Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by 808vikingsfan » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:49 am

Last week it was get rid of Compton. This week Carlson and Treadwell. Wonder who it will be next week.

Some quick thoughts.

Alexander made a couple of big plays but also gave up a few big ones as well. I thought overall, the secondary played better than last week.
Pass protection was solid IMO.
Thielen is sooo good. Love his game. Both he and Diggs compliment eachother so well.
Zimmer mentioned the non holding calls numerous times during his PC, including the blocked punt. I can't understand how GB gets away with it.
The NFL should get rid of ties. Change it to college rules. Do something. There's no place in the NFL for a tie.


Moving on.

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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:59 am

Seriously though, where is Iloka?
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by Mothman » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:39 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:14 pm
It's a great question.

Special teams cost us the win today. All we needed was average special teams play. Priefer has to be held accountable. And as much as I believe in Mike Zimmer, if he fails to hold Priefer accountable, then he's just as culpable. This was a travesty today.
Zimmer's already just as culpable and Spielman is too. I'm sure Priefer has some input into ST decisions but he didn't make the choice to trade picks, move up and draft Carlson. He didn't make the choice to go with a rookie kicker on a team with Super Bowl aspirations. That's a choice above his pay grade. Priefer didn't attempt and miss those kicks yesterday and he didn't choose to put the game on Carlson's shoulders in a hostile environment after two missed FG attempts. Priefer's working with the kicker he was given.

Ultimately, Carlson bears the most responsibility because it was his poor performance but he was in that position because of a series of choices and I doubt Priefer made the final call on any of them. The Vikes played for the FG at the end of that game. That was Zimmer's strategy.
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by Raptorman » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:42 am

Cousins now has 3 games against the Packers. He is 1-1-1 against them, but then you have this.

85/124 69% 1129 yards 376 yards per game. 8 TD's 1 Int. 9.1 yard per attempt. 115.3 rating.
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:31 am

ChicagoViking wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:46 am
Not sure what the Vikings' thinking was here -- other then the GB upmen are not exactly their best hands men and Vikings may have been looking to create a turnover -- but to suggest that the pooch gave the Pack "great field position" is disingenuous. They started on their own 30 rather than their own 25. So we gave up an extra five yards. Woo-freaking-hoo.
"Disingenuous" means not sincere ... usually by pretending to know LESS than you actually do. It's essentially "playing dumb." That's pretty much the opposite of what I did here. I typically pretend to know much more than I actually do! :lol:

But I take your point. I just thought it was a weird strategy, perhaps from a coach (Priefer) who was trying too hard to make up for the poor play of his unit. And in the hands of Aaron Rodgers, 5 yards means more than it does against other quarterbacks.
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:32 am

Mothman wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:39 am
Zimmer's already just as culpable and Spielman is too. I'm sure Priefer has some input into ST decisions but he didn't make the choice to trade picks, move up and draft Carlson. He didn't make the choice to go with a rookie kicker on a team with Super Bowl aspirations. That's a choice above his pay grade. Priefer didn't attempt and miss those kicks yesterday and he didn't choose to put the game on Carlson's shoulders in a hostile environment after two missed FG attempts. Priefer's working with the kicker he was given.

Ultimately, Carlson bears the most responsibility because it was his poor performance but he was in that position because of a series of choices and I doubt Priefer made the final call on any of them. The Vikes played for the FG at the end of that game. That was Zimmer's strategy.
You don't care for Mike Zimmer, do you?
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:34 am

Mothman wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:39 am
Zimmer's already just as culpable and Spielman is too. I'm sure Priefer has some input into ST decisions but he didn't make the choice to trade picks, move up and draft Carlson. He didn't make the choice to go with a rookie kicker on a team with Super Bowl aspirations. That's a choice above his pay grade. Priefer didn't attempt and miss those kicks yesterday and he didn't choose to put the game on Carlson's shoulders in a hostile environment after two missed FG attempts. Priefer's working with the kicker he was given.

Ultimately, Carlson bears the most responsibility because it was his poor performance but he was in that position because of a series of choices and I doubt Priefer made the final call on any of them. The Vikes played for the FG at the end of that game. That was Zimmer's strategy.
Zimmer was always agressive in his first season, especially on defense. He just seems to have fallen into this "play not to lose" #### that others have. You think New England plays not to lose? No they play to win, which is why they often do.
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by Mothman » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:02 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:32 am
You don't care for Mike Zimmer, do you?
I kiss a photo of him every night before I go to sleep.

Back to the point: if Priefer is to be held accountable for Carlson's negative impact on yesterday's game, then logically, Zimmer and Spielman should be too. If "the god damn coach" on special teams is a problem, as Landon suggested, how does that not reflect on the head coach as well since Priefer has been with the team for years?

