Vikings Draft Picks

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Mothman
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Mothman » Mon May 14, 2018 3:13 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:47 am
I think if Spielman and Zimmer really thought the offensive line was in dire straits at even one position, they would have addressed it by now in free agency or via a trade.


Considering their history, that's a generous assumption.
If they thought any of the offensive linemen available at #30 was an immediate fix for an immediate need, they would have drafted him there.
That's not exactly a given. Since joining the Vikings, Spielman has never drafted an interior lineman before the third round. He drafted Elflein in R3 last year. Prior to that, he had never drafted an interior lineman for the Vikings before the 4th round. Considering the way he has treated the guard position in particular over the years, I don't think it's a stretch to say that's indicative of his draft philosophy. In other words, even if the need was glaring and a spectacular guard prospect was on the board for him at the end of a first round in an NFL draft, I'm not so sure he'd select that player. His history suggests otherwise.

Of course, there's an argument to be made that his philosophy regarding that position is legitimate but that's not my point.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Slick Rick » Mon May 14, 2018 6:25 pm

Well, we probably weren't going to see a bunch of guys being drafted where everyone was thinking they were going to start - we have a lot of positions that are very adequately filled, and I'd say offensive line is one of the only places where we had any major chance to have drafted someone who was a likely starter. I'm not even 100% sure O'Neill will start, as some have said he is about 298 lbs which is kind of on the light side for a starting offensive lineman in the NFL. Not by much, but he could probably add 10-15 lbs so I'm not sure if that's going to hold him back or not.

I don't think this was out best draft, but I liked the Mike Hughes pick, I understand the O'Neill pick even though I'm not 100% sold on him or anything yet, and it'd be nice to see if Holmes can come in and be impactful as a reserve and eventually maybe earn a starting position like B-Rob did, or like Tom Johnson did.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by VikingLord » Mon May 14, 2018 11:27 pm

Mothman wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:13 pm
Of course, there's an argument to be made that his philosophy regarding that position is legitimate but that's not my point.
I agree Jim - it's not Spielman's style to go with guards early, probably because very few guards are usually taken in the 1st round of most drafts. It is not a position that typically finds a lot of love in the 1st for most GM's.

But still, to suggest that Spielman would see a legit need at a position and have an opportunity to draft a guy who can fill the need is hard to believe based on only a general philosophy or a track record.

I think he had Hughes as a top 15 pick on his board and when he slid to #30, he pounced on him. And yeah, that caused him to miss the ensuing run on OL, including some legit guard prospects, but, as before, if he felt really strongly about any of them and/or the need at the position, he would have traded up to get one.

The real reason I don't think this is nearly as dire as some others believe is because the Vikings went out and broke the bank to get Kirk Cousins. You don't do that and then waltz into the ensuing season with a known, glaring hole along your offensive line. No matter how poorly someone views Spielman or Zimmer, there is simply no way they are going to let that happen given the investment at QB.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Mothman » Tue May 15, 2018 7:53 am

VikingLord wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:27 pm
I agree Jim - it's not Spielman's style to go with guards early, probably because very few guards are usually taken in the 1st round of most drafts. It is not a position that typically finds a lot of love in the 1st for most GM's.

But still, to suggest that Spielman would see a legit need at a position and have an opportunity to draft a guy who can fill the need is hard to believe based on only a general philosophy or a track record.
Over the years, he's shown a strong willingness to settle for mediocrity or worse at guard so I believe his track record makes a rather compelling case. I think it's likely we're seeing a specific philosophy at work rather than a general philosophy. A GM who doesn't believe guard is a position worth selecting in the first day or two of the draft probably isn't going to pull the trigger on a guard that early no matter who is available.
I think he had Hughes as a top 15 pick on his board and when he slid to #30, he pounced on him. And yeah, that caused him to miss the ensuing run on OL, including some legit guard prospects, but, as before, if he felt really strongly about any of them and/or the need at the position, he would have traded up to get one.
Perhaps but the point I'm making is how strongly he may have felt about the need or the guard prospects is tied directly to how he views the position in the first place and he doesn't appear to sufficiently value it. In other words, put him in that same situation 10 times and I'm guessing he'd draft other positions every time.
The real reason I don't think this is nearly as dire as some others believe is because the Vikings went out and broke the bank to get Kirk Cousins. You don't do that and then waltz into the ensuing season with a known, glaring hole along your offensive line.

