Vikings Message Board.Com

Pondering Her Percy wrote:I get what you're saying Cliff. That's my fault. I guess it's just frustrating when you have a fan come at you with something they've researched next to nothing on. And it isnt the first time. While I'm pulling out in-depth statistics, providing reasoning, etc., he comes out with "you make no sense" and "he's a bust". But that reasoning is suppose to make sense? It's just that if you're going to throw that word "bust" out there, at least back it up, make sense of it, research, something. The dude is going to crap out feathers if he eats any more crow within the year.

And those in-depth statistics, reasoning, etc. are great to read and discuss but it's not always possible to get someone to see it your way (or even in a way that you think is logical) sometimes you just have to move on. I think everyone has people that they routinely just don't see eye to eye with and rather than trying to *make* them understand perhaps it's best to just scroll over them.

Make your comments and show your analytics but also realize your audience is more than the one or two people. This topic has been viewed 665 times as of this post by between 75-100 people and this is the off season. Not everyone will agree with you and sometimes they might even disagree for reasons you think are silly but so what? There are enough people around that you can have more constructive conversations with if that's the case.

In the end, those kinds of frustrated interactions end up clouding your (often good) points.

Cliff wrote:I thought Jarius Wright had pretty good game but he hasn't been able to translate that into a full time role. The fact is he's gotten 29 receptions for 265 yards and 3 TDs in the last *two* seasons and we're not going to miss his production because it was basically non-existent. You know what you've got in Jarius after 6 seasons.

Treadwell needs to get on the field more and he's going into year 3 which is the generally agreed upon time frame for a WR. Also - Treadwell is super young. I saw a stat (that I can't find verification of) that Treadwell was the 9th youngest WR *in 2017*. He’s 22 years old. Every other player drafted by the Vikings in 2016 is 2-3 years older than him, by comparison. The average age for a WR to have peak (very good) seasons is 25-29 according to an article I found on the subject.

Another reason why we dont just "get rid of him". I've said it before and I'll say it again, a BUST is a player that has been given PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITY to showcase his talents and has failed. For example:

Christian Ponder. Drafted 12th overall in 2011. Started 38 games for the Vikings in 4 years. Failed miserably.

Troy Williamson. Drafted 7th overall in 2005. Started 39 games for the Vikings in 3 years. Dropped balls constantly, failed miserably.

Jamarcus Russell. Drafted 1st overall in 2007. Started 31 games for the Raiders in 3 years. Failed miserably.


......As for Laquon Treadwell. Drafted 23rd overall in 2016. Started 9 games for the Vikings in 2 years. Hasnt done good, hasnt done bad due to lack of playing time for obvious reasons. He would've been a guaranteed starter if it wasnt for the emergence of Thielen.


Giant difference there. The busts I listed have all started 30+ games in 3+ years and were handed a starting role from the start. Treadwell was never handed a starting role, only started 9 games and has only been in the NFL for two years.

Wright signing with Carolina

Cliff wrote:

Pondering Her Percy wrote:I get what you're saying Cliff. That's my fault. I guess it's just frustrating when you have a fan come at you with something they've researched next to nothing on. And it isnt the first time. While I'm pulling out in-depth statistics, providing reasoning, etc., he comes out with "you make no sense" and "he's a bust". But that reasoning is suppose to make sense? It's just that if you're going to throw that word "bust" out there, at least back it up, make sense of it, research, something. The dude is going to crap out feathers if he eats any more crow within the year.

And those in-depth statistics, reasoning, etc. are great to read and discuss but it's not always possible to get someone to see it your way (or even in a way that you think is logical) sometimes you just have to move on. I think everyone has people that they routinely just don't see eye to eye with and rather than trying to *make* them understand perhaps it's best to just scroll over them.

Make your comments and show your analytics but also realize your audience is more than the one or two people. This topic has been viewed 665 times as of this post by between 75-100 people and this is the off season. Not everyone will agree with you and sometimes they might even disagree for reasons you think are silly but so what? There are enough people around that you can have more constructive conversations with if that's the case.

In the end, those kinds of frustrated interactions end up clouding your (often good) points.

Pondering Her Percy wrote:

Cliff wrote:

Pondering Her Percy wrote:This is just another classic PK comment. You continue to just look at the surface of things. Never research, never look in-depth, never try to find the "why", just always judging a book by it's cover.

