Next years QB

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
MrPurplenGold
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:46 pm

Re: Next years QB

Post by MrPurplenGold » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:22 pm

I am not for paying best in the NFL money for an above average but not elite QB.

PurpleKoolaid
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8359
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 pm

Re: Next years QB

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:30 pm

S197 wrote:Windows in the NFL are very real and are small. Just look at the last decade in the NFC. NINE different teams in 10 years have made the SB. Unless you're New England you don't have the luxury of building a perpetual contender. When you have your window, you go all in. You don't slow play because the nature of the salary cap is it's an equalizer.

Cousins is worth the risk. Look how long it's been since we've had any stability at QB. It's the last piece of the puzzle to get right.
Everything you said could be said about Case too. And Im guessing about 10 mil a year least. Why go fast over a QB thats showed nothing at crunch time?

User avatar
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 5283
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY

Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:58 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote:
S197 wrote:Windows in the NFL are very real and are small. Just look at the last decade in the NFC. NINE different teams in 10 years have made the SB. Unless you're New England you don't have the luxury of building a perpetual contender. When you have your window, you go all in. You don't slow play because the nature of the salary cap is it's an equalizer.

Cousins is worth the risk. Look how long it's been since we've had any stability at QB. It's the last piece of the puzzle to get right.
Everything you said could be said about Case too. And Im guessing about 10 mil a year least. Why go fast over a QB thats showed nothing at crunch time?
Already explained along with a question that you refuse to answer
Image

User avatar
TSonn
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1794
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:52 am
Location: Kalamazoo, MI

Re: Next years QB

Post by TSonn » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:40 pm

dead_poet wrote:
TSonn wrote:
S197 wrote:Windows in the NFL are very real and are small. Just look at the last decade in the NFC. NINE different teams in 10 years have made the SB. Unless you're New England you don't have the luxury of building a perpetual contender. When you have your window, you go all in. You don't slow play because the nature of the salary cap is it's an equalizer.

Cousins is worth the risk. Look how long it's been since we've had any stability at QB. It's the last piece of the puzzle to get right.
I agree. Cousins could be the guy to put this team over the top during the window, and, if he performs even better when he gets here, could extend that window a bit longer.
My worry, as some have expressed, is his moderately better numbers compared to Case at a likely grossly higher salary. His performance under pressure is also cause for concern. He's not 5x or whatever better than Case and worse in some categories. I'd rather keep the TEAM together that would be better as a unit than a minor upgrade at QB at the expense of other positions.
I'd be more inclined to want Keenum back if we still had Shurmur as the OC. The team is already not going to be the same because the main leader on offense is gone. With the way Bradford played under Shurmur and then Keenum, I think Shurmur had more to do with Keenum's year than Keenum himself. Keenum could easily slip back to his "journeyman" ways under DeFilippo. The fact that Spielman didn't jump at the opportunity to sign or tag our QB who got us to 13-3 speaks volumes of what the leadership really thinks of him. He had a magical year and I sure was rooting for him every minute of every game - but I think there's more evidence that he's not really the guy who put up MVP numbers especially considering we've already lost Shurmur.

Plus, "likely grossly higher salary" doesn't mean much until we know what all the QBs want/get. Sure, it would be a mistake if we could get Keenum for 10m/year but instead sign Cousins for 30+, but my guess is Keenum will get offers of low 20s while Cousins will get high 20s. Would that "grossly higher"? I don't know - probably not for a guy who's been good for longer than one season and who's been healthy his whole career.
Last edited by TSonn on Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TSonn
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1794
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:52 am
Location: Kalamazoo, MI

Re: Next years QB

Post by TSonn » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:42 pm

MrPurplenGold wrote:I am not for paying best in the NFL money for an above average but not elite QB.
Well VMB, looks like Mr. Wilf has spoken! Or do you mean like you aren't going to go to games if Cousins is our QB? Or are you playing hypothetical and saying if you were the owner of the Vikings, you wouldn't sign Cousins?

PurpleKoolaid
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8359
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 pm

Re: Next years QB

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:53 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
PurpleKoolaid wrote:
S197 wrote:Windows in the NFL are very real and are small. Just look at the last decade in the NFC. NINE different teams in 10 years have made the SB. Unless you're New England you don't have the luxury of building a perpetual contender. When you have your window, you go all in. You don't slow play because the nature of the salary cap is it's an equalizer.