No matter how poorly someone views Spielman or Zimmer, there is simply no way they are going to let that happen given the investment at QB.
Again, I think their history suggests otherwise. It's no more important to protect the big investment in Cousins than it was to provide good protection for his predecessors but we've seen Spielman put makeshift or undermanned lines in front of his QBs throughout his tenure as GM.

Sorry, I just can't give him the benefit of the doubt on this. I don't think he's earned it.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by fiestavike » Tue May 15, 2018 8:24 am

Mothman wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:53 am
I think it's likely we're seeing a specific philosophy at work rather than a general philosophy. A GM who doesn't believe guard is a position worth selecting in the first day or two of the draft probably isn't going to pull the trigger on a guard that early no matter who is available.
Thats probably true, although it sounds like they were hyped over Ragnow, and I would bet if Quenton Nelson were somehow available at 30, he would have taken him. Its probably not quite so concrete as to make it a rule, but I have no doubt you are correct in terms of Spielman generally believing its a position to be addressed later in the draft.

I don't have time to do it, but I would be very curious to know two things about starters along the interior OL in the NFL. The less interesting question is,

'how many of them were day 1 selections? When did they tend to be drafted? How does that compare to other positions?'

More interestingly: 'how many of them are playing while on their first contract? how does their average age compare to the average starting age at other positions?

I'm playing around with the opinion that its a position which benefits from old man strength more than sudden explosive strength, and that it relies a great deal on consistency and technical proficiency. While you will have your elite young guards, generally speaking I could believe that OL play might peak at a later age than most positions because of both these factors. I could believe that a Joe Berger would have been liable to give the Vikings better (or comparable) production on a 'win now' basis than most of the Guards drafted in the first or second round this year. Just to take a random example, Vlad Ducasse was pretty rough when he was on the Vikings, but at 30 he's still in the league, and he's still starting. That tells you something. Take it for what its worth, but PFF has him ranked as the 24th best G in a league which has 64 starting Guards. Tom Compton could possibly be in that mold. He's 29, and has had several years of experience to hone his physical and technical game. In all likelihood he is not going to be the next Joe Berger for the Vikings, but it is possible that given the chance he would perform better than most of the players selected in the last 2 or 3 drafts, even those who are without doubt more talented.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Cliff » Tue May 15, 2018 8:27 am

This combination of coaching staff/front office have done a lot well. Producing a good offensive line hasn't been one of those things so I think questioning their moves is pretty valid. I'm much more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when picking a CB ...

There is an argument to be made that when the line was at it's worst the team had been decimated by injury. I wonder if Spielman views that as the reason the line was bad rather than his philosophy.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by mansquatch » Tue May 15, 2018 8:39 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:46 pm
Just to be clear, when I said we didn't need a tackle that was with Remmers at RT. The tackles were picked over, and the Guards were still available. My statement is about selecting a guard because that is what had the highest upside of what was left.

Bench strength is about upper body strength. Blocking on the line uses primarily lower body strength. Not saying Oniell won't be a stud but Even with him, both guard positions in Remmers and Easton should be upgraded.

You really need to watch some cowboys games and see what a good oline looks like. You build a team from the line back. When choosing between a stud CB and a Stud Olineman, I will take lineman every day.
That fantastic Cowboy's OL hasn't won a playoff game since 2014. FYI. I'd argue you build a team QB first, but that's just like my opinion man.

I would remind everyone hammering on the first round pick that your conclusions are based on the Draft Grades provided by so-called media draft experts. Note that it wasn't just the Vikings who did not pick those guards, so did every other team that passed them up. many of which were playoff teams. This might imply that the grades from the experts were not so great? Don't those guys miss more often than they hit anyways? Might be worth reviewing the foundation of the case being made here. Seems to me like it's a bit soft...
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by fiestavike » Tue May 15, 2018 8:43 am

Cliff wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:27 am
This combination of coaching staff/front office have done a lot well. Producing a good offensive line hasn't been one of those things so I think questioning their moves is pretty valid. I'm much more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when picking a CB ...

