? One answer means Zimmer's scheme is outdated, the other means he can't adjust his scheme.

If we come out looking the same against the Eagles with a 10 day break, there's going to have to be a conversation about Zimmer's future, despite what he has done the past 3 years. It's like when a 32 year old HOF RB hits a wall, or when defenses figured out how to neutralize Kapernick - sometimes things hit fast and there's no way to fix it besides moving on.
Last edited by TSonn on Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by Cliff » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:16 am

If you've ever wondered why Zimmer doesn't start rookie CBs immediately I give you Mike Hughes. He's got all the tools but you can tell there is just too much for him to know in Zimmer's scheme. Waynes going out at half time hurt too. By the way, anybody heard anything else about Waynes?
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by mansquatch » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:28 pm

If you go back over Zimmer's tenure you will hear many of the players saying the scheme is all about technique. Zimmer's scheme isn't outdated. They run both Zone and Man Coverage. They run line stunts and various exotic blitzes, most notably, "sugaring" the A Gap. This isn't Leslie Frasier slavishly running Tampa 2 Zone all game long. The issue is the players are just not executing Zimmer's D. Whether it be blown assignments or poor execution, they are not getting it done.

What is perplexing is that this isn't year one. Most of these guys are going into their 3rd to 5th season in this system. There is really no excuse for the lack of execution.
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by Cliff » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:50 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:28 pm
What is perplexing is that this isn't year one. Most of these guys are going into their 3rd to 5th season in this system. There is really no excuse for the lack of execution.
It's almost like there's something going on with the defensive group that has them distracted. :whistle:

The group didn't lose its talent overnight though. The problems are fixable but I don't think it'll be easy.
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by S197 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:56 pm

Nothing is really working right now and it's been that way since the 2nd half of the Saints game. It's not just short passes and misdirections, the secondary was absolutely gashed by the deep ball. If it's not that, TE's are left wide open. Call it whatever you want but it's simply unacceptable to invest as much capital as we have in this defense to have it come out looking flat game after game. I think Zimmer is a great coach but something is seriously wrong and I've always said you fix problems from the top down. I'm not saying he should be fired but something is very wrong. Even when things didn't look great in the 1st half, this team could make some great halftime adjustments. We simply don't see that anymore.

I don't know if morale is impacted from Everson, Zimmer's eye is impacting his playcalling, or some other crazy reason. And frankly, I don't give a ####. Fix it. That's what Zimmer would say to his players and that's what I'm saying to him now.
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by mansquatch » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:43 pm

Pretty Much what SI said. The Defensive issues go back to last January. Something is off with this unit.
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:49 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:28 pm
If you go back over Zimmer's tenure you will hear many of the players saying the scheme is all about technique. Zimmer's scheme isn't outdated. They run both Zone and Man Coverage. They run line stunts and various exotic blitzes, most notably, "sugaring" the A Gap. This isn't Leslie Frasier slavishly running Tampa 2 Zone all game long. The issue is the players are just not executing Zimmer's D. Whether it be blown assignments or poor execution, they are not getting it done.

What is perplexing is that this isn't year one. Most of these guys are going into their 3rd to 5th season in this system. There is really no excuse for the lack of execution.
One big thing I'm seeing is absolutely HORRIBLE linebacker play. Both Barr and Kendricks are playing pretty bad right now, and have been for some time. With most of the damage against the Vikings since the Saints game coming in the middle of the field, I think the problems start with our linebackers.

In the run game, both Barr and Kendricks just go flying at wherever they think the football is going, and they overrun the play. Last night, Gurley was simply waiting for them to overpursue, then cutting back. It was like stealing.

In the passing game, Zimmer needs to start using Barr as a pass rusher because the guy can't cover anybody. Not tight ends, not running backs, and certainly not receivers.

As for the DBs, the injuries don't help. At one point, you had Hughes, Hill and Alexander on the field. No chance against that offense in that environment.

We've also stopped taking the ball away. Four turnovers against SF, and none since.

Hard to know what the problem is, but this doesn't look like the same group of guys. We're not out of it yet, but we're a half-game worse than we were at this point last year, and our defense isn't playing winning football. Zimm needs to get this corrected in a hurry. Otherwise, the finger-pointing will start, and the season will spiral out of control.
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Re: Where is the Elite Defense?

Post by allday1991 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:44 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:49 pm
One big thing I'm seeing is absolutely HORRIBLE linebacker play. Both Barr and Kendricks are playing pretty bad right now, and have been for some time. With most of the damage against the Vikings since the Saints game coming in the middle of the field, I think the problems start with our linebackers.

In the run game, both Barr and Kendricks just go flying at wherever they think the football is going, and they overrun the play. Last night, Gurley was simply waiting for them to overpursue, then cutting back. It was like stealing.

In the passing game, Zimmer needs to start using Barr as a pass rusher because the guy can't cover anybody. Not tight ends, not running backs, and certainly not receivers.

As for the DBs, the injuries don't help. At one point, you had Hughes, Hill and Alexander on the field. No chance against that offense in that environment.

We've also stopped taking the ball away. Four turnovers against SF, and none since.

Hard to know what the problem is, but this doesn't look like the same group of guys. We're not out of it yet, but we're a half-game worse than we were at this point last year, and our defense isn't playing winning football. Zimm needs to get this corrected in a hurry. Otherwise, the finger-pointing will start, and the season will spiral out of control.
You forgot the lack of dline pressure. We had 38 sacks last year and the majority were earlier in the season. I dont care who your cbs are, give a wr 4-5 seconds someones getting open. We had the chance to address oline/dline and took another developmental cb, which apparently waynes and alexander are and rhodes looks ok at best this season.
Not to mention the money they've paid this defence, signed big F/A and it looks worse than it did a year before? Coaching, give zimmer two games then fire his dumbass seriuosly. Everyone returned from last year, did everyone just forget there technique or playbook for the defence? Its zimmer, hes been figured out and has no idea how to change it up. The rams looked the best they have all year against us and already played some of the worst defences from last year such as the chargers. Only the vikings could bring in a argueable better team than last year (cousins) and regress from the best defence to a bottom 25, 4th most rushing yards per game to dead last and 10-12th in pass yards to 4th. Cousins was the big question mark and is currently the only good thing this team has going for them. This franchise will only win a superbowl when they're 9-7 wildcard team with no expectations, ive said it once and ill say it again this franchise chokes under pressure. Its all they know how to do
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