Next years QB

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: Next years QB

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:39 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:No offense but this is very one sided and filled with opinions and irrelevant info.


Here's a thread I found on reddit. It's a good read on what we can expect if he lands here. Just to balance this discussion out, here's a paste of the top comment in that thread:
Nissanica 39 points 3 days ago*
If he’s forced to extend a play and make something happen, he’s below average.

So very true. The ability to go “off script” is HUGE in today’s pass happy NFL. Defensive backs simply cannot guard receivers for extended periods of time without taking a penalty. If I were giving a QB a contract like Kirk will get, I would want him to at least be average in this area.

To add a bit:

Rodgers, Wentz, Rothlisburger, Newton, Wilson, Watson and more have this ability. They don’t need a well executed play to consistently make good things happen, as they have the ability to do it on their own. The same cannot be said for Kirk most of the time.

Problem is, there’s so many areas he would have to improve in to do a better job in off script situations.

Processing speed (how quickly he can go through progressions - how quickly he can sense a reciever will have a step and be open)

Blitz recognition/Dealing with pressure (For the second season in a row he’s had issues throwing against pressure. He’s one of the leagues worst when throwing to the intermediate level while under pressure)

Pocket awareness (So many fumbles...Oh kirk..over 30 fumbles in 3 seasons...That is not good)

Ability to evade defenders (pretty much completely absent. If you get to the back field, you’ve got him)

So the keys for Kirk to succeed are pretty simple I think.

Have a smart offensive minded coach
Have an above average pass blocking O line
Have an excellent safety valve like Chris Thompson
Without those three things, Kirk either needs to develop a Peyton Manning like level of pre-snap intelligence or drastically increase his in-play processing speed to be worth what he is getting.

Edit: I should add, this post is about the vikings. In which case, Kirk will play well there. I’m expecting more 4,000+ yard seasons. He’ll still be a systematic guy. He’ll still throw picks, he’ll still fumble. But the Vikings are better equipped to deal with that than we were. They have the right boxes checked for him to have success. The vikings believe their window is now. I’d be fine with the Redskins paying $90 million for an above average guy if it meant two chances at an NFC title game within the next three year period. Any less than that....oh boy....
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Kirk led the league in interceptions while under pressure this past season, with 10 interceptions. And Kirk has over 30 fumbles in the past three seasons alone...just for comparisons sake, I think Alex Smith has about 60 total fumbles in over ten seasons (not sure of the exact figures for alex but i think im close)

That makes things simple for defenses, if you actually get to Kirk, you can either make him fumble or force him to make a bad throw. Obviously this is the goal with any QB, but Kirk’s fumble totals are alarming to say the least. And the interceptions aren’t a good look either.

I also think a few of the big reasons kirk did well against blitzes was due to the bootleg (which I thought kirk was actually really good at) and just having Chris Thompson around in general. So playcalling and team talent may have helped him a bit in that regard.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Redskins/comme ... ng_wisdom/
So let me get this straight. You're bashing one Skins fan for one-sided opinion, and then you're using THIS piece of garbage as a rebuttal?

This is quite possibly the worst analysis of a player I've ever read. There isn't a single fact in it. None. It's completely one-sided ... no wait, I take it back ... he says Cousins throws well on rollouts. Woo hoo!

Since we seem to be all about unsubstantiated opinions, here's mine.

Kirk Cousins was never accepted in Washington precisely because he WASN'T RGIII. That guy came in with a bang. He could throw for 300 or rip off 75-yard TD runs, like he did against the Vikings. His face was plastered all over TV commercials, billboards, magazine covers. He was Joe Namath running a 4.3, able to leap tall buildings, make millions for Madison Avenue AND save Washington from itself.

And then, like every other running quarterback who ever came before him, RGIII got hurt. He lost his wheels. And when he lost his wheels, he had no game.