There is an argument to be made that when the line was at it's worst the team had been decimated by injury. I wonder if Spielman views that as the reason the line was bad rather than his philosophy.
That's a good point. Even if their philosophy were sound (and it may be) they have not executed well over the years in implementing it. This is to say, they haven't hit on late round picks, and they haven't brought in journeymen who have turned out to be successful with much consistency (although sometimes they have just failed to retain the right players [Remmers the first time, Ducasse, Sullivan (?)]). Last year they got good contributions from one premier FA (Reiff), two journeymen (Remmers, Berger), a mid round pick (Elflein) and a couple players who had spent 3 years or so maturing and developing (Easton, Hill). If I had to choose a player to come out of nowhere and start at RG, I'm going to stick with Josh Andrews. He's 26 and 4 years on the Eagles practice squad is a long time. That's a huge advantage over anybody coming into the NFL, especially if they aren't coming from one of the few programs that prepares OL for the NFL game.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by mansquatch » Tue May 15, 2018 8:44 am

Mothman wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:53 am
Over the years, he's shown a strong willingness to settle for mediocrity or worse at guard so I believe his track record makes a rather compelling case. I think it's likely we're seeing a specific philosophy at work rather than a general philosophy. A GM who doesn't believe guard is a position worth selecting in the first day or two of the draft probably isn't going to pull the trigger on a guard that early no matter who is available.



Perhaps but the point I'm making is how strongly he may have felt about the need or the guard prospects is tied directly to how he views the position in the first place and he doesn't appear to sufficiently value it. In other words, put him in that same situation 10 times and I'm guessing he'd draft other positions every time.



Again, I think their history suggests otherwise. It's no more important to protect the big investment in Cousins than it was to provide good protection for his predecessors but we've seen Spielman put makeshift or undermanned lines in front of his QBs throughout his tenure as GM.

Sorry, I just can't give him the benefit of the doubt on this. I don't think he's earned it.
I'm sorry but did they not just produced a #2 seed team last year? Also, they made significant OL investments going into 2017. I still can't understand all the negativity on this. They got better at both QB and DT this offseason, they probably got a bit worse at OG and now suddenly the sky is falling? Really? let me say that again: They got better at QB!

I understood the skepticism last year they had gone 8-8 and the OL was major culprit. But 2017 wasn't 2016, yet the comments on here sound like we just went 8-8 again.

Did I miss something?
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by fiestavike » Tue May 15, 2018 8:54 am

mansquatch wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:44 am


Did I miss something?
Yes, you missed the fact that they haven't had a good offensive line in a decade, and have a very poor track record of addressing the position successfully. The moves they made last year worked relatively well, but even those were born of desperation because of how badly they had addressed the position for years before that.

You are reading the wrong things into the frustration many people have about the way they have handled that position, and their consistent failure to invest meaninfully in it.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue May 15, 2018 11:06 am

mansquatch wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:39 am
That fantastic Cowboy's OL hasn't won a playoff game since 2014. FYI. I'd argue you build a team QB first, but that's just like my opinion man.

I would remind everyone hammering on the first round pick that your conclusions are based on the Draft Grades provided by so-called media draft experts. Note that it wasn't just the Vikings who did not pick those guards, so did every other team that passed them up. many of which were playoff teams. This might imply that the grades from the experts were not so great? Don't those guys miss more often than they hit anyways? Might be worth reviewing the foundation of the case being made here. Seems to me like it's a bit soft...
Exactly. It comes down to fans being ticked over us not drafting Hernandez or Daniels. Again, guard wasnt a glaring hole if they plan on putting Remmers there. That would mean OT has a glaring hole and we addressed it in the 2nd round. Guys gotta get past this whole Hernandez thing. We've never seen the guy play but Spielman was pretty much clueless for not drafting him is how some of us are acting. I'm not worried about the OL. It isnt great, but it's certainly not bad. It's a decent OL IMO with some solid depth.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by mansquatch » Tue May 15, 2018 12:05 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:54 am
Yes, you missed the fact that they haven't had a good offensive line in a decade, and have a very poor track record of addressing the position successfully. The moves they made last year worked relatively well, but even those were born of desperation because of how badly they had addressed the position for years before that.

