Time to move on from Waynes

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YikesVikes
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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:51 pm

Also, I said

"I have been championing the Vikes moving on from Waynes a long time. His instincts are horrible, his play speed is terrible and he is easily beaten. I think he has tons of natural talent that he simply doesn't use. I do not believe that he has the heart to be a starter for this team and until we move on from him, he's going to continue to get beat like a rug in a preschool snack area (dirty). He's under contract but this team needs to make a run at a corner to stabilize that left side. We have a huge need at NT and I would like us to go after WIll Hernandez (OG UTEP) in the draft but.... I can't tak another season of him getting beat, the WR dropping the ball and him celebrating like he made the play."

I never said to cut him. I said we need to move on from him.

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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:22 pm

YikesVikes wrote:When you start describing a CBs strengths with "he's good in run support"
Not saying run support isn't important but geez. Give me a technical break down of his skills set in coverage or something.
I would wager that he isn't average in coverage. Our disagreement is that I believe that he won't hit his potential (if he ever). Our pass rush hides a lot of his inconsistencies and result in over and underthrows by opposing QBs. When they pass rush doesn't get there, he's burnt toast more often than not.
:deadhorse:
Our pass rush crapped the bed towards the end of the year. And that’s when Waynes showed improvement. Good excuse though! I applaud the effort. And he’s not “burnt toast”. If he was he’d be giving up a lot of YAC which he’s not. You have no argument right now. Why do you keep fighting it?
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Rhodes Closed
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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by Rhodes Closed » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:25 pm

I'd just like to point out that Trae Waynes, when in man-to-man coverage last year, allowed a passer rating of 21.8.

To put that into context, Marshawn Lattimore allowed 42.1 last year.

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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:26 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
YikesVikes wrote:When you start describing a CBs strengths with "he's good in run support"
Not saying run support isn't important but geez. Give me a technical break down of his skills set in coverage or something.
I would wager that he isn't average in coverage. Our disagreement is that I believe that he won't hit his potential (if he ever). Our pass rush hides a lot of his inconsistencies and result in over and underthrows by opposing QBs. When they pass rush doesn't get there, he's burnt toast more often than not.
:deadhorse:
Our pass rush crapped the bed towards the end of the year. And that’s when Waynes showed improvement. Good excuse though! I applaud the effort. And he’s not “burnt toast”. If he was he’d be giving up a lot of YAC which he’s not. You have no argument right now. Why do you keep fighting it?
Did they? Lol.
Ponder and Kalil. You're excuses are vaguely familiar. I'm sure you were champion that they were breaking thru too.

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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:28 pm

Rhodes Closed wrote:I'd just like to point out that Trae Waynes, when in man-to-man coverage last year, allowed a passer rating of 21.8.

To put that into context, Marshawn Lattimore allowed 42.1 last year.
PPF is notoriously wrong when they try to track coverages for DBs and protections for Olinemen. You might as well throw those away. They are always way off. I used to be a paid patron and used thier figures religiously.

But I will make this even simpler. Would you take a trade of Waynes for Lattimore straight up?

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Rhodes Closed
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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by Rhodes Closed » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:43 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Rhodes Closed wrote:I'd just like to point out that Trae Waynes, when in man-to-man coverage last year, allowed a passer rating of 21.8.

To put that into context, Marshawn Lattimore allowed 42.1 last year.
PPF is notoriously wrong when they try to track coverages for DBs and protections for Olinemen. You might as well throw those away. They are always way off. I used to be a paid patron and used thier figures religiously.

But I will make this even simpler. Would you take a trade of Waynes for Lattimore straight up?
Nope. I'd keep Waynes and watch him progress even further, like is going to happen under Zimmer, because he's ****ing Mike Zimmer.

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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:40 pm

Rhodes Closed wrote:
YikesVikes wrote:
Rhodes Closed wrote:I'd just like to point out that Trae Waynes, when in man-to-man coverage last year, allowed a passer rating of 21.8.

To put that into context, Marshawn Lattimore allowed 42.1 last year.
PPF is notoriously wrong when they try to track coverages for DBs and protections for Olinemen. You might as well throw those away. They are always way off. I used to be a paid patron and used thier figures religiously.

But I will make this even simpler. Would you take a trade of Waynes for Lattimore straight up?
Nope. I'd keep Waynes and watch him progress even further, like is going to happen under Zimmer, because he's ****ing Mike Zimmer.
What about Zimmer getting his hands on Lattimore?

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Rhodes Closed
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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by Rhodes Closed » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:55 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
What about Zimmer getting his hands on Lattimore?
Lattimore would cost too much. Having both him and Rhodes would be an expensive endeavor that would be a black hole of money better spent if we theoretically traded for and re-signed him in 2022. We'd have to give up the farm to even get Lattimore anyways. No thanks. I'm certainly glad you're not the GM.

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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:57 pm

We do have a few issues on D, wont go into them here because a few will disagree with me, but I dont see Waynes as being part of the problems. He is learning to cover better every year. He has an instinct around the LOS, stuffs the run, takes on blockers if he doesnt make the tackle. He doesnt look lost in coverage like his first few years, and uses his speed to his advantage, not just because he was late on a play. You dont move on from a player thats getting better. You however may want to see if a trade can be made for someone that was supposed to be a superstar but isnt, and will demand an insane amount of money. Which we couldnt afford anyways if we get Cousins.