Cousins, on the other hand, was the sloppy seconds. He was drafted for the express purpose of SITTING behind RGIII. He was never supposed to play. He was the cheap insurance policy. He was the Chrysler K-Car, only to be driven whenever the Cadillac was being washed and detailed. But then the Cadillac got totaled, and the Skins were forced to drive the Chrysler. Oh sure, the K-Car ran well, got great gas mileage, never broke down, and performed better than anyone ever expected. It was a good car. But it was ... a K-Car. Ew.

THAT is why you get garbage like the "analysis" above. It has nothing to do with how Kirk Cousins actually played. It has everything to do that he was playing at all. People like that poster simply can't deal with the fact that the Redskins blew the same quarterback situation twice. Just like they blow everything that has to do with football. And they think they're going to win with Alex Smith? The guy with the 2-5 playoff record? Good luck with that.

I'll take Cousins.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by MrPurplenGold » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:16 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Kirk Cousins was never accepted in Washington precisely because he WASN'T RGIII.
There were plenty of reports that said shannahan preferred cousins over RGIII. Then of course Gruden came in and kept Cousins not RGIII. While RGIII may have started as the face of the franchise, that quickly faded as his play faded.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by MrPurplenGold » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:22 pm

How many wins will Kirk Cousins add
while the Vikings seem to be the favorite to land Cousins at this point,
The numbers say they may not be getting a dramatic upgrade from the position.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by 808vikingsfan » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:13 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:So let me get this straight. You're bashing one Skins fan for one-sided opinion, and then you're using THIS piece of garbage as a rebuttal?
Didn't feel like I was bashing.
]This is quite possibly the worst analysis of a player I've ever read. There isn't a single fact in it. None. It's completely one-sided ... no wait, I take it back ... he says Cousins throws well on rollouts. Woo hoo!
Can I ask why you think it's the worst analysis of a player ever? It's a common theme from Redskins fans. Pocket awareness, fumbles , blitz recognition, extending plays.
Since we seem to be all about unsubstantiated opinions, here's mine.

Kirk Cousins was never accepted in Washington precisely because he WASN'T RGIII. That guy came in with a bang. He could throw for 300 or rip off 75-yard TD runs, like he did against the Vikings. His face was plastered all over TV commercials, billboards, magazine covers. He was Joe Namath running a 4.3, able to leap tall buildings, make millions for Madison Avenue AND save Washington from itself.

And then, like every other running quarterback who ever came before him, RGIII got hurt. He lost his wheels. And when he lost his wheels, he had no game.

Cousins, on the other hand, was the sloppy seconds. He was drafted for the express purpose of SITTING behind RGIII. He was never supposed to play. He was the cheap insurance policy. He was the Chrysler K-Car, only to be driven whenever the Cadillac was being washed and detailed. But then the Cadillac got totaled, and the Skins were forced to drive the Chrysler. Oh sure, the K-Car ran well, got great gas mileage, never broke down, and performed better than anyone ever expected. It was a good car. But it was ... a K-Car. Ew.

THAT is why you get garbage like the "analysis" above. It has nothing to do with how Kirk Cousins actually played. It has everything to do that he was playing at all. People like that poster simply can't deal with the fact that the Redskins blew the same quarterback situation twice. Just like they blow everything that has to do with football. And they think they're going to win with Alex Smith? The guy with the 2-5 playoff record? Good luck with that.

I'll take Cousins.
I just don't buy that argument. If he was that good, both sides would work out something. If Cousins was hurt because he felt disrespected so he wanted out, IMO it's a pretty selfish way to act and I'm not sure that's the kind of person I would want to lead this team.

When did Cousins turn into this top 10 QB that has no flaws?

I'm not saying he's a bad QB. He's good. Above average. With the amount the Vikings have to invest in him, is he good enough to overcome what the Vikings have to give up to get him. Are we missing out on the recent trade market because we're so heavily invested in landing Kirk Cousins?
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Re: Next years QB

Post by 808vikingsfan » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:13 pm

PFF on Kirk Cousins 2017 Season
PFF on Kirk Cousins’ 2017 Season: (ranked #20)
His 78.9 overall grade was the worst he has posted over the last three years,and his season was bookended by the worst two games of the year.