Keep the conversation to the topic and not what you think about someone or their posting style. Nobody is forcing you to take him seriously or even read his posts at all so there's no need for the personal comments.

I get what you're saying Cliff. That's my fault. I guess it's just frustrating when you have a fan come at you with something they've researched next to nothing on. And it isnt the first time. While I'm pulling out in-depth statistics, providing reasoning, etc., he comes out with "you make no sense" and "he's a bust". But that reasoning is suppose to make sense? It's just that if you're going to throw that word "bust" out there, at least back it up, make sense of it, research, something. The dude is going to crap out feathers if he eats any more crow within the year.

God dam, are you ever full of yourself.

PurpleKoolaid wrote:...

I've commented on what he said. Enough.

dead_poet wrote:Wright signing with Carolina

I seen that...Norv picked him up.
I will be sorry to see him leave.

Thanks for all your hard work Cliff.

Pondering Her Percy wrote:I still have a lot of confidence in Treadwell. With Diggs and Thielen being very capable to work out of the slot, I'd like to see Treadwell on the outside more this year. Agreed, we need to draft one in the middle rounds but overall, I know Treadwell can ball. He showed it in college. It's just hard to get an opportunity right now with Diggs and Thielen in front of him. I imagine Flip will find a way to utilize him this year.

I agree, I think Treadwell is going to have a much better year. Kirk is 10 times the thrower case was, with a stronger arm and deep ball accuracy. Zimmer had said multiple times lately that he believes Treadwell need to get outta his own way. He works out too hard before games and gets tired apparently.

It would be nice if Treadwell had a Sidney Rice type of third year. Maybe not quite the same production given who is in front of him but I think they are similar receivers in that they're bigger WR's who aren't going to outrun you but perhaps can out body/jump you.

I guess what I'm saying is there is precedent to go from underperforming to carving out a big role in year three with a new QB. I don't know if that'll happen or not but it wouldn't be the first time.

As for Wright, I wish him well but I think one of Coley/Jones/Zylstra can provide a similar role. What we really need is a bonafide #3 option, not a guy that catches 11-18 passes a year. That's a fine role to have at a rookie pay scale or vet minimum, but not at $2.5M-$3M.

S197 wrote:It would be nice if Treadwell had a Sidney Rice type of third year. Maybe not quite the same production given who is in front of him but I think they are similar receivers in that they're bigger WR's who aren't going to outrun you but perhaps can out body/jump you.

I guess what I'm saying is there is precedent to go from underperforming to carving out a big role in year three with a new QB. I don't know if that'll happen or not but it wouldn't be the first time.

As for Wright, I wish him well but I think one of Coley/Jones/Zylstra can provide a similar role. What we really need is a bonafide #3 option, not a guy that catches 11-18 passes a year. That's a fine role to have at a rookie pay scale or vet minimum, but not at $2.5M-$3M.

Wasn't Rice the de facto "#1" receiver though? If Treadwell was on, say, the Ravens, he'd have a much easier time at production. As it stands he has a legit shot at more snaps, but with two top-15 WRs ahead of him I'm not sure what is realistic. I'd think 40-50 catches would be as much as he could get as the third option playing, what, 60-70% of the snaps?

dead_poet wrote:

S197 wrote:It would be nice if Treadwell had a Sidney Rice type of third year. Maybe not quite the same production given who is in front of him but I think they are similar receivers in that they're bigger WR's who aren't going to outrun you but perhaps can out body/jump you.

I guess what I'm saying is there is precedent to go from underperforming to carving out a big role in year three with a new QB. I don't know if that'll happen or not but it wouldn't be the first time.

As for Wright, I wish him well but I think one of Coley/Jones/Zylstra can provide a similar role. What we really need is a bonafide #3 option, not a guy that catches 11-18 passes a year. That's a fine role to have at a rookie pay scale or vet minimum, but not at $2.5M-$3M.

Wasn't Rice the de facto "#1" receiver though? If Treadwell was on, say, the Ravens, he'd have a much easier time at production. As it stands he has a legit shot at more snaps, but with two top-15 WRs ahead of him I'm not sure what is realistic. I'd think 40-50 catches would be as much as he could get as the third option playing, what, 60-70% of the snaps?

