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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:46 pm
by YikesVikes
Hard to find talented OLinemen in the NFL draft? Tell that to the boys.

Left Tackle Tyron Smith
Left Guard Connor Williams
Center Travis Frederick
Right Guard Zack Martin
Right Tackle La'el Collins (Was to be a first rounder).

They invested in and as a result, they have a fantastic line. We don't need to have five 1st rounders to do it. However. An injection of talent in the position was needed by the Vikings. We didn't invest like we should have an have been overpaying average guys as a result.

I don't understand the argument about Dlinemen getting bigger and faster. If anything, that would increase the demand to have the best guys you can on the line trying to stop them. Throwing below average talent out there is the opposite of what one needs. Again, no one is saying to only draft olinemen. However, in this last draft, the FO was irresponsible in taking a CB int he first over a OL. We are stacked at CB and bare at Tackle and Guard (3 out of 5 positions on the line). A 2nd round corner made more sense. As a result, we are paying for it now. Make stupid decisions, win stupid prizes.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:48 pm
by YikesVikes
808vikingsfan wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:21 am
I think you can have average O linemen and with reps, can be a serviceable line. Scheme, good qb or rb can make the Oline even better looking. You cannot have average pass rushers or average dbs. The talent has to be there.

Just one man's opinion
What happens when you already have great pass rushers and great dbs but keep selecting more instead of the oline?

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:51 pm
by YikesVikes
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:17 pm
You've got to be able to find and develop some diamonds in the rough. Considering position groups like our wide receivers, the evidence suggests we're pretty good at it.
Right, but one should diversify their allocations to better improve their chances. I.e., do not bundle their late round picks in one position group and hope for the best while allocating all their top picks to another. You mix them and increase the likelihood of getting a few stars in EACH position group.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:03 am
by YikesVikes
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:47 am
Agreed. We think ours is bad. Look at Buffalo, Seattle, Carolina, Washington....I can keep going. Defensive Lineman are getting better and offensive lineman are getting worse.
You can leave Washington out of that list. They actually have a pretty great oline. Last year's fall was due to injuries. When healthy, their oline is very good because they have invested in it. Last year was an outlier.

An analysis of draft picks for the other teams would probably show a lack of investment in quality players. Stupid games, stupid prizes.

Lets take Carolina for instance:
In the past 10 years, they have taken 3 linemen in the top 3 rounds. That's a piss poor investment and as a result their line sucks.

Lets take Seattle.
All anyone has said about Seattle for the last 3 years is how bad their oline is. What do they do in the draft?
1 Rashaad Penny 27 RB
3 Rasheem Green 79 DT
4 Will Dissly 120 TE
5 Shaquem Griffin 141 OLB 1
5 Tre Flowers 146 S
5 Michael Dickson 149 P
5 Jamarco Jones 168 T
6 Jacob Martin 186 LB
7 Alex McGough 220 QB

I'm sure that 5th round Punter is more important than an oline.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:26 am
by 808vikingsfan
YikesVikes wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:48 pm
What happens when you already have great pass rushers and great dbs but keep selecting more instead of the oline?
I don't think you can call any DB besides Rhodes great. Alexander is hurt. If the Vikings didn't have Hughes, would you really feel OK with Sherels or Newman? Mackensie wasn't all that great to begin with. Same with the DE, Griffen is great. Hunter is good but still developing. If Griffen re injures his foot, who else at DE can we really count on? Maybe Weatherly?

I still think taking BPA is the way to go. IMO, It's THE reason the Vikings are one of the most talented teams in the league

And if I'm not mistaken, they did draft OL in round 2.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:14 am
by 808vikingsfan
YikesVikes wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:46 pm
Hard to find talented OLinemen in the NFL draft? Tell that to the boys.

Left Tackle Tyron Smith
Left Guard Connor Williams
Center Travis Frederick
Right Guard Zack Martin
Right Tackle La'el Collins (Was to be a first rounder).

They invested in and as a result, they have a fantastic line. We don't need to have five 1st rounders to do it. However. An injection of talent in the position was needed by the Vikings. We didn't invest like we should have an have been overpaying average guys as a result.

