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 Time to move on from Waynes 
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
Also, I said

"I have been championing the Vikes moving on from Waynes a long time. His instincts are horrible, his play speed is terrible and he is easily beaten. I think he has tons of natural talent that he simply doesn't use. I do not believe that he has the heart to be a starter for this team and until we move on from him, he's going to continue to get beat like a rug in a preschool snack area (dirty). He's under contract but this team needs to make a run at a corner to stabilize that left side. We have a huge need at NT and I would like us to go after WIll Hernandez (OG UTEP) in the draft but.... I can't tak another season of him getting beat, the WR dropping the ball and him celebrating like he made the play."

I never said to cut him. I said we need to move on from him.


Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:51 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
YikesVikes wrote:
When you start describing a CBs strengths with "he's good in run support"
Not saying run support isn't important but geez. Give me a technical break down of his skills set in coverage or something.
I would wager that he isn't average in coverage. Our disagreement is that I believe that he won't hit his potential (if he ever). Our pass rush hides a lot of his inconsistencies and result in over and underthrows by opposing QBs. When they pass rush doesn't get there, he's burnt toast more often than not.
:deadhorse:


Our pass rush crapped the bed towards the end of the year. And that’s when Waynes showed improvement. Good excuse though! I applaud the effort. And he’s not “burnt toast”. If he was he’d be giving up a lot of YAC which he’s not. You have no argument right now. Why do you keep fighting it?

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Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:22 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
I'd just like to point out that Trae Waynes, when in man-to-man coverage last year, allowed a passer rating of 21.8.

To put that into context, Marshawn Lattimore allowed 42.1 last year.


Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:25 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
YikesVikes wrote:
When you start describing a CBs strengths with "he's good in run support"
Not saying run support isn't important but geez. Give me a technical break down of his skills set in coverage or something.
I would wager that he isn't average in coverage. Our disagreement is that I believe that he won't hit his potential (if he ever). Our pass rush hides a lot of his inconsistencies and result in over and underthrows by opposing QBs. When they pass rush doesn't get there, he's burnt toast more often than not.
:deadhorse:


Our pass rush crapped the bed towards the end of the year. And that’s when Waynes showed improvement. Good excuse though! I applaud the effort. And he’s not “burnt toast”. If he was he’d be giving up a lot of YAC which he’s not. You have no argument right now. Why do you keep fighting it?


Did they? Lol.
Ponder and Kalil. You're excuses are vaguely familiar. I'm sure you were champion that they were breaking thru too.


Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:26 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
Rhodes Closed wrote:
I'd just like to point out that Trae Waynes, when in man-to-man coverage last year, allowed a passer rating of 21.8.

To put that into context, Marshawn Lattimore allowed 42.1 last year.


PPF is notoriously wrong when they try to track coverages for DBs and protections for Olinemen. You might as well throw those away. They are always way off. I used to be a paid patron and used thier figures religiously.

But I will make this even simpler. Would you take a trade of Waynes for Lattimore straight up?


Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:28 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
YikesVikes wrote:
Rhodes Closed wrote:
I'd just like to point out that Trae Waynes, when in man-to-man coverage last year, allowed a passer rating of 21.8.

To put that into context, Marshawn Lattimore allowed 42.1 last year.


PPF is notoriously wrong when they try to track coverages for DBs and protections for Olinemen. You might as well throw those away. They are always way off. I used to be a paid patron and used thier figures religiously.

But I will make this even simpler. Would you take a trade of Waynes for Lattimore straight up?


Nope. I'd keep Waynes and watch him progress even further, like is going to happen under Zimmer, because he's ****ing Mike Zimmer.


Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:43 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
Rhodes Closed wrote:
YikesVikes wrote:
Rhodes Closed wrote:
I'd just like to point out that Trae Waynes, when in man-to-man coverage last year, allowed a passer rating of 21.8.

To put that into context, Marshawn Lattimore allowed 42.1 last year.


PPF is notoriously wrong when they try to track coverages for DBs and protections for Olinemen. You might as well throw those away. They are always way off. I used to be a paid patron and used thier figures religiously.

But I will make this even simpler. Would you take a trade of Waynes for Lattimore straight up?


Nope. I'd keep Waynes and watch him progress even further, like is going to happen under Zimmer, because he's ****ing Mike Zimmer.


What about Zimmer getting his hands on Lattimore?


Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:40 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
YikesVikes wrote:

What about Zimmer getting his hands on Lattimore?


Lattimore would cost too much. Having both him and Rhodes would be an expensive endeavor that would be a black hole of money better spent if we theoretically traded for and re-signed him in 2022. We'd have to give up the farm to even get Lattimore anyways. No thanks. I'm certainly glad you're not the GM.


Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:55 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
We do have a few issues on D, wont go into them here because a few will disagree with me, but I dont see Waynes as being part of the problems. He is learning to cover better every year. He has an instinct around the LOS, stuffs the run, takes on blockers if he doesnt make the tackle. He doesnt look lost in coverage like his first few years, and uses his speed to his advantage, not just because he was late on a play. You dont move on from a player thats getting better. You however may want to see if a trade can be made for someone that was supposed to be a superstar but isnt, and will demand an insane amount of money. Which we couldnt afford anyways if we get Cousins.


Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:57 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
PurpleKoolaid wrote:
We do have a few issues on D, wont go into them here because a few will disagree with me, but I dont see Waynes as being part of the problems. He is learning to cover better every year. He has an instinct around the LOS, stuffs the run, takes on blockers if he doesnt make the tackle. He doesnt look lost in coverage like his first few years, and uses his speed to his advantage, not just because he was late on a play. You dont move on from a player thats getting better. You however may want to see if a trade can be made for someone that was supposed to be a superstar but isnt, and will demand an insane amount of money. Which we couldnt afford anyways if we get Cousins.


I think he isnt going to get better. Great in run support but he will always be a guy a step late. With that said, my move on form him means drafting a cb and grooming them to replace him. If he improves, so be it. If he doesn't, we aren't caught flat-footed like post-Winfield.


Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:26 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
Rhodes Closed wrote:
YikesVikes wrote:

What about Zimmer getting his hands on Lattimore?


Lattimore would cost too much. Having both him and Rhodes would be an expensive endeavor that would be a black hole of money better spent if we theoretically traded for and re-signed him in 2022. We'd have to give up the farm to even get Lattimore anyways. No thanks. I'm certainly glad you're not the GM.


I believe I said a straight up trade (not saying if they would do it or not, simply would you take him over Waynes). The point is, we can substantially improve this position via drafting. I believe I have seen enough to gauge his potential. Lattimore was a rookie. Not sure why he would cost more than 11th overall (if I remember right) Waynes.


Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:30 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
YikesVikes wrote:
PurpleKoolaid wrote:
We do have a few issues on D, wont go into them here because a few will disagree with me, but I dont see Waynes as being part of the problems. He is learning to cover better every year. He has an instinct around the LOS, stuffs the run, takes on blockers if he doesnt make the tackle. He doesnt look lost in coverage like his first few years, and uses his speed to his advantage, not just because he was late on a play. You dont move on from a player thats getting better. You however may want to see if a trade can be made for someone that was supposed to be a superstar but isnt, and will demand an insane amount of money. Which we couldnt afford anyways if we get Cousins.


I think he isnt going to get better. Great in run support but he will always be a guy a step late. With that said, my move on form him means drafting a cb and grooming them to replace him. If he improves, so be it. If he doesn't, we aren't caught flat-footed like post-Winfield.


We still aren't flat-footed though. We still have Mackensie Alexander, who's looking to improve upon a rocky last year, and then a duo of Sherels and Newman, who are still okay, even if they'll never be great again (or in the case of Sherels, never was great). We have a squad of one incredible Cornerback, and about 5 of them with a minor flaw or whatnot. Not to mention we're likely drafting a cornerback in the later rounds, we'll be fine.


Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:34 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
Another thing on Waynes i would love to see....he becomes our KR man from day one. This guy is so dam athetic, well balanced, and faster then the speed of light. It would take some time to train him, but not many are going to catch up to him if he can hit the crease just right. Now Im not saying I am a Waynes man, I used to dislike him for a few reasons. But he listened to his coaches and learned! I like how he has improived every season. Sure he makes mistakes. We got used to Rhodes who, other then the last few games of this season, was damn near perfect.

Waynes is one guy who put KR back into the limelight in MN since Patterson left. I really think he could be that special. AND he can tackle, and shred blockers. You need to find another player to hate one.


Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:43 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
PurpleKoolaid wrote:
We do have a few issues on D, wont go into them here because a few will disagree with me, but I dont see Waynes as being part of the problems. He is learning to cover better every year. He has an instinct around the LOS, stuffs the run, takes on blockers if he doesnt make the tackle. He doesnt look lost in coverage like his first few years, and uses his speed to his advantage, not just because he was late on a play. You dont move on from a player thats getting better. You however may want to see if a trade can be made for someone that was supposed to be a superstar but isnt, and will demand an insane amount of money. Which we couldnt afford anyways if we get Cousins.


^and that’s coming from someone that literally could not stand Trae Waynes but is willing enough to admit that he has made huge gains this year. Soak that one in

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Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:28 am
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
YikesVikes wrote:
PurpleKoolaid wrote:
We do have a few issues on D, wont go into them here because a few will disagree with me, but I dont see Waynes as being part of the problems. He is learning to cover better every year. He has an instinct around the LOS, stuffs the run, takes on blockers if he doesnt make the tackle. He doesnt look lost in coverage like his first few years, and uses his speed to his advantage, not just because he was late on a play. You dont move on from a player thats getting better. You however may want to see if a trade can be made for someone that was supposed to be a superstar but isnt, and will demand an insane amount of money. Which we couldnt afford anyways if we get Cousins.


I think he isnt going to get better. Great in run support but he will always be a guy a step late. With that said, my move on form him means drafting a cb and grooming them to replace him. If he improves, so be it. If he doesn't, we aren't caught flat-footed like post-Winfield.


First of all, this defense will never suffer from “post Winfield” syndrome as long as Zimmer is here. Zim doesn’t have bad CBs on his D.....ever. And he revives vets like pac man and Newman. Second, there you go saying you “think” he won’t improve. Well, he already has. Each and every year. So there is zero reason to think he’s going to take a step back. Again, you’re arguing something you’re never going to win. ~20% passer rating when thrown to in man coverage and you’re still sitting here saying he’s not good. Come on dude. Seriously?

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Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:34 am
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
YikesVikes wrote:
PurpleKoolaid wrote:
We do have a few issues on D, wont go into them here because a few will disagree with me, but I dont see Waynes as being part of the problems. He is learning to cover better every year. He has an instinct around the LOS, stuffs the run, takes on blockers if he doesnt make the tackle. He doesnt look lost in coverage like his first few years, and uses his speed to his advantage, not just because he was late on a play. You dont move on from a player thats getting better. You however may want to see if a trade can be made for someone that was supposed to be a superstar but isnt, and will demand an insane amount of money. Which we couldnt afford anyways if we get Cousins.


I think he isnt going to get better. Great in run support but he will always be a guy a step late. With that said, my move on form him means drafting a cb and grooming them to replace him. If he improves, so be it. If he doesn't, we aren't caught flat-footed like post-Winfield.


First of all, this defense will never suffer from “post Winfield” syndrome as long as Zimmer is here. Zim doesn’t have bad CBs on his D.....ever. And he revives vets like pac man and Newman. Second, there you go saying you “think” he won’t improve. Well, he already has. Each and every year. So there is zero reason to think he’s going to take a step back. Again, you’re arguing something you’re never going to win. ~20% passer rating when thrown to in man coverage and you’re still sitting here saying he’s not good. Come on dude. Seriously?


Only a Sith deals in absolutes: rofl:
You make a lot of logical fallacies and it's very difficult to discuss things with you when your points are illogical.
1. Because he has improved to this point does not mean he will continue improving. Each player has a limit to where coaching can take them. The things that have improved for Waynes has taken him to a decent but unreliable cb. He is too stiff in his hips and still too slow to drive on cuts by the WR. He doesn't trust his instincts and that is while his play on the ball is atrocious. He was VERY fortunate in most of the games he played. Many of his "pass break-ups" came on plays that he was badly beaten and the ball was so poorly thrown that he had time to recover and got a hand in there. Many times it was by the grace of God that his contact on the WR caused a drop when 9/10 times its an easy catch despite that same contact. PFF and their stats don't count for that.

Do you think it was a coincidence that the Eagles and the Saints both ran so many fly routes against him. I expect that we will see more and more of those next season. I believe that he has hit his limit. You believe that he has more improvement to come. I think he will always be this inconsistent guy. Good one play and abysmal the next. I feel deep down that he will be a 5th year option player (due to his 1st round draft status) but will not be resigned by us in 2 years.


Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:54 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
YikesVikes wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:

First of all, this defense will never suffer from “post Winfield” syndrome as long as Zimmer is here. Zim doesn’t have bad CBs on his D.....ever. And he revives vets like pac man and Newman. Second, there you go saying you “think” he won’t improve. Well, he already has. Each and every year. So there is zero reason to think he’s going to take a step back. Again, you’re arguing something you’re never going to win. ~20% passer rating when thrown to in man coverage and you’re still sitting here saying he’s not good. Come on dude. Seriously?


Only a Sith deals in absolutes: rofl:
You make a lot of logical fallacies and it's very difficult to discuss things with you when your points are illogical.
1. Because he has improved to this point does not mean he will continue improving. Each player has a limit to where coaching can take them. The things that have improved for Waynes has taken him to a decent but unreliable cb. He is too stiff in his hips and still too slow to drive on cuts by the WR. He doesn't trust his instincts and that is while his play on the ball is atrocious. He was VERY fortunate in most of the games he played. Many of his "pass break-ups" came on plays that he was badly beaten and the ball was so poorly thrown that he had time to recover and got a hand in there. Many times it was by the grace of God that his contact on the WR caused a drop when 9/10 times its an easy catch despite that same contact. PFF and their stats don't count for that.

Do you think it was a coincidence that the Eagles and the Saints both ran so many fly routes against him. I expect that we will see more and more of those next season. I believe that he has hit his limit. You believe that he has more improvement to come. I think he will always be this inconsistent guy. Good one play and abysmal the next. I feel deep down that he will be a 5th year option player (due to his 1st round draft status) but will not be resigned by us in 2 years.


And not even a page ago you were calling him below average. What is it? Below average or decent? You keep changing your opinion of him all the time throughout this thread; it's hard to take you seriously.


Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:58 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
Rhodes Closed wrote:
YikesVikes wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:

First of all, this defense will never suffer from “post Winfield” syndrome as long as Zimmer is here. Zim doesn’t have bad CBs on his D.....ever. And he revives vets like pac man and Newman. Second, there you go saying you “think” he won’t improve. Well, he already has. Each and every year. So there is zero reason to think he’s going to take a step back. Again, you’re arguing something you’re never going to win. ~20% passer rating when thrown to in man coverage and you’re still sitting here saying he’s not good. Come on dude. Seriously?


Only a Sith deals in absolutes: rofl:
You make a lot of logical fallacies and it's very difficult to discuss things with you when your points are illogical.
1. Because he has improved to this point does not mean he will continue improving. Each player has a limit to where coaching can take them. The things that have improved for Waynes has taken him to a decent but unreliable cb. He is too stiff in his hips and still too slow to drive on cuts by the WR. He doesn't trust his instincts and that is while his play on the ball is atrocious. He was VERY fortunate in most of the games he played. Many of his "pass break-ups" came on plays that he was badly beaten and the ball was so poorly thrown that he had time to recover and got a hand in there. Many times it was by the grace of God that his contact on the WR caused a drop when 9/10 times its an easy catch despite that same contact. PFF and their stats don't count for that.

Do you think it was a coincidence that the Eagles and the Saints both ran so many fly routes against him. I expect that we will see more and more of those next season. I believe that he has hit his limit. You believe that he has more improvement to come. I think he will always be this inconsistent guy. Good one play and abysmal the next. I feel deep down that he will be a 5th year option player (due to his 1st round draft status) but will not be resigned by us in 2 years.


And not even a page ago you were calling him below average. What is it? Below average or decent? You keep changing your opinion of him all the time throughout this thread; it's hard to take you seriously.


Umm no.. You are trying your best to attack me instead of the argument. Nothing in my statement has changed. Allow me to reiterate in case it wasn't clear.
Waynes improved from being abysmal to being inconsistent. That still means that in 2017 he had below average play (based on the link that was used to justify his improvement).

Im not sure what in my previous statement made you feel that that had changed but... you know miscommunications happen.


Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:16 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
YikesVikes wrote:
Rhodes Closed wrote:

And not even a page ago you were calling him below average. What is it? Below average or decent? You keep changing your opinion of him all the time throughout this thread; it's hard to take you seriously.


Umm no.. You are trying your best to attack me instead of the argument. Nothing in my statement has changed. Allow me to reiterate in case it wasn't clear.
Waynes improved from being abysmal to being inconsistent. That still means that in 2017 he had below average play (based on the link that was used to justify his improvement).