I don't know if Rice was the #1 but he was either one or two. So Treadwell is unlikely to hit similar production, I'm just saying that there's precedent for a guy who hasn't lived up to expectations to hit their stride in year 3. And I think both Rice and Treadwell have similar skill sets in that both are bigger receivers that aren't very fast but can likely go up and win contested passes.

S197 wrote:It would be nice if Treadwell had a Sidney Rice type of third year. Maybe not quite the same production given who is in front of him but I think they are similar receivers in that they're bigger WR's who aren't going to outrun you but perhaps can out body/jump you.

I guess what I'm saying is there is precedent to go from underperforming to carving out a big role in year three with a new QB. I don't know if that'll happen or not but it wouldn't be the first time.

As for Wright, I wish him well but I think one of Coley/Jones/Zylstra can provide a similar role. What we really need is a bonafide #3 option, not a guy that catches 11-18 passes a year. That's a fine role to have at a rookie pay scale or vet minimum, but not at $2.5M-$3M.

Yeah I can definitely see coley being able to do what Wright did and more. Agreed on Treadwell. There’s no doubt in my mind that he has the skills. But if anyone expects he’s going to go for 1000 yards and 8 tds, I’ll call you crazy because of what’s in front of him. It’s just an unfortunate situation for him. He’s a guaranteed starter if Thielen didn’t exist. And we probably wouldn’t be discussing this right now. Just with his one handed catch alone that shows he has a lot of skill. Making a catch like that so easily with a guy all over him is extremely hard to do. He’s never going to surpass Thielen or diggs unless they are hurt or not on the team. The guy just got a bad draw if you ask me. I’d love to see him make the most of his opportunities this year. He will definitely have a better QB so we’ll see but I like the kid. You aren’t just the best WR in college football, playing in that conference no less and don’t have any skill.

Well with Diggs injury history Treadwell will get some opportunities. Let's hope he makes the best of them. He'll also get chances in those 3 receiver sets. I hope he can come through cause defenses will be primed to stop Thielen in them. He needs to be able to beat the one on ones he sure to get.

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germannorseman wrote:Well with Diggs injury history Treadwell will get some opportunities. Let's hope he makes the best of them. He'll also get chances in those 3 receiver sets. I hope he can come through cause defenses will be primed to stop Thielen in them. He needs to be able to beat the one on ones he sure to get.

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Agreed. It's tough though because I remember specifically this year when Treadwell was wide open on a couple of plays where Case failed to throw him the ball. He toasted his guy on a double move vs. Baltimore and had nobody in front of him downfield. Also against Washington he was wide open in the back of the endzone but Case threw the quick out to Diggs instead. I would say Kirk sees the field a lot better than Case does so hopefully we see some change there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SElT590QmTY vs. Washington. Play is at 2:01. Treadwell is top of the screen

I cant find the baltimore clip but I remember he threw to either Diggs or Thielen on an under route and Treadwell was over the top open

S197 wrote:It would be nice if Treadwell had a Sidney Rice type of third year. Maybe not quite the same production given who is in front of him but I think they are similar receivers in that they're bigger WR's who aren't going to outrun you but perhaps can out body/jump you.

I guess what I'm saying is there is precedent to go from underperforming to carving out a big role in year three with a new QB. I don't know if that'll happen or not but it wouldn't be the first time.

As for Wright, I wish him well but I think one of Coley/Jones/Zylstra can provide a similar role. What we really need is a bonafide #3 option, not a guy that catches 11-18 passes a year. That's a fine role to have at a rookie pay scale or vet minimum, but not at $2.5M-$3M.

It would be ideal wouldn't it?

The thing is, Rice actually showed *something* during his first two years. He had nearly 8 TDs on limited playing time in 2007 and 2008. It is fair to say Rice was our most talented WR in 2007, and probably 2008 behind Bernard Berrian. Nevertheless, he rarely saw the field due to mismanagement on part of Brad Childress and Darrell Bevel. Thank God Favre was smart enough to realize what a game wrecker Rice could be.

The problem is Sidney Rice was higher second round draft pick - not a first round pick. Who knows. Maybe Treadwell can do something this year? I hope so. However, for every Sidney Rice break out season there are many more 'Troy Williamson's' who just never pan out.

For the record, I really, really wanted Myles Jack two years ago. But I would get laughed at by other posters because he wasn't a 'need.' Boy, wouldn't he be something on our defense now?