Personally, the person I hold most responsible for the missed kicks is Carlson but if we're going to get into coaching and judgment calls and accountability above Carlson's pay grade, it simply doesn't make sense to stop at Priefer.
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:18 am

Mothman wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:02 am
I kiss a photo of him every night before I go to sleep.

Back to the point: if Priefer is to be held accountable for Carlson's negative impact on yesterday's game, then logically, Zimmer and Spielman should be too. If "the god damn coach" on special teams is a problem, as Landon suggested, how does that not reflect on the head coach as well since Priefer has been with the team for years?

Personally, the person I hold most responsible for the missed kicks is Carlson but if we're going to get into coaching and judgment calls and accountability above Carlson's pay grade, it simply doesn't make sense to stop at Priefer.
I'm just funnin' with you, Jim.

Sure, Zimmer deserves criticism, but not IMO for going for the field goal. Do you honestly believe a coach should risk a turnover in the red zone with less than a minute left in the game because he doesn't believe his kicker can make an extra-point-length kick? Windows for throwing are so much tighter in the red zone. The risk of turnover is much higher. The right call is to play for the field goal, and to run clock so that Rodgers doesn't get the ball back. Would Bill Belichick risk a turnover to protect his kicker? Heck no. He'd expect his kicker to "do his job," as he's so fond of saying -- or lose his job.

Speaking of that ... BB wouldn't put up with a kicker who can't put a ball through the pipes. So I'll be interested to see how Spielman and Zimmer handle this. Zimmer is famously not fond of kickers, anyway. Now, if they give Carlson another chance, and he continues to biff kicks, then I'll join you in the chorus of "Blame Zimmer and Spielman." As for moving up in the draft to pick Carlson? Yeah, that's a big, big miss.

My criticism of Priefer yesterday was not because of this one missed kick, but because of the overall suckitude of his special teams units. Just terrible, terrible play. They were awful during the entire preseason, and it apparently has carried over into the regular season. As I said, at a minimum, Priefer's seat has to be getting warm.
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:21 am

PurpleMustReign wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:34 am
Zimmer was always agressive in his first season, especially on defense. He just seems to have fallen into this "play not to lose" #### that others have. You think New England plays not to lose? No they play to win, which is why they often do.
New England would not have gone for the TD in that situation. Bill Belichick expects every man on the team, including the kicker, to do his job. It was an extra point. It should have been easy.

We didn't blame Zimmer for Walsh in 2015. Why blame him for Carlson? Except maybe for moving up to draft him. Ugh. Never mind.
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by Mothman » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:46 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:18 am
I'm just funnin' with you, Jim.
I know. That's why I responded with a joke(which I hope was clear).
Sure, Zimmer deserves criticism, but not IMO for going for the field goal. Do you honestly believe a coach should risk a turnover in the red zone with less than a minute left in the game because he doesn't believe his kicker can make an extra-point-length kick?
It depends on the circumstances but for the most part, yes. I've watched enough football to know the "safe" strategy isn't always safe. Lord knows enough Vikings kickers have demonstrated that over the years. Cousins was throwing the ball well and thielen, Diggs and Rudolph were all getting open and catching everything. Why not trust them and take a shot or two at the end zone? Call one of the best plays in the playbook for that situation and if it's not there, Cousins can throw the ball away and retain the option to attempt the FG.
Windows for throwing are so much tighter in the red zone. The risk of turnover is much higher. The right call is to play for the field goal, and to run clock so that Rodgers doesn't get the ball back.
That's the "by the book" call but it didn't turn out to be the right call yesterday and that wasn't exactly shocking.

I understand, playing out that strategy with a reliable veteran kicker would have made perfect sense but I think there has to be sufficient consideration given to the circumstances and that includes not just field position, clock, etc, but also the inexperience and state of mind of the kicker, his performance up to that point, the hostile environment, the pressure of Carlson attempting his first game-winning kick on the road, etc. To me, worrying about the risk of taking a shot or two at the end zone is playing not to lose, and we've seen again and again what that gets the Vikes.
Speaking of that ... BB wouldn't put up with a kicker who can't put a ball through the pipes. So I'll be interested to see how Spielman and Zimmer handle this. Zimmer is famously not fond of kickers, anyway. Now, if they give Carlson another chance, and he continues to biff kicks, then I'll join you in the chorus of "Blame Zimmer and Spielman."
Just to be clear: I'm not calling for a chorus of blame to descend on Zimmer and Spielman. I question Zimmer's strategy at the end of the game yesterday but as I've already said, I put the missed kicks on Carlson. I'm simply saying if we're going demand Priefer be held accountable, then logically, that accountability should extend up the chain.