You are reading the wrong things into the frustration many people have about the way they have handled that position, and their consistent failure to invest meaninfully in it.
You guys said all this last year and were all predicting another 8 win or worse season. Then the roster started Case Keenum for 15 games and won 12 of those games. So to be blunt, I think you are all out to lunch. All offseason there was a constant drum beat to can Spielman while guys like me and PHP were saying "hey wait a minute, this team could be really good." Turns out we were right.

Now they didn't draft a guard, but signed a legit DT and top 10 starting QB and here we are again back on the "Rick Sucks Bus."
Well, I don't want to ride the bus! How does a GM suck when his team started a back up QB (CASE FREAKING KEENUM?!?!?!) for 15 games and went to the NFC Championship game? Why after a 13 win season are we going to suddenly fall off our rocker because Joe Berger retired? Honestly, why?

This goes hand in hand to my response to the outrage post that cited Dallas as an example of how to built an OL. No one disagrees that Dallas has done a great job building the best OL in the NFL. But my point in response is quite salient to both his rumblings and those that have followed: They haven't won a playoff game behind that OL since 2014. So I have to question the premise. Quite simply: the team with the best OL doesn't win playoff games very often. Why might that be? Could it be roster balance? QB play? The Viking with a worse OL won 13 games last year? How come?

We are returning 4 out of 5 starters on OL, a group that wasn't bad last season. Is losing Joe Berger such a critical loss that now Cousins can't play QB? Is Dalvin Cook going to suddenly be 1/2 the RB he was last year because of losing Joe Berger? Is Adam Thielen going to stop catching passes? Is our Defense going to suddenly fall out of bed and play like Dom Capers is our DC (heh!) because Joe Berger retire?

I know it sounds completely asinine, that is the point, that is absurd position you guys are effectively taking. We have a hole at RG, now we suck. And who got rid of the vomit emoji???
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by fiestavike » Tue May 15, 2018 12:37 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:05 pm
You guys said all this last year and were all predicting another 8 win or worse season. Then the roster started Case Keenum for 15 games and won 12 of those games. So to be blunt, I think you are all out to lunch. All offseason there was a constant drum beat to can Spielman while guys like me and PHP were saying "hey wait a minute, this team could be really good." Turns out we were right.

Now they didn't draft a guard, but signed a legit DT and top 10 starting QB and here we are again back on the "Rick Sucks Bus."
Well, I don't want to ride the bus! How does a GM suck when his team started a back up QB (CASE FREAKING KEENUM?!?!?!) for 15 games and went to the NFC Championship game? Why after a 13 win season are we going to suddenly fall off our rocker because Joe Berger retired? Honestly, why?

This goes hand in hand to my response to the outrage post that cited Dallas as an example of how to built an OL. No one disagrees that Dallas has done a great job building the best OL in the NFL. But my point in response is quite salient to both his rumblings and those that have followed: They haven't won a playoff game behind that OL since 2014. So I have to question the premise. Quite simply: the team with the best OL doesn't win playoff games very often. Why might that be? Could it be roster balance? QB play? The Viking with a worse OL won 13 games last year? How come?

We are returning 4 out of 5 starters on OL, a group that wasn't bad last season. Is losing Joe Berger such a critical loss that now Cousins can't play QB? Is Dalvin Cook going to suddenly be 1/2 the RB he was last year because of losing Joe Berger? Is Adam Thielen going to stop catching passes? Is our Defense going to suddenly fall out of bed and play like Dom Capers is our DC (heh!) because Joe Berger retire?

I know it sounds completely asinine, that is the point, that is absurd position you guys are effectively taking. We have a hole at RG, now we suck. And who got rid of the vomit emoji???
I don't think whoever all you are including in 'you guys' are of one mind, or that anyone is saying 'we suck' (or half of the other positions you have attributed to us). To be frank, I think the level of discourse you are offering here is shabby and not worthy of engaging with.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue May 15, 2018 1:08 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:05 pm
You guys said all this last year and were all predicting another 8 win or worse season. Then the roster started Case Keenum for 15 games and won 12 of those games. So to be blunt, I think you are all out to lunch. All offseason there was a constant drum beat to can Spielman while guys like me and PHP were saying "hey wait a minute, this team could be really good." Turns out we were right.