I don't understand the argument about Dlinemen getting bigger and faster. If anything, that would increase the demand to have the best guys you can on the line trying to stop them. Throwing below average talent out there is the opposite of what one needs. Again, no one is saying to only draft olinemen. However, in this last draft, the FO was irresponsible in taking a CB int he first over a OL. We are stacked at CB and bare at Tackle and Guard (3 out of 5 positions on the line). A 2nd round corner made more sense. As a result, we are paying for it now. Make stupid decisions, win stupid prizes.
Cannot argue the Cowboys have a good line. But look at their passing game. It wasn't very good. Ranked #27 in yds/game. Even the Browns and GB with Hundley did better. Having a good OL does not guarantee anything.

Another point. Put TJ Clemmings in the Dallas lineup and that entire unit will struggle. Oline is only as good as your weakest link. 4 all pros and a TJ is worse than having 5 average linemen.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:06 am
by YikesVikes
808vikingsfan wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:14 am
Another point. Put TJ Clemmings in the Dallas lineup and that entire unit will struggle. Oline is only as good as your weakest link. 4 all pros and a TJ is worse than having 5 average linemen.
TJ is barely an NFL caliber player. However, a bad player on the oline can be hidden with help. Great Guards can help poor tackles and vice versa and TEs can chip to help tackles as well.

As for passing offense. They are starting a young QB who is an efficent QB. Dak is like Bridge, he wont throw for 400 yards often. Add zeke and his ground control offense and his stats are going to be lower.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:16 am
by YikesVikes
808vikingsfan wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:26 am
I don't think you can call any DB besides Rhodes great. Alexander is hurt. If the Vikings didn't have Hughes, would you really feel OK with Sherels or Newman? Mackensie wasn't all that great to begin with. Same with the DE, Griffen is great. Hunter is good but still developing. If Griffen re injures his foot, who else at DE can we really count on? Maybe Weatherly?

I still think taking BPA is the way to go. IMO, It's THE reason the Vikings are one of the most talented teams in the league

And if I'm not mistaken, they did draft OL in round 2.
Just to be clear. Im saying we could have drafted a cb in the 2nd. So whoever we took would have been available to play.

3 out of 4 starting DBs are above average players
2 out of 4 are legit arguments for best at their position. Cb and Saftey dont play in a vacum, they have a symbiotic relationship.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:50 pm
by J. Kapp 11
YikesVikes wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:03 am
You can leave Washington out of that list. They actually have a pretty great oline. Last year's fall was due to injuries. When healthy, their oline is very good because they have invested in it. Last year was an outlier.
And ... they can't stop anybody.

Have atrocious wide receivers.

Traded up to get RGIII.

Again, you invest in one place, you give up something in another. Very few teams have the roster depth the Vikings have. Most people) believe Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer have done a pretty damn good job of building this roster.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:01 pm
by YikesVikes
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:50 pm
And ... they can't stop anybody.

Have atrocious wide receivers.

Traded up to get RGIII.

Again, you invest in one place, you give up something in another. Very few teams have the roster depth the Vikings have. Most people) believe Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer have done a pretty damn good job of building this roster.
Umm,
You aren't making sense. I said their oline was talented. Never said they only invested in it. Washington has a lot more problems than their oline, none of which was created by drafting a decent oline.

I don't understand why people believe that because Rick and Zimmer has done a good job building the roster that they are free from making mistakes. They aren't. They built a damn good defene and offense prior to the 2018 draft. HOWEVER, going CB in the first was a mistake. The depth at CB could have been bolstered later in the draft. Our depth at OLine has not been bolstered and we were punished today as a result. 49ers are a bad pass rushing team and they took it to us with hurries, pressure, and sacks.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:03 pm
by YikesVikes
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:50 pm
And ... they can't stop anybody.

Have atrocious wide receivers.

Traded up to get RGIII.

Again, you invest in one place, you give up something in another. Very few teams have the roster depth the Vikings have. Most people) believe Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer have done a pretty damn good job of building this roster.
Not sure if you are watching but they look pretty good stopping a decent Arizona team.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:49 pm
by halfgiz
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:50 pm
And ... they can't stop anybody.

Have atrocious wide receivers.

Traded up to get RGIII.

Again, you invest in one place, you give up something in another. Very few teams have the roster depth the Vikings have. Most people) believe Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer have done a pretty damn good job of building this roster.
And not many teams have an 84 million QB with a below average line. I think that Easton going down messed things up.
The guard we drafted to eventually replace Berger didn’t even make the team...

But I agree that rest of the team they have done a good job.
I just have been down on Rick for the job he has done to fix the OL. And he has had plenty of time.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:00 pm
by J. Kapp 11
YikesVikes wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:01 pm
Umm,
You aren't making sense. I said their oline was talented. Never said they only invested in it. Washington has a lot more problems than their oline, none of which was created by drafting a decent oline.