Washington’s offense was dealing with an overhaul in the receiving corps, and Cousins’ offensive line was decimated throughout the year by injury, so he had more working against him than in the past. But his stretches of poor play and bad decisions will be concerning for the team when it comes to trying to put together a deal. Cousins did at least show some high-end performances over the year, but they were too few and far between.

Big-time throw analysis: Cousins finished 17th in big-time throw percentage at 4.13 percent with a number of his best throws being seams or corner routes where he has a knack for throwing with good ball location in order to maximize after-the-catch opportunities. He came through with big throws in key spots as well, whether firing a ball up and away from coverage to Josh Doctson that fell incomplete against the Chiefs or a clutch corner route under heavy pressure to lead a comeback in Seattle. Cousins made clutch throws early in the year before hitting only one big-time throw in his last three games.

Turnover-worthy play analysis: There was no consistent theme to Cousins’ turnover-worthy plays, as he had bad fumbles in the pocket, misreads of zone coverage and off-target throws into man coverage sprinkled throughout his game. He started and ended the season in similar fashion, as his two worst-graded games of season featured far toomany passes that were late and/or inaccurate.

Pass depth analysis: After leading the league with 1,359 yards and the No. 8 adjusted completion percentage at 50.0percent on deep passes, Cousins took a step back to rank ninth in yards (825) and 14th in adjusted completion percentage at 40.9 percent. Losing WR DeSean Jackson was certainly a factor, but 2017 was more in line with his career numbers. On short passes, Cousins ranked 28th out of 45 in PFF grade and his 91.1 passer rating ranked 22nd.

Cousins’ gunslinger mentality shined through on 3rd downs, where he was sixth in big-time throws (8) yet had the fourth-most turnover-worthy throws (7).

Cousins was relatively boom-or-bust inside the opponent’s 20-yard line, firing in 17 red zone touchdowns (tied for eighth-most) but also had three turnover-worthy plays near the goal line, tied for fourth-most among all quarterbacks.
https://www.dailynorseman.com/2018/3/4/ ... -than-pros
Last edited by 808vikingsfan on Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by 808vikingsfan » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:33 pm

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Re: Next years QB

Post by S197 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:15 pm

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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:21 am

I really don’t know if I want Brees as crazy as that sounds. It’s going to be a short stint. I want someone long term otherwise we’ll end up at square one. I’ll stick with cousins
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Re: Next years QB

Post by 808vikingsfan » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:38 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:I really don’t know if I want Brees as crazy as that sounds. It’s going to be a short stint. I want someone long term otherwise we’ll end up at square one. I’ll stick with cousins
Well if rumors are true, Cousins wants to sign a short term deal (3 years) so he can cash in one more time. Stability wise, there really is no difference
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Re: Next years QB

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:27 am

808vikingsfan wrote:Can I ask why you think it's the worst analysis of a player ever? It's a common theme from Redskins fans. Pocket awareness, fumbles , blitz recognition, extending plays.
Because there isn't a verifiable fact in it. There are "I think this is the number" stats, and then nothing but opinions. OK to have opinions, but you had just criticized another Redskin fan's POSITIVE opinion about Cousins for the very same reasons ... and that guy actually had a few facts.
808vikingsfan wrote:
Since we seem to be all about unsubstantiated opinions, here's mine.

Kirk Cousins was never accepted in Washington precisely because he WASN'T RGIII. That guy came in with a bang. He could throw for 300 or rip off 75-yard TD runs, like he did against the Vikings. His face was plastered all over TV commercials, billboards, magazine covers. He was Joe Namath running a 4.3, able to leap tall buildings, make millions for Madison Avenue AND save Washington from itself.

And then, like every other running quarterback who ever came before him, RGIII got hurt. He lost his wheels. And when he lost his wheels, he had no game.

Cousins, on the other hand, was the sloppy seconds. He was drafted for the express purpose of SITTING behind RGIII. He was never supposed to play. He was the cheap insurance policy. He was the Chrysler K-Car, only to be driven whenever the Cadillac was being washed and detailed. But then the Cadillac got totaled, and the Skins were forced to drive the Chrysler. Oh sure, the K-Car ran well, got great gas mileage, never broke down, and performed better than anyone ever expected. It was a good car. But it was ... a K-Car. Ew.