Cousins is worth the risk. Look how long it's been since we've had any stability at QB. It's the last piece of the puzzle to get right.
Everything you said could be said about Case too. And Im guessing about 10 mil a year least. Why go fast over a QB thats showed nothing at crunch time?
Already explained along with a question that you refuse to answer
If you already explained it and I refuse to to answer (which i rarely do, maybe not the way you wanted it answered though). You use certain stats, or points, yo justify who ever you want at the time. But it means nothing to the rest of us who have opinions too. Like why should Cousins be the highest paid QB when he has done squat as far as wins. Wins take you to the SB and allows you to win it. Along with good leadership skills. Over paying someone isnt going to get the job done.

PurpleKoolaid
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8359
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 pm

Re: Next years QB

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:57 am

TSonn wrote:
MrPurplenGold wrote:I am not for paying best in the NFL money for an above average but not elite QB.
Well VMB, looks like Mr. Wilf has spoken! Or do you mean like you aren't going to go to games if Cousins is our QB? Or are you playing hypothetical and saying if you were the owner of the Vikings, you wouldn't sign Cousins?
I doubt he meant he is taking out his checkbook and paying some salaries. It sounds to me he doesnt want to put 30 mil on a QB who hasnt proved anything other then he has to have an excellent team around him to many start putting some meaningful games together, instead of elevated the team its. Much like our backup QB did last season.

User avatar
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 5283
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY

Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:53 am

PurpleKoolaid wrote: If you already explained it and I refuse to to answer (which i rarely do, maybe not the way you wanted it answered though). You use certain stats, or points, yo justify who ever you want at the time. But it means nothing to the rest of us who have opinions too. Like why should Cousins be the highest paid QB when he has done squat as far as wins. Wins take you to the SB and allows you to win it. Along with good leadership skills. Over paying someone isnt going to get the job done.
No, you didnt answer my question in any way possible. I asked you if you would take Matt Stafford or Derek Carr on this team for big money? And you've yet to answer.


As for "big wins", he beat the Rams and Seattle this year BOTH on the road. In 2016, he beat the Giants (11-5 that year) on the road, the Eagles both times (even though they werent as good that year), and DEMOLISHED the Packers. Also, beat us if that carries any weight. Those arent "big wins"? If they arent then what do you define as "big wins"? Talk about using statistics that only benefit your argument. Even though saying that actually doesnt.

Also, how can you have a plethora of big wins when your defense is giving up the 28th most points in the NFL. Kirk Cousins absolutely shredded the Saints this year (on the road), threw 3 TDs, no INTs and put up 31 points. But lost. His defense gave up 34 points. That's on Kirk Cousins? Like I said, anti-Cousins fans continue to leave out the defensive aspect of all this time and time again. But "hey lets pay Case Keenum because he will be cheaper and got us to the NFCC!!!" Case Keenum played well and is my #2 option dont get me wrong but you know just as well as I do that he had a 10 times better TEAM around him than Cousins did. If Case Keenum of all QBs can succeed on a team like this, why cant Kirk Cousins? Answer me that.

What is Cousins suppose to do, win a SB with the 28th ranked defense in the NFL? Name me the last time a "bad defense" outside of the Brady/Belichik combo, won a SB. Or even made it there for that matter. AARON RODGERS cant even get there or win one anymore because his defense is so bad. Are we going to question him too?

As for making him the highest paid QB, you know how it goes (I would hope). This happens every year. It was Stafford. It was Flacco. It was Rodgers. It was Carr. It was Luck. It was Garoppolo. It will be Cousins. It will be Rodgers shortly after Cousins. It changes every year because the salary cap continues to rise. Joe Flacco was the highest paid player in the NFL after the SB. He is now the 15th highest paid QB. Perfect example of how often it changes. In a year or two Cousins is going to shoot back down the rankings again because more and more QBs are going to get new deals. QB's pay goes up as the NFL salary cap goes up. So saying he will be the highest paid in the NFL is overrated because that will soon quickly disappear just like it did with Flacco.