I don't understand why people believe that because Rick and Zimmer has done a good job building the roster that they are free from making mistakes. They aren't. They built a damn good defene and offense prior to the 2018 draft. HOWEVER, going CB in the first was a mistake. The depth at CB could have been bolstered later in the draft. Our depth at OLine has not been bolstered and we were punished today as a result. 49ers are a bad pass rushing team and they took it to us with hurries, pressure, and sacks.
Please read what I posted. It makes perfect sense.

The Redskins may have a good O-line (questionable opinion there, but I'll give it to you), but they're weak in many other places. Yes, they have lots and lots of problems, which is why I find it amusing that you continue to hold them up as some sort of benchmark.

The Vikings choose to draft impact positions high and develop lower-round linemen. You don't have to agree with it, but that's the way it is. Heck, I'm not sure what the right answer is. But my point was, if you'll please read it, that with free agency and the salary cap, you CAN'T be awesome at every position in today's NFL. Heck, New England isn't great at every position. Never has been. But they've got 5 trophies. What you have to do is to decide what's going to be your strength, then figure out how to get by with the rest.

And by the way, San Fran did not "punish" us today. Last I checked, they lost. They had about a half dozen players go down with injuries. That sounds like we punished them. Cousins was sharp. Diggs and Thielen played well. Cook played well. The defense, while it had a couple of lapses, harassed Garappolo into many bad decisions and took the ball away four times, including two interceptions in the fourth quarter, when it really counted. Once again, there were player comments that we've heard before ... that as time went on, Garoppolo began to get gun-shy and scared of the Vikings' pass rush. The Vikings' defense sealed the victory today. Sounds like a good investment to me.

Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:40 pm
by YikesVikes
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:00 pm
Please read what I posted. It makes perfect sense.

The Redskins may have a good O-line (questionable opinion there, but I'll give it to you), but they're weak in many other places. Yes, they have lots and lots of problems, which is why I find it amusing that you continue to hold them up as some sort of benchmark.

The Vikings choose to draft impact positions high and develop lower-round linemen. You don't have to agree with it, but that's the way it is. Heck, I'm not sure what the right answer is. But my point was, if you'll please read it, that with free agency and the salary cap, you CAN'T be awesome at every position in today's NFL. Heck, New England isn't great at every position. Never has been. But they've got 5 trophies. What you have to do is to decide what's going to be your strength, then figure out how to get by with the rest.

And by the way, San Fran did not "punish" us today. Last I checked, they lost. They had about a half dozen players go down with injuries. That sounds like we punished them. Cousins was sharp. Diggs and Thielen played well. Cook played well. The defense, while it had a couple of lapses, harassed Garappolo into many bad decisions and took the ball away four times, including two interceptions in the fourth quarter, when it really counted. Once again, there were player comments that we've heard before ... that as time went on, Garoppolo began to get gun-shy and scared of the Vikings' pass rush. The Vikings' defense sealed the victory today. Sounds like a good investment to me.
I never chose the Skins as some example of how an organization should be run or draft. I simply explained that they have a good line and shouldn't be on your list of bad lines. Not sure why you are hooked on that.

**You keep naming all of these other teams while ignoring the VIKINGS. The VIKINGS were in the position to fix their oline after drafting and fixing a fantastic team. We already had a fantastic defense. We already had the QB and WR positions in great position. The VIKINGS investment should have been a first-round guard and not a CB. As a result, we made an incremental improvement to an already fantastic defense while our 2nd rounder is riding the bench. We didn't have the luxury. As a result, the oline performed horribly and will continue to do so. YOU thought Compton would be a quality starter. I told you from the start that he wasn't. I'm having nightmares thinking about what the Rams will do to this Oline.***

Adressing the OLine in this draft wouldn't have broken up the amazing defense we already have. Addressing the oline in this draft wouldn't have made us cut Diggs.We would still have all of those players, a 2nd round corner for depth (who could come off the bench and see playing time like Hughes and Hill) and we wouldn't have a LG in the game that keeps giving up sacks to runstoppers. It doesn't ahve to be one of the other.... **WE COULD AND SHOULD HAVE HAD BOTH**. Excuse my fustration but I don't understand how you can think we punished anyone. We barely won and I can't remember seeing a signifigant hole being opened up for our Rbs all day.