Next years QB

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Mothman
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Mothman » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:43 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Cliff wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:Well him and Spielman go hand in hand coming up with those contracts. Spielman doesn’t just say “hey Rob send this kid a contract”. They look at future cap and develop the contract together
Do they though? I'm sure Spielman has a little bit of input but I imagine he's a little busy to be dealing with the finer points of creating the contracts. That's not his job. Of course, this is basically guess work for us both since we aren't inside their organization but I'm not sure why you'd think Spielman is very involved in creating contracts. I'd say he approves them, sure.
Well sure I would think. You have to determine how long you want the guy for, what we have for contracts down the road, etc. RB does a lot of the number crunching I’m sure but I highly doubt he just does the entire thing himself. Spielman himself needs to know what contracts will look like down the road and how we will be cap wise in following years. He needs to familiarize himself with that. So again, I can’t imagine he just walks away and says go ahead Rob it’s all yours.

Nobody suggested anything so absurd in the first place. My point was simply that it's been clear for years that Brzezinski's primary role is cap management. He's the one with the expertise in that area and he's the one who deserves the lion's share of the credit for the team managing the cap well.

This isn't controversial stuff. The Vikings clearly spell out his role on their website:

http://www.vikings.com/team/staff/rob-b ... fceea50849
The Vikings benefit from Brzezinski’s extensive knowledge and strategic salary cap management and a philosophy that has aided in the retention of core players, the addition of key free agents and the overall talent and depth of the team. Brzezinski’s role as lead negotiator on high-profile contracts during his career includes more than 20 first-round draft picks and landmark deals for such players as Randy Moss, Daunte Culpepper, Antoine Winfield, Steve Hutchinson, Kevin Williams, Jared Allen, Brett Favre, Adrian Peterson and Harrison Smith. Brzezinski has negotiated contracts during his career totaling more than $1 billion.
Brzezinski was actively involved in the Vikings 2014 Head Coaching search and works closely with General Manager Rick Spielman and Head Coach Mike Zimmer on all football-related matters and strategic planning. Brzezinski’s key responsibilities include salary cap management, negotiation of player contracts, football operations/administration and CBA compliance.
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Raptorman
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Raptorman » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:46 am

This is a list if QB's taken in the 2000 draft before Tom Brady. All were considered better than Brady.

Code: Select all

                    Round Pick  Team
Chad Pennington	     1	18	 NYJ
Giovanni Carmazzi	   3	65	 SFO
Chris Redman	        3	75	 BAL
Tee Martin	          5	163	PIT
Marc Bulger	         6	168	NOR
Spergon Wynn	        6	183	CLE
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S197
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Re: Next years QB

Post by S197 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:46 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
S197 wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.

That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?
While that's true, even after he was GM, the trend continued. In 2012 we had Ponder, Joe Webb (who was drafted to be a WR and converted by Chili in training camp), and Bethel McWhatshisface. 2013 was the Josh Freeman and Cassel fiasco. 2014 was when we grabbed Teddy when we were certain Ponder wasn't the answer. And still no viable back up. 2015 was Shaun Hill.

In fact, you have to go back nearly a DECADE to find the last QB we took outside of the 1st round, which were picks out of desperation (Ponder) or necessity (Teddy). John David Booty was the last QB we drafted to be a potential backup. That's excluding Webb for the aforementioned reason. Think about that for a second, arguably the single most important position on the football field and we've never tried to draft a contingency. Because that spans multiple coaches, that seems strongly indicative of having Rick's fingerprints all over it. I really hope we stop relying on the Thigpen, Heinicke, Slotter's of the world to maybe pan out. We should really be drafting guys in the mid or at least late rounds. Especially with the penchant to have as many as 10 picks in a draft.
No argument here. He certainly shares in the blame for our inadequacies in QB depth, although I don't believe he was the sole reason.

What I do think, however, is that he's grown in the job. His track record proves it. Our recent drafts have been very good, and you also have to look at how well we're set up for the salary cap. Spotrac projects us to not only have about $57 million in cap space for 2018, but also $62 million in 2019. Of course, the key is to do something with all that money, but he's been wise in setting us up financially for the future.
I agree, he's grown a lot and has clearly hit on a good amount of draft picks. I just hope he improves in this one aspect.
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S197
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Re: Next years QB

Post by S197 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:54 pm

Raptorman wrote:
S197 wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.