Again, I am NOT using "certain stats". I just used every passing category you could ask for during his 3 year stretch as a starter and he was within the top 10 in most of them and if he wasnt in the top 10, he was just outside of that. Obviously you didnt look at the stats otherwise you would know this. So I'll post them again:

Cousins in 2017:

7th in passing yards

10th in completion percentage

11th in average YPC

8th in TD passes

5th in passes of 20+ yards

9th in passes of 40+ yards

12th in QB rating



Cousins in 2016:

3rd in passing yards

8th in completion percentage

3rd in average YPC

13th in TD passes

2nd in passes of 20+ yards

4th in passes of 40+ yards

8th in QB rating



Cousins in 2015:

10th in passing yards

1st in completion percentage

8th in average YPC

T-12th in TD passes (he had 29 and leader had 36. Much closer than what it shows)

16th in passes of 20+ yards (was only 3 away from 8th. Also much closer than what it shows)

19th in passes of 40+ yards

5th in QB rating


....No nitpicking there.
Image

User avatar
MrPurplenGold
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:46 pm

Re: Next years QB

Post by MrPurplenGold » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:11 am

PurpleKoolaid wrote:
TSonn wrote:
MrPurplenGold wrote:I am not for paying best in the NFL money for an above average but not elite QB.
Well VMB, looks like Mr. Wilf has spoken! Or do you mean like you aren't going to go to games if Cousins is our QB? Or are you playing hypothetical and saying if you were the owner of the Vikings, you wouldn't sign Cousins?
I doubt he meant he is taking out his checkbook and paying some salaries. It sounds to me he doesnt want to put 30 mil on a QB who hasnt proved anything other then he has to have an excellent team around him to many start putting some meaningful games together, instead of elevated the team its. Much like our backup QB did last season.

Thank you

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3472
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am

Re: Next years QB

Post by fiestavike » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:49 am

If the Vikings could get Cousins for Mid twenties, they could find that money on the roster.

If they cut:

Shariff Floyd --- 6.8
Latavius Murray -- 5.2
Jarius Wright -- 2.6
Andrew Sendejo -- 3.5
Brian Robison -- 3.5

They still have their current 47 million to work with in FA and re-signing guys, or frontloading the Cousins deal. Those are valuable players but mostly backups, and any GM in the league would gladly trade them for a legit starting QB. Come to think of it, its not impossible that they could trade Wright/Sendejo or Robison for a mid-late round pick or two and clear up some space. Sendejo and Robison in particular are playing on contracts they are outperforming. Dallas could probably use both of them. If they could trade Wright, I think they would also save the 2.1 part of his deal that would still count against the cap if he's cut. I'd gladly take a 7th round pick to part with his 5 million is cap space. I like Wright, but that was genuinely one of the worst contracts the Vikings have given out in years.

The next year you would still have 14 million in savings from the Sendejo/Murray/Wright contracts and you could come up with the extra money from any of the following contracts:

Remmers 4.5
Rudolph 7.6
Everson Griffin 10.7

If they go after Cousins, I would suggest front loading the deal with a record smashing 35-40 million in year one, and something like 18-20 in year two with year 3 being similar but with 0 guaranteed dollars.

I would also be happy to let Case/Teddy test the market and re-sign one or both of them to compete. I don't believe Case will get more than 15 per year and Teddy will probably not be signed for more than 10 unless Cleveland or NYJ want to sign him as a bridge with enough upside to be a possible longterm starter, in which case he could get a 1-2 year contract for a bit more. People can point to Glennon and say these guys will get paid more, but that Glennon move was universally panned, and the Bears have already cut bait. I have no interest in Bradford.

mansquatch
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3456
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: Coon Rapids, MN

Re: Next years QB

Post by mansquatch » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:14 am

dead_poet wrote:
TSonn wrote:
S197 wrote:Windows in the NFL are very real and are small. Just look at the last decade in the NFC. NINE different teams in 10 years have made the SB. Unless you're New England you don't have the luxury of building a perpetual contender. When you have your window, you go all in. You don't slow play because the nature of the salary cap is it's an equalizer.

Cousins is worth the risk. Look how long it's been since we've had any stability at QB. It's the last piece of the puzzle to get right.
I agree. Cousins could be the guy to put this team over the top during the window, and, if he performs even better when he gets here, could extend that window a bit longer.
My worry, as some have expressed, is his moderately better numbers compared to Case at a likely grossly higher salary. His performance under pressure is also cause for concern. He's not 5x or whatever better than Case and worse in some categories. I'd rather keep the TEAM together that would be better as a unit than a minor upgrade at QB at the expense of other positions.
Keenum put up those numbers on a great team.
Cousins put up those numbers on a bad team.

It doesn't seem like a stretch to think Cousins will put up even better numbers with us.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi

mansquatch
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3456
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: Coon Rapids, MN

Re: Next years QB

Post by mansquatch » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:21 am

PurpleKoolaid wrote:
mansquatch wrote:I really do not see why this is so hard. QB is the most important position in the game. There is a top 10 guy on the market. We need a top 10 guy. DONE.