THAT is why you get garbage like the "analysis" above. It has nothing to do with how Kirk Cousins actually played. It has everything to do that he was playing at all. People like that poster simply can't deal with the fact that the Redskins blew the same quarterback situation twice. Just like they blow everything that has to do with football. And they think they're going to win with Alex Smith? The guy with the 2-5 playoff record? Good luck with that.

I'll take Cousins.
I just don't buy that argument. If he was that good, both sides would work out something. If Cousins was hurt because he felt disrespected so he wanted out, IMO it's a pretty selfish way to act and I'm not sure that's the kind of person I would want to lead this team.
The man played behind TJ Clemmings last year. The line stunk, period. Interesting how people were saying the same thing about Sam Bradford after 2016, yet he came out and tore up the Saints to open this year when he had a line that could protect him.
808vikingsfan wrote:When did Cousins turn into this top 10 QB that has no flaws?

I'm not saying he's a bad QB. He's good. Above average. With the amount the Vikings have to invest in him, is he good enough to overcome what the Vikings have to give up to get him. Are we missing out on the recent trade market because we're so heavily invested in landing Kirk Cousins?
You have misquoted me.

I said he was a K-Car. A guy who can get you from place to place. I never said he was Top-10.

Do I think he COULD BE Top-10? Perhaps. I don't know. But I do know that the times we've played Washington, he seems to beat the living daylights out of us (except for this year, when they couldn't stop Case Keenum).

I happen to think Kirk Cousins is better than Keenum, and everybody on this board knows that I love what Case Keenum did last year. If we ended up with Keenum, I wouldn't be upset. If we had a healthy Bradford, I wouldn't be upset. I just think it's unfair to characterize a guy based on fan opinion. Every fanbase has those who hate the quarterback. We have plenty right here on this board who hate Teddy, or think Keenum was a fluke, or think Bradford never was anything. To take the unsubstantiated opinions of Random Redskin Fan as gospel is simply unfair.

Plenty of teams are willing to pay Kirk Cousins. Maybe that means something ... at least more than the opinion of Redskin fans who are forced to suffer with one of the worst organizations in football and are willing to blame it on anybody who takes a snap.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Cliff » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:39 am

I'd take Brees and a high round rookie to learn under him. Maybe 2-3 seasons. I think that'd probably be my preference if I could choose.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by S197 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:41 pm

Cliff wrote:
I'd take Brees and a high round rookie to learn under him. Maybe 2-3 seasons. I think that'd probably be my preference if I could choose.
That'd be ideal. You grab a 2nd/3rd rounder who gets to learn under Bree's and Flip for a couple years. And we win a couple SBs along the way :v):
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Re: Next years QB

Post by halfgiz » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:53 pm

The Vikings offensive line, while improved, still came in at a mediocre 22nd overall - up from 29th overall the previous year.

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2018/3/12 ... ce=twitter

Sounds like we improved but maybe not as much as we thought.
Whatever QB we end up with will need better protection.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Ovechkin8 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:04 pm

808vikingsfan wrote: No offense but this is very one sided and filled with opinions and irrelevant info.


Here's a thread I found on reddit. It's a good read on what we can expect if he lands here. Just to balance this discussion out, here's a paste of the top comment in that thread:
Nissanica 39 points 3 days ago*
If he’s forced to extend a play and make something happen, he’s below average.

So very true. The ability to go “off script” is HUGE in today’s pass happy NFL. Defensive backs simply cannot guard receivers for extended periods of time without taking a penalty. If I were giving a QB a contract like Kirk will get, I would want him to at least be average in this area.

To add a bit:

Rodgers, Wentz, Rothlisburger, Newton, Wilson, Watson and more have this ability. They don’t need a well executed play to consistently make good things happen, as they have the ability to do it on their own. The same cannot be said for Kirk most of the time.

Problem is, there’s so many areas he would have to improve in to do a better job in off script situations.

