Berger, Sirles, Easton, Hill, Andrews?, Compton?

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fiestavike
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Berger, Sirles, Easton, Hill, Andrews?, Compton?

Post by fiestavike » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:27 pm

Outside of Pat Elflein, the Vikings have had very little success drafting offensive linemen in the last many years. Perhaps this is because they aren't investing in the position with high enough picks to get the kind of guys who can make an impact, but the funny thing is, the Vikings aren't alone in struggling to 'hit' on O-Line picks in the draft. OL play is broadly seen to be at a pretty low level in the NFL, and its widely attributed to the proliferation of the spread offense in college and the CBA rules which restrict the ability to teach and correct young linemen.

I've bloviated about this in the past, but I can't help but wonder if the Vikings are moving on to a new approach to linemen, namely plucking guys off other teams practice squads or signing journeymen veterans who may be less talented, but have had time to improve. Josh Andrews, perhaps the latest example of this, has spent 4 years on the Eagles practice squad. He may be more advanced in running an NFL offense than any guy coming out this year, and he's spent years within an offense that will probably have a lot of similarities with the one we are going to be running under DeFilippo. Tom Compton has bounced around a few different teams, and probably doesn't have a high ceiling. The same might well have been said of Joe Berger.

Please understand, I'm not trying to put on the purple colored glasses and insist that we are going to be in good shape with the guys we have. I am still very wary. But I have to wonder if this isn't part of a broader strategic approach to addressing the position given the restrictions teams are forced to operate under. Even Mike Remmers (the first time) would've been an example of this, although he ultimately blossomed in CAR after we let him go. If you are drafting an offensive lineman, a technician like David Yankey isn't likely to peak during the time you have him under contract (and remember the hype?). James Daniels might be in the same boat for all i know. Danny Isadora looked like an absolute train wreck last year. Perhaps after 4 years on a Practice squad, he might be NFL ready. Wait until training camp is over and I won't be surprised if the Vikings are trading a late round pick for a bubble OL who has had a few years of NFL practices to season. It might be one of the wiser ways to get competent OL play in this day and age, unless you have the opportunity to invest in the Zack Martins and Quenton Nelsons of the world.

Last thought on this, look what guys with 1 good year of production got in FA as they graduated out of their rookie deals, Jenson in Bal, and the RG from Car. They are just coming into their own at the very end of their rookie deals. Does it make sense to invest draft picks (especially high draft picks) so you can build good players primed to move on to other teams or huge contracts? How can you get competent lineplay without huge contracts if you can't get it on rookie contracts. Its possible that the Vikings are a half step ahead of the game.
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Re: Berger, Sirles, Easton, Hill, Andrews?, Compton?

Post by mike2mike » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:32 pm

This is an interesting take. You make a lot of good points. OL definately at a disadvantage with rule changes that Donte allow contact and are behind the learning curve and may take longer to mesh together for that reason as well. Perhaps that reduces the difference in play from the best and worst draft choices at the position. I have several reasons I think we should totally absolutely neglect OL in the early part of the draft and you just gave me some more.

The logic is that if you have some probability of hitting on an OL late in the draft as well as undrafted free agents, you can get to quality through quantity. For instance, if the odds of any one interior lineman hitting a certain threshold of play by a certain time is only 12%, you can get 8 guys and have about a 65% chance at least one of them reaches that threshold of play by that certain time in theory. In practice it's not 65% but it's way higher than 12%. That's true with any position, but it's easier done when you have the starting and backup reps available, and you have to pick some position. If you try it with a position you have spent a 2nd round pick on it sort of feels like a waste of the second round pick since those are higher probability and/or higher upside bets. Easton may give up a lot of early reps because of health so that is two spots to rotate plenty of players through that you require to be versitile.

On top of that, if you are an undrafted free agent, you want to sign with a team where you have a reasonable chance to compete to start. If a team drafts an OL in the frost two picks, there are plenty of reasons those UDFAs will think they won't be given a fair competition to start regardless of what is said by the coach and GM. But if we wait until late, they will be lining up a mile wide to play for us.

So if we do NOT draft an OL at all until day 3, that Is one benefit.

Several other benefits?
The ability for us to draft an OL and as a result trade another OL, recoup draft picks and get another position that can add value is minimal.
However, we draft Hughes and so if we decide we can move on from Waynes or Alexander at any point, that Is a huge financial savings in the future. Plus, via trade we may be able to get an elite guard from the Trade directly. Plus The cap savings of the future will allow for a signing of an OL or any other position in the future or in the present using future cap in the deal.
I'm not at all suggesting we SHOULD make such a trade, but it goes to show you the value of CB vs guard in the NFL, and IF Hughes is developed into what we think he can be, we have options.
Plus Hughes is a kick returner and punt returner which also provides cap savings having a player on rookie contract and may help save a roster spot or two down the road.