Now they didn't draft a guard, but signed a legit DT and top 10 starting QB and here we are again back on the "Rick Sucks Bus."
Well, I don't want to ride the bus! How does a GM suck when his team started a back up QB (CASE FREAKING KEENUM?!?!?!) for 15 games and went to the NFC Championship game? Why after a 13 win season are we going to suddenly fall off our rocker because Joe Berger retired? Honestly, why?

This goes hand in hand to my response to the outrage post that cited Dallas as an example of how to built an OL. No one disagrees that Dallas has done a great job building the best OL in the NFL. But my point in response is quite salient to both his rumblings and those that have followed: They haven't won a playoff game behind that OL since 2014. So I have to question the premise. Quite simply: the team with the best OL doesn't win playoff games very often. Why might that be? Could it be roster balance? QB play? The Viking with a worse OL won 13 games last year? How come?

We are returning 4 out of 5 starters on OL, a group that wasn't bad last season. Is losing Joe Berger such a critical loss that now Cousins can't play QB? Is Dalvin Cook going to suddenly be 1/2 the RB he was last year because of losing Joe Berger? Is Adam Thielen going to stop catching passes? Is our Defense going to suddenly fall out of bed and play like Dom Capers is our DC (heh!) because Joe Berger retire?

I know it sounds completely asinine, that is the point, that is absurd position you guys are effectively taking. We have a hole at RG, now we suck. And who got rid of the vomit emoji???
:puke: Its there still :lol: Just to add onto this, not only was it the "lets can Spielman" bus that boarded up last offseason but also the "lets can Zimmer" bus as well if you remember. Yes, the Dallas example is awful and quite honestly, proves nothing. Dont be surprised if Dallas fans are saying "well if we didnt invest so much in our OL, we would have a defense worth a damn". I also remember everyone saying how awful Rick is finding QBs and such and never has a good backup. He gets an amazing backup that nearly led us to the SB and then follows it up this year by landing Cousins and a backup that has started quite a few games in this league. I also remember hearing he "blatantly ignores the OL". Signing two big FAs, spending a 3rd round pick last year and a 2nd this year sure sounds like he ignores the OL alright.

Bottom line is, nobody is ever going to be pleased until we win a SB but I will say that Rick Spielman is a good GM, Mike Zimmer is a good HC and this team is very good. I will not be on this bus either. I have full confidence in this front office, staff and team. It's exciting to be a Vikings fan right now. Enjoy it. Overall, good post mansquatch
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by S197 » Tue May 15, 2018 1:50 pm

At the end of the day, Spielman's job is tied to Cousins. If Cousins flops, Spielman will be gone. Doesn't matter if that's fair, how he built the roster, etc., that's what will happen. So if Spielman misjudged the strength of the OL and Cousins doesn't have any protection, he's basically sealed his own fate. Conversely, if Cousins performs as he should, no one will care about Hernandez/Daniels in a couple months.

I also don't see a "we suck" attitude, if anything there's criticism but it seems fair with supporting arguments. I've been a relative big fan of Spielman, the post-draft thoughts from prior years are out there for anyone who wants to look them up. And 2016 is shaping up to be a poor draft so he it isn't like he's been stellar year in and year out. Overall I think he's done a good job, a very good job in fact, but I think there's still areas that need to be worked on. One of my biggest gripes about Spielman is he never drafts a backup QB. The last one was John David Booty eons ago. And he followed that MO again this year. It's nice we have Siemian, he's a serviceable backup, but he's also only here for a year and this was by most accounts a very deep QB draft class.

You can probably add placing a low priority on interior lineman to being a similar MO to QB. In essence the two positions have been treated very much the same. When there's an absolute need, we'll draft a guy or splash in free agency, but it's rarely forward looking to me. We should be looking beyond just starters because that's where on occasion you find guys like Kirk Cousins.
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