Processing speed (how quickly he can go through progressions - how quickly he can sense a reciever will have a step and be open)

Blitz recognition/Dealing with pressure (For the second season in a row he’s had issues throwing against pressure. He’s one of the leagues worst when throwing to the intermediate level while under pressure)

Pocket awareness (So many fumbles...Oh kirk..over 30 fumbles in 3 seasons...That is not good)

Ability to evade defenders (pretty much completely absent. If you get to the back field, you’ve got him)

So the keys for Kirk to succeed are pretty simple I think.

Have a smart offensive minded coach
Have an above average pass blocking O line
Have an excellent safety valve like Chris Thompson
Without those three things, Kirk either needs to develop a Peyton Manning like level of pre-snap intelligence or drastically increase his in-play processing speed to be worth what he is getting.

Edit: I should add, this post is about the vikings. In which case, Kirk will play well there. I’m expecting more 4,000+ yard seasons. He’ll still be a systematic guy. He’ll still throw picks, he’ll still fumble. But the Vikings are better equipped to deal with that than we were. They have the right boxes checked for him to have success. The vikings believe their window is now. I’d be fine with the Redskins paying $90 million for an above average guy if it meant two chances at an NFC title game within the next three year period. Any less than that....oh boy....
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Kirk led the league in interceptions while under pressure this past season, with 10 interceptions. And Kirk has over 30 fumbles in the past three seasons alone...just for comparisons sake, I think Alex Smith has about 60 total fumbles in over ten seasons (not sure of the exact figures for alex but i think im close)

That makes things simple for defenses, if you actually get to Kirk, you can either make him fumble or force him to make a bad throw. Obviously this is the goal with any QB, but Kirk’s fumble totals are alarming to say the least. And the interceptions aren’t a good look either.

I also think a few of the big reasons kirk did well against blitzes was due to the bootleg (which I thought kirk was actually really good at) and just having Chris Thompson around in general. So playcalling and team talent may have helped him a bit in that regard.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Redskins/comme ... ng_wisdom/
Ummmm...ok...your rebuttal is exactly full of opinions brother! haha


Also "this past season" is terrible to use. Why not use the last 3 seasons? I will tell you why...that poster wouldn't be able to make his point. When kirk actually had a capable offense (not great) around him he was outstanding in all respects. Last season was an aberration due to Ryan Grant and Josh Doctson being our outside receivers and crap for RBs once Thompson went down (Jordan Reed basically didn't play the entire year). Lets not talk about the O line....

RE: Bradford vs Cousins

I read the article and it wasn't anything earth shattering. "Bradford can be good if he doesn't get injured" is basically the sum of it.


Cousins career QB rating is 93.7 averaging 257 yards per game with 99-55 TD/INT over 63 games and trending up.

Bradford QB rating is 85.1 averaging 238 yards per game with 101-57 TD/INT over 80 games and he carries significant injury risk where Cousins hasn't been injured since high school.

Bradford is a lower event QB who doesn't take as many chances and gets injured every year.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:04 pm

Ovechkin8 wrote:
Ummmm...ok...your rebuttal is exactly full of opinions brother! haha


Also "this past season" is terrible to use. Why not use the last 3 seasons? I will tell you why...that poster wouldn't be able to make his point. When kirk actually had a capable offense (not great) around him he was outstanding in all respects. Last season was an aberration due to Ryan Grant and Josh Doctson being our outside receivers and crap for RBs once Thompson went down (Jordan Reed basically didn't play the entire year). Lets not talk about the O line....

RE: Bradford vs Cousins

I read the article and it wasn't anything earth shattering. "Bradford can be good if he doesn't get injured" is basically the sum of it.


Cousins career QB rating is 93.7 averaging 257 yards per game with 99-55 TD/INT over 63 games and trending up.

Bradford QB rating is 85.1 averaging 238 yards per game with 101-57 TD/INT over 80 games and he carries significant injury risk where Cousins hasn't been injured since high school.

Bradford is a lower event QB who doesn't take as many chances and gets injured every year.
:appl:
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