The Vikes rolled the dice on a rookie kicker, a move that's actually worked for teams in the past but a risky move nonetheless. At the moment, it looks like that was a mistake but it's week 2 and they can course correct. I don't think it's the end of the world or anything.
My criticism of Priefer yesterday was not because of this one missed kick, but because of the overall suckitude of his special teams units. Just terrible, terrible play. They were awful during the entire preseason, and it apparently has carried over into the regular season. As I said, at a minimum, Priefer's seat has to be getting warm.
No argument here, although the return game was pretty good so the STs weren't all bad. :)
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by mansquatch » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:13 am

My post game thoughts:

Biggest positive: We have a legit QB. Not just some game manger guy and not some one year lightning in a bottle guy. We've got an elite passer with some dog in him. He isn't some guy who is old either, he is in his prime.

Thielen and Diggs are elite. Cook and Murray are a strong RB duo.

Sheldon Richardson has provided DT pass rush abiity that we haven't seen since KWill was playing for us.

Negatives:

Defense: First off, WTF, why is this in the negative section? Tackling was still not where it needs to be, way too much YAC. Especially on the dink and dunk stuff. That needs to get cleaned up, call up Antoine Winfield and have him give a clinic to all the young CBs on how to tackle a guy on those swing passes. Coverage wasn't as tight as we saw last year, but I think that will get cleaned up. The tackling was, IMO, the biggest eye sore. Also, it really felt like the game plan from the coaches was a bit "psyched out" by the Rogers injury. It was really lack luster early.

Offensive Game Plan/ Play Calling: As with last week, it really felt like it took too long for the Vikings to find their footing on offense. Obviously late they got their crap together, but why did it take so long. GB is hardly an elite defense. Better than last week, but not much better. DeFillipo has still not earned my confidence. Last year we were adjusting and counter punching MUCH faster. I fear that this is going to cost us a game or two.

And last, the obvious one: Special Teams. I'm actually more annoyed with Priefer on the blocked punt than I am the Field Goals. The block should NEVER happen. Ridiculous. Especially that early in a game against our biggest rival.

On the field goals, to be honest I'm mad at Carlson. I think Zimmer's response on it, that he expects guys to do their job, is correct. What can the coaches really do to make a Kicker execute his kicks? They can't scheme it differently, they really do not have another kicker they can go to during the game, so they can either take the game out of his hands or trot him out there and expect him to execute. If they do the former option, that is limited by down and distance. On 4th and probably more than 2, you are going to take the kick unless you REALLY have no confidence. (or you don't think your defense will stop the other offense, FYI HC of Da Bears.) You guys have said the rest on the Carlson story. He either gets it done on Sunday or they will cut him. (Dear Spielman, I'm a fan, but stop drafting kickers and Punters, the success rate has been crap so far.) My only fear is they string him along and he costs them a few games like Walsh did in 2016. I'm hoping that given how recent that disaster was, they'll not wait so long.

That being said, Forbath was one of the worst in the league at Extra Points and those should be a gimme also, so I get why they made the change. But so far the grass isn't any greener... UGH.
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:40 am

mansquatch wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:13 am
That being said, Forbath was one of the worst in the league at Extra Points and those should be a gimme also, so I get why they made the change. But so far the grass isn't any greener... UGH.
Here's a really simplistic, non-scientific take on your take.

Forbath missed 5 XPs last year, which cost us 5 points.

Carlson missed 3 FGs yesterday, which cost us 9 points.

For the record, Forbath is still available out there. So is Dan Bailey.
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:45 am

Mothman wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:46 am
It depends on the circumstances but for the most part, yes. I've watched enough football to know the "safe" strategy isn't always safe. Lord knows enough Vikings kickers have demonstrated that over the years.
We'll just agree to disagree here. I don't think you can coach based on what Gary Anderson did in 1998, but reasonable people can disagree.

Going forward, I don't see how they can keep Daniel Carlson. This team is too good and has too much championship potential to trust such an important part of the game to a kid who doesn't seem to have the mental makeup. Yes, he has a big leg, but if I can drive a golf ball 400 yards but only hit 1 fairway per round, what good is it? If we're worried about kickoffs, let Wile kickoff. He's done it before, and he's got a big leg.

Please, Spielman. Sign a veteran kicker you can count on. Don't blow this rare opportunity on a kicker's fragile psyche.
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Re: Vikings Vs. Packers Postgame Thread

Post by mansquatch » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:53 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:40 am
Here's a really simplistic, non-scientific take on your take.

Forbath missed 5 XPs last year, which cost us 5 points.

Carlson missed 3 FGs yesterday, which cost us 9 points.

For the record, Forbath is still available out there. So is Dan Bailey.
I'm not saying I'm happy with how things have gone, just that I understand why they felt like making a change made sense. Where they failed was the fact that the new guy, so far, is worse than Forbath at Field Goals.
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