If that isn't enough, we are obviously in a SB window right now. If there was ever a time to pay for some talent, it is now.

On top of that, we are easily the most desirable landing spot for any QB. Keenum lit up this place with this roster. Imagine what a guy with some serious NFL moxy is going to do.

I really can't believe this is even a debate.

GO SIGN COUSINS!!!!
What do you love about Cousins? Since you say his win/loss percentage is meaningless. Which is one of the very few times Ive heard that mentioned. Hand picking stats that work with your theories can only go so far. IF cousins is so effing good and WE SHOULD GO GET GET HIM, why can he improve the teams he is on? You going to blame that all on coaches, GM, other players, etc, but never Cousins? I dont think Cousins is trash, but he isnt the second coming of jesus like some here believe. How do you know Case cant get better with an even better team, and more time on that team? Thats right, you dont. I just dont want us to spend 10 mil a year over what the guy is worth because we paniced, just like we did when we got Sam. How did that work out for you?
Uhh, I didn't say any of that in my post that you quoted?

However, I'll answer your question:

Cousins is the best QB option available to us. It is that simple. It doens't matter how he compared to the likes of Rogers and Brady. It matters that he can be had. The comparison isn't between Cousins and other players who are not on the market. The comparison is between Cousins and the rest of the QB market right now.

If you don't like Cousins then you have to way the risks with starting a guy with a lower cap number. One of those risks is the fact that we are in a SB window. How much cap space are you willing to risk for the Lombardi Trophy? I think I've made my position on that question rather clear.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3472
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am

Re: Next years QB

Post by fiestavike » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:40 am

mansquatch wrote: How much cap space are you willing to risk for the Lombardi Trophy? I think I've made my position on that question rather clear.
I don't think the cap space is much of a factor anyway. As usual, the Vikings are in pretty good position. They should be able to keep the players on the roster they want and add Cousins if that's what they want to do. I think the question is whether they would rather add cousins or 3 or 4 free agents who might be able to start at other positions over the next two years. Would you rather have Cousins and draft to try to fill holes at DT, OG, etc or would you rather upgrad those positions to strengths and retain a player like Keenum while drafting for the future of the position?

In todays NFL, a legit starting QB is worth so much. I don't know how good Cousins is, but I would go after him and try to draft/develop to address the other areas of weakness, even though tempermentally I am not comfortable with that path. As a fan I'd rather keep Teddy/Case and sign an upgrade at DT and G this year, but if my job depended on getting it right, Cousins would be the choice.

User avatar
Maelstrom88
Transition Player
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:38 am

Re: Next years QB

Post by Maelstrom88 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:36 pm

The number one thing this team needs to put them over the hump is a good consistent starting quarterback. Kirk Cousins provides that and is better than anything they have had since Brett Favre. I absolutely think that they should pay him whatever it takes and try to fill in the holes of whoever they can't afford to keep after that through the draft. You do have to ask yourself though why the team that gave Albert Haynesworth 100 million dollars refuses to pay him? I also think if it is a three-year deal worth 91 million and he wants two bites of the Apple the Vikings absolutely need to draft a quarterback in the next year or two in the first two rounds to develop as an insurance policy that second go around.
Offseason Goal: Draft durable, tough, intelligent offensive lineman who are dependable technicians and avoid penalties aka drive killers.

User avatar
Rhodes Closed
Starter
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:21 am
Location: Sleepy Eye, Minnesota

Re: Next years QB

Post by Rhodes Closed » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:44 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
PurpleKoolaid wrote: If you already explained it and I refuse to to answer (which i rarely do, maybe not the way you wanted it answered though). You use certain stats, or points, yo justify who ever you want at the time. But it means nothing to the rest of us who have opinions too. Like why should Cousins be the highest paid QB when he has done squat as far as wins. Wins take you to the SB and allows you to win it. Along with good leadership skills. Over paying someone isnt going to get the job done.
No, you didnt answer my question in any way possible. I asked you if you would take Matt Stafford or Derek Carr on this team for big money? And you've yet to answer.


As for "big wins", he beat the Rams and Seattle this year BOTH on the road. In 2016, he beat the Giants (11-5 that year) on the road, the Eagles both times (even though they werent as good that year), and DEMOLISHED the Packers. Also, beat us if that carries any weight. Those arent "big wins"? If they arent then what do you define as "big wins"? Talk about using statistics that only benefit your argument. Even though saying that actually doesnt.