But what about OL?
We have SEVERAL chances to find an OL outside of draft
1)By raw numbers of late picks and UDFAs
2)By using multiple spots on the practice squad and developing
3)By other teams that make waives of draft picks hoping to sneak a player onto practice squad.
4)By June 1st cuts
5)By trade market.
6)By going in aggressively in a future year

Interior OL is NOT that valuable in the NFL by salary cap and trade value and free agents. In other words, it's easier to replace a guard then a CB, DE, WR, QB, LB, and so on.

A team has to choose whether they want to build top down or bottom up. There is a middle ground but you basically re choosing to aim to fill all your needs with B players, or some A players and some C players. Choosing some A and some C or even some D and leaving open a need or two helps you less immediately but helps you a lot more if/when you do address those positions. The Vikings chose to make their strength at CB even stronger.
I like it because Zimmer is great at getting development out of early first round CBs. Even if you aren't a Waynes fan, you have to admit he got better. Rhodes moved from left CB to right and wasn't so good and then he ended the year as the most improved player. Newman had a revival. Capitan Munnerlyn made a huge leap a step a slot CB.
There are probably 3 CBs on the field on 50-70% of all snaps. And if you have CBs that can shut down their guy, you can bring the safeties up and shut the opponent's run game down and TEs and suffocate an offense if you can get to the QB you can blitz more. You can get more 3 and outs and as a result wear out the opposing defense because they have to be on the field around 40 minutes a game instead of 25-35minutes a game. We can trade a CB for whatever position we neglect if we really want to.

I want a defensive end or two in the first 4 rounds as well. Robison is retiring next year, Griffin is 30, Hunter is in the contract year and defensive end is the highest paid position after QB in the NFL. If we hit on a DE we have options that we may not be able to afford in free agency in the future if we keep Hunter, Barr and Diggs, but if we keep Waynes as well then we definitely will need an option to free up cap space. Extending Hunter on a shorter deal so we have options to trade him, or planning to trade Griffin in a year or two is one way to do that if there are free agents too good to pass up.

I think we still could use a WR and a TE and a RB for DeFillipo. If you get the ball out quick to the perimeter on natural pick plays and quick drags and crossers and dump offs to Cook on the outside, the OL aren't usually what determines success or failure on a play unless they really screw up like fall over or fumble the snap or illegal procedure. Hughes will do more for the OL by helping secure turnovers, three and outs and gaining back field position on returns that end up wearing out the opposition late in games. The way Zimmer wants to win games is not to have to drop back and pass a lot and not to have to put the QB at risk. He wants to bury teams to 3 and outs, pin them deep win field position and capitalize off of good field position repeatedly until the other team runs out of juice. I say load up the defense first, and maybe get another RB to keep Cooks fresh, maybe a utility gadget WR and a tweener TE and we can find an OL through other means.
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Re: Berger, Sirles, Easton, Hill, Andrews?, Compton?

Post by jackal » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:54 pm

In all honesty I think we closed our
window on the Super Bowl in round
one. Hernadez was there for us in
round one. I think Hernadez was and
is a Steve Hutchinson type guy.

Instead we draft a three school guy
with issues who is only 5-10. Receivers
are getting bigger 6-4 is pretty normal
in every draft. I think we had a good
chance for a dominate team. Now it's
back to oh well, maybe next year.

I'm sick to death of maybe next year!
I have seen it for thirty years. Honestly
I really doubt we will ever have anything
better than our sister or smelly cousin
because of dumb draft moves and
not willing to cease the moment.
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Berger, Sirles, Easton, Hill, Andrews?, Compton?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:17 pm

jackal wrote:In all honesty I think we closed our
window on the Super Bowl in round
one. Hernadez was there for us in
round one. I think Hernadez was and
is a Steve Hutchinson type guy.

Instead we draft a three school guy
with issues who is only 5-10. Receivers
are getting bigger 6-4 is pretty normal
in every draft. I think we had a good
chance for a dominate team. Now it's
back to oh well, maybe next year.

I'm sick to death of maybe next year!
I have seen it for thirty years. Honestly
I really doubt we will ever have anything
better than our sister or smelly cousin
because of dumb draft moves and
not willing to cease the moment.
Come on dude. I get it but talent wise Hughes is a top 15 player and we currently have no depth at CB. Now we just landed O’Neill from Pitt who was the 3rd best pass blocking tackle according to PFF and allowed 1 sack in over 800 snaps. I think we’re ok. Zim likes versatility. Hernandez was a LG only. O’Neill can play both tackle slots and kick inside
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Re: Berger, Sirles, Easton, Hill, Andrews?, Compton?