Im not sure what in my previous statement made you feel that that had changed but... you know miscommunications happen.


Wrong, if I was attacking you instead of the argument, I would have said something about you. You changed your opinion that he was below average and then a couple of posts later you said he was decent. Decent is not below average; Decent is average/and or satisfactory. That is attacking the argument. Inconsistent would not be decent. I'm asking to at least be consistent with your wording. :deadhorse:


Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:31 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
Well hold on tight to that belief then. I’m sick of arguing with you. You just keep finding every excuse you can and you’ll continue to lose this argument. There’s a reason nobody agrees with you. It’s not like this board is covered with Waynes lovers. It’s just obvious to the naked eye what he has done this year. And clearly you can’t see that. There’s no more to be said

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Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:02 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
Rhodes Closed wrote:
YikesVikes wrote:
Rhodes Closed wrote:

And not even a page ago you were calling him below average. What is it? Below average or decent? You keep changing your opinion of him all the time throughout this thread; it's hard to take you seriously.


Umm no.. You are trying your best to attack me instead of the argument. Nothing in my statement has changed. Allow me to reiterate in case it wasn't clear.
Waynes improved from being abysmal to being inconsistent. That still means that in 2017 he had below average play (based on the link that was used to justify his improvement).

Im not sure what in my previous statement made you feel that that had changed but... you know miscommunications happen.


Wrong, if I was attacking you instead of the argument, I would have said something about you. You changed your opinion that he was below average and then a couple of posts later you said he was decent. Decent is not below average; Decent is average/and or satisfactory. That is attacking the argument. Inconsistent would not be decent. I'm asking to at least be consistent with your wording. :deadhorse:


Actually...... based on the conversation, I said the statistics in the link said he was below average ( because it Literally said that) but you know.... details.


Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:43 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
"As a result of this recent improvement in play, his cumulative yards per snap on the season is creeping closer to the league-average of 1.08"
Getting close to average means currently below average.

---> Average
---> Below Average
.
.
.
.
----> Waynes in 2016

*based on link provided


Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:46 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Well hold on tight to that belief then. I’m sick of arguing with you. You just keep finding every excuse you can and you’ll continue to lose this argument. There’s a reason nobody agrees with you. It’s not like this board is covered with Waynes lovers. It’s just obvious to the naked eye what he has done this year. And clearly you can’t see that. There’s no more to be said


What has he done this year? Gotten beat like a drum in the first 8 games and turned it around with inconsistent play? You have provided the fact that he improved for half a season and that he is good in run support. Congrats, neither of those points speak to whether he should be a long time play with the Vikes. I've seen enough that he shouldn't be. You need to see more. Fine, that's understandable but my point still stands, he should be moved on from. I never said cut/ I never said traded. I said we should start to groom/procure his replacement.


Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:51 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
YikesVikes wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Well hold on tight to that belief then. I’m sick of arguing with you. You just keep finding every excuse you can and you’ll continue to lose this argument. There’s a reason nobody agrees with you. It’s not like this board is covered with Waynes lovers. It’s just obvious to the naked eye what he has done this year. And clearly you can’t see that. There’s no more to be said


What has he done this year? Gotten beat like a drum in the first 8 games and turned it around with inconsistent play? You have provided the fact that he improved for half a season and that he is good in run support. Congrats, neither of those points speak to whether he should be a long time play with the Vikes. I've seen enough that he shouldn't be. You need to see more. Fine, that's understandable but my point still stands, he should be moved on from. I never said cut/ I never said traded. I said we should start to groom/procure his replacement.


And I disagree. I’ve explained myself enough. I’m done here

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Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:49 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
YikesVikes wrote:
he should be moved on from

Brilliant elocution. Just about as brilliant as your talent evaluation.


Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:33 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
ChicagoViking wrote:
YikesVikes wrote:
he should be moved on from

Brilliant elocution. Just about as brilliant as your talent evaluation.


Why use an obscure, large word in a meaningless discussion? Save that impressive word for a more meaningful discussion. Seeing that the rest of your posts lack this flair for the dramatic and diction, you come off as a #### (rhymes with hooch). However, your response in this thread is just a microcosm of what is wrong this board (see, I can use large words too).
:thumbsup:

P.S. I'm pretty sure I'm a better evaluator of talent than you, so stay humble.


Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:27 pm
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Post Re: Time to move on from Waynes
This has run its course


Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:25 pm
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