Also, how can you have a plethora of big wins when your defense is giving up the 28th most points in the NFL. Kirk Cousins absolutely shredded the Saints this year (on the road), threw 3 TDs, no INTs and put up 31 points. But lost. His defense gave up 34 points. That's on Kirk Cousins? Like I said, anti-Cousins fans continue to leave out the defensive aspect of all this time and time again. But "hey lets pay Case Keenum because he will be cheaper and got us to the NFCC!!!" Case Keenum played well and is my #2 option dont get me wrong but you know just as well as I do that he had a 10 times better TEAM around him than Cousins did. If Case Keenum of all QBs can succeed on a team like this, why cant Kirk Cousins? Answer me that.

What is Cousins suppose to do, win a SB with the 28th ranked defense in the NFL? Name me the last time a "bad defense" outside of the Brady/Belichik combo, won a SB. Or even made it there for that matter. AARON RODGERS cant even get there or win one anymore because his defense is so bad. Are we going to question him too?

As for making him the highest paid QB, you know how it goes (I would hope). This happens every year. It was Stafford. It was Flacco. It was Rodgers. It was Carr. It was Luck. It was Garoppolo. It will be Cousins. It will be Rodgers shortly after Cousins. It changes every year because the salary cap continues to rise. Joe Flacco was the highest paid player in the NFL after the SB. He is now the 15th highest paid QB. Perfect example of how often it changes. In a year or two Cousins is going to shoot back down the rankings again because more and more QBs are going to get new deals. QB's pay goes up as the NFL salary cap goes up. So saying he will be the highest paid in the NFL is overrated because that will soon quickly disappear just like it did with Flacco.


Again, I am NOT using "certain stats". I just used every passing category you could ask for during his 3 year stretch as a starter and he was within the top 10 in most of them and if he wasnt in the top 10, he was just outside of that. Obviously you didnt look at the stats otherwise you would know this. So I'll post them again:

Cousins in 2017:

7th in passing yards

10th in completion percentage

11th in average YPC

8th in TD passes

5th in passes of 20+ yards

9th in passes of 40+ yards

12th in QB rating



Cousins in 2016:

3rd in passing yards

8th in completion percentage

3rd in average YPC

13th in TD passes

2nd in passes of 20+ yards

4th in passes of 40+ yards

8th in QB rating



Cousins in 2015:

10th in passing yards

1st in completion percentage

8th in average YPC

T-12th in TD passes (he had 29 and leader had 36. Much closer than what it shows)

16th in passes of 20+ yards (was only 3 away from 8th. Also much closer than what it shows)

19th in passes of 40+ yards

5th in QB rating


....No nitpicking there.

I'd also like to add onto this. Cousins couldn't win games because the Redskins defense was cousin-touching awful, bottom half of the league.
something Rhodes Closed wrote:Looking at those years, here's what we can glean from those seasons, defensively for the Redskins:

2015: 24 Points Against (17th)
2016: 24 Points Against (19th)
2017: 24 Points Against (27th)

On average, the defense gave up 24 points a game for three years in a row, which is not stellar defense. Comparatively, the Vikings in the same three seasons:

2015: 19 Points Against (5th)
2016: 19 Points Against (6th)
2017: 16 Points Against (1st)

The key difference is not that Cousins couldn't win, it's that the Redskins defenses always ranked amongst the lower half in the league, the most egregious of those years being this year, when they were downright awful. With our defense, Kirk Cousins would likely have been leading the Redskins to the playoffs every single one of those years. (I'm not even getting into our offenses, because the Redskins offenses were much better than ours bar 2017).
I'd like to talk about offense too, now, because people just can't seem to get it through their head that there's three sides of the ball game (offense, defense, and special teams) and if you're awful at one of them, 9/10 times you're going to be a bad team.

Redskins Offense:

2015: 24 Points For (10th)
2016: 25 Points For (12th)
2017: 22 Points For (27th)

Vikings Offense:

2015: 23 Points For (16th)
2016: 20 Points For (23rd)
2017: 24 Points For (10th)

The Vikings were awful on offense in 2016 for a myriad of reasons (o-line injuries being the culprit for the most part), much like this year, the Redskins were awful for a myriad of reasons, least of which was the Kirk Cousins. Think about that.

Post Reply