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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:26 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote:We do have a few issues on D, wont go into them here because a few will disagree with me, but I dont see Waynes as being part of the problems. He is learning to cover better every year. He has an instinct around the LOS, stuffs the run, takes on blockers if he doesnt make the tackle. He doesnt look lost in coverage like his first few years, and uses his speed to his advantage, not just because he was late on a play. You dont move on from a player thats getting better. You however may want to see if a trade can be made for someone that was supposed to be a superstar but isnt, and will demand an insane amount of money. Which we couldnt afford anyways if we get Cousins.
I think he isnt going to get better. Great in run support but he will always be a guy a step late. With that said, my move on form him means drafting a cb and grooming them to replace him. If he improves, so be it. If he doesn't, we aren't caught flat-footed like post-Winfield.

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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:30 pm

Rhodes Closed wrote:
YikesVikes wrote:
What about Zimmer getting his hands on Lattimore?
Lattimore would cost too much. Having both him and Rhodes would be an expensive endeavor that would be a black hole of money better spent if we theoretically traded for and re-signed him in 2022. We'd have to give up the farm to even get Lattimore anyways. No thanks. I'm certainly glad you're not the GM.
I believe I said a straight up trade (not saying if they would do it or not, simply would you take him over Waynes). The point is, we can substantially improve this position via drafting. I believe I have seen enough to gauge his potential. Lattimore was a rookie. Not sure why he would cost more than 11th overall (if I remember right) Waynes.

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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by Rhodes Closed » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:34 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
PurpleKoolaid wrote:We do have a few issues on D, wont go into them here because a few will disagree with me, but I dont see Waynes as being part of the problems. He is learning to cover better every year. He has an instinct around the LOS, stuffs the run, takes on blockers if he doesnt make the tackle. He doesnt look lost in coverage like his first few years, and uses his speed to his advantage, not just because he was late on a play. You dont move on from a player thats getting better. You however may want to see if a trade can be made for someone that was supposed to be a superstar but isnt, and will demand an insane amount of money. Which we couldnt afford anyways if we get Cousins.
I think he isnt going to get better. Great in run support but he will always be a guy a step late. With that said, my move on form him means drafting a cb and grooming them to replace him. If he improves, so be it. If he doesn't, we aren't caught flat-footed like post-Winfield.
We still aren't flat-footed though. We still have Mackensie Alexander, who's looking to improve upon a rocky last year, and then a duo of Sherels and Newman, who are still okay, even if they'll never be great again (or in the case of Sherels, never was great). We have a squad of one incredible Cornerback, and about 5 of them with a minor flaw or whatnot. Not to mention we're likely drafting a cornerback in the later rounds, we'll be fine.

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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:43 pm

Another thing on Waynes i would love to see....he becomes our KR man from day one. This guy is so dam athetic, well balanced, and faster then the speed of light. It would take some time to train him, but not many are going to catch up to him if he can hit the crease just right. Now Im not saying I am a Waynes man, I used to dislike him for a few reasons. But he listened to his coaches and learned! I like how he has improived every season. Sure he makes mistakes. We got used to Rhodes who, other then the last few games of this season, was damn near perfect.

Waynes is one guy who put KR back into the limelight in MN since Patterson left. I really think he could be that special. AND he can tackle, and shred blockers. You need to find another player to hate one.

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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:28 am

PurpleKoolaid wrote:We do have a few issues on D, wont go into them here because a few will disagree with me, but I dont see Waynes as being part of the problems. He is learning to cover better every year. He has an instinct around the LOS, stuffs the run, takes on blockers if he doesnt make the tackle. He doesnt look lost in coverage like his first few years, and uses his speed to his advantage, not just because he was late on a play. You dont move on from a player thats getting better. You however may want to see if a trade can be made for someone that was supposed to be a superstar but isnt, and will demand an insane amount of money. Which we couldnt afford anyways if we get Cousins.
^and that’s coming from someone that literally could not stand Trae Waynes but is willing enough to admit that he has made huge gains this year. Soak that one in
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Re: Time to move on from Waynes

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:34 am

YikesVikes wrote:
PurpleKoolaid wrote:We do have a few issues on D, wont go into them here because a few will disagree with me, but I dont see Waynes as being part of the problems. He is learning to cover better every year. He has an instinct around the LOS, stuffs the run, takes on blockers if he doesnt make the tackle. He doesnt look lost in coverage like his first few years, and uses his speed to his advantage, not just because he was late on a play. You dont move on from a player thats getting better. You however may want to see if a trade can be made for someone that was supposed to be a superstar but isnt, and will demand an insane amount of money. Which we couldnt afford anyways if we get Cousins.
I think he isnt going to get better. Great in run support but he will always be a guy a step late. With that said, my move on form him means drafting a cb and grooming them to replace him. If he improves, so be it. If he doesn't, we aren't caught flat-footed like post-Winfield.
First of all, this defense will never suffer from “post Winfield” syndrome as long as Zimmer is here. Zim doesn’t have bad CBs on his D.....ever. And he revives vets like pac man and Newman. Second, there you go saying you “think” he won’t improve. Well, he already has. Each and every year. So there is zero reason to think he’s going to take a step back. Again, you’re arguing something you’re never going to win. ~20% passer rating when thrown to in man coverage and you’re still sitting here saying he’s not good. Come on dude. Seriously?
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