Post by halfgiz » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:14 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
jackal wrote:In all honesty I think we closed our
window on the Super Bowl in round
one. Hernadez was there for us in
round one. I think Hernadez was and
is a Steve Hutchinson type guy.

Instead we draft a three school guy
with issues who is only 5-10. Receivers
are getting bigger 6-4 is pretty normal
in every draft. I think we had a good
chance for a dominate team. Now it's
back to oh well, maybe next year.

I'm sick to death of maybe next year!
I have seen it for thirty years. Honestly
I really doubt we will ever have anything
better than our sister or smelly cousin
because of dumb draft moves and
not willing to cease the moment.
Come on dude. I get it but talent wise Hughes is a top 15 player and we currently have no depth at CB. Now we just landed O’Neill from Pitt who was the 3rd best pass blocking tackle according to PFF and allowed 1 sack in over 800 snaps. I think we’re ok. Zim likes versatility. Hernandez was a LG only. O’Neill can play both tackle slots and kick inside
How is O'Neil going to play both Tackle spots? He has slow feet...
TJ Clemmings Jr.
And I wouldn't depend anytime soon on Sparano coaching him up.

Hernandez was a day one starter.
Bottom line is Rick took a gamble in the first round and it's going to bite him in the butt.
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Re: Berger, Sirles, Easton, Hill, Andrews?, Compton?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:15 am

halfgiz wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
jackal wrote:In all honesty I think we closed our
window on the Super Bowl in round
one. Hernadez was there for us in
round one. I think Hernadez was and
is a Steve Hutchinson type guy.

Instead we draft a three school guy
with issues who is only 5-10. Receivers
are getting bigger 6-4 is pretty normal
in every draft. I think we had a good
chance for a dominate team. Now it's
back to oh well, maybe next year.

I'm sick to death of maybe next year!
I have seen it for thirty years. Honestly
I really doubt we will ever have anything
better than our sister or smelly cousin
because of dumb draft moves and
not willing to cease the moment.
Come on dude. I get it but talent wise Hughes is a top 15 player and we currently have no depth at CB. Now we just landed O’Neill from Pitt who was the 3rd best pass blocking tackle according to PFF and allowed 1 sack in over 800 snaps. I think we’re ok. Zim likes versatility. Hernandez was a LG only. O’Neill can play both tackle slots and kick inside
How is O'Neil going to play both Tackle spots? He has slow feet...
TJ Clemmings Jr.
And I wouldn't depend anytime soon on Sparano coaching him up.

Hernandez was a day one starter.
Bottom line is Rick took a gamble in the first round and it's going to bite him in the butt.
Bucky brooks said that he will start off at RT and has all the tools to play left. But yeah, TJ Clemmings Jr. lol some of you guys are killing me.
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Re: Berger, Sirles, Easton, Hill, Andrews?, Compton?

Post by halfgiz » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:59 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
halfgiz wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Come on dude. I get it but talent wise Hughes is a top 15 player and we currently have no depth at CB. Now we just landed O’Neill from Pitt who was the 3rd best pass blocking tackle according to PFF and allowed 1 sack in over 800 snaps. I think we’re ok. Zim likes versatility. Hernandez was a LG only. O’Neill can play both tackle slots and kick inside
How is O'Neil going to play both Tackle spots? He has slow feet...
TJ Clemmings Jr.
And I wouldn't depend anytime soon on Sparano coaching him up.

Hernandez was a day one starter.
Bottom line is Rick took a gamble in the first round and it's going to bite him in the butt.
Bucky brooks said that he will start off at RT and has all the tools to play left. But yeah, TJ Clemmings Jr. lol some of you guys are killing me.
He's a mid-round blocking TE :lol: :lol:
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Re: Berger, Sirles, Easton, Hill, Andrews?, Compton?

Post by 84BreaksAnkles » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:49 am

jackal wrote:In all honesty I think we closed our
window on the Super Bowl in round
one. Hernadez was there for us in
round one. I think Hernadez was and
is a Steve Hutchinson type guy.

Instead we draft a three school guy
with issues who is only 5-10. Receivers
are getting bigger 6-4 is pretty normal
in every draft. I think we had a good
chance for a dominate team. Now it's
back to oh well, maybe next year.

I'm sick to death of maybe next year!
I have seen it for thirty years. Honestly
I really doubt we will ever have anything
better than our sister or smelly cousin
because of dumb draft moves and
not willing to cease the moment.
Our draft pick - Jalyn Holmes vs. Will Hernandez ;D
https://twitter.com/PatDStat/status/956 ... e-redskins
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