That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?
While that's true, even after he was GM, the trend continued. In 2012 we had Ponder, Joe Webb (who was drafted to be a WR and converted by Chili in training camp), and Bethel McWhatshisface. 2013 was the Josh Freeman and Cassel fiasco. 2014 was when we grabbed Teddy when we were certain Ponder wasn't the answer. And still no viable back up. 2015 was Shaun Hill.

In fact, you have to go back nearly a DECADE to find the last QB we took outside of the 1st round, which were picks out of desperation (Ponder) or necessity (Teddy). John David Booty was the last QB we drafted to be a potential backup. That's excluding Webb for the aforementioned reason. Think about that for a second, arguably the single most important position on the football field and we've never tried to draft a contingency. Because that spans multiple coaches, that seems strongly indicative of having Rick's fingerprints all over it. I really hope we stop relying on the Thigpen, Heinicke, Slotter's of the world to maybe pan out. We should really be drafting guys in the mid or at least late rounds. Especially with the penchant to have as many as 10 picks in a draft.
Drafting a good backup QB is the same as drafting in the first round. You just don't know who is going to be bust and who is going to be good. Can anyone say that when Brady was picked in the 6th round that the Pats thought he would be their QB for 18 years?
Brady is an outlier and shouldn't be used as a way to plan for building a roster. And even if you use Brady, he was still drafted! We don't even try to grab guys in the 6th round.

The better example, and I've used it before but it's relevant again, is Kirk Cousins. Recall the Redskins bet the farm on RG3 but still had the smarts to grab a contingency in Cousins in the mid-rounds. That's smart football and that's what I'm talking about. Yes, it's a crap shoot to some degree but the odds are infinitely longer when you're talking about a mid-round guy vs an UDFA.

A mid-round QB can still be a starting QB from the SEC or other major conference. An UDFA is going to be some kid who played one year at Northwestern Smallville Tech State.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by fiestavike » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:16 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
You're critical of nearly everything the Vikings ever do
False.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by fiestavike » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:17 pm

Raptorman wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
Trading a 4th for Keenum instead of a 1st and 4th for Bradford. Ummmm let's see. Keenum was the Ram's starting QB for the first 9 games in 2016. What in the world thinks you could have picked him up for a only a 4th round draft pick?
The words 'for instance' seem to be difficult to grasp...
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Re: Next years QB

Post by tzinc » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:53 pm

Brady is not an outlier remember Joe Montana? Many many first round high draft pick QBs busted. Many QBs that looked like busts took years to develop. Remember Kurt Warner?
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:49 pm

fiestavike wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
You're critical of nearly everything the Vikings ever do
False.
Well if you did a better job explaining yourself then people wouldn’t think that. You just blurt stuff out and then fail to support what you say
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fiestavike
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Re: Next years QB

Post by fiestavike » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:29 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
You're critical of nearly everything the Vikings ever do
False.
Well if you did a better job explaining yourself then people wouldn’t think that. You just blurt stuff out and then fail to support what you say
Wrong again. It was just an absurd comment by Kapp.

I have no interest in trying to convince you of anything. You are free to hold whatever silly opinion you want.
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S197
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Re: Next years QB

Post by S197 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:30 pm

tzinc wrote:Brady is not an outlier remember Joe Montana? Many many first round high draft pick QBs busted. Many QBs that looked like busts took years to develop. Remember Kurt Warner?
Joe Montana was drafted in the 3rd round.

So you have two guys spanning several decades. That's the very definition of outlier. Let me ask you this, how many starting QB's are there right now that were 6th round picks or later?
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:45 pm

fiestavike wrote:Wrong again. It was just an absurd comment by Kapp.

I have no interest in trying to convince you of anything. You are free to hold whatever silly opinion you want.
Well I highly doubt our opinions are as silly as thinking Latavius Murray would be a 3rd RB or worse on most nfl teams :lol: But we’ll save that for a rainy day!
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Re: Next years QB

Post by 808vikingsfan » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:48 pm

Well. Looks like SF just made Cousins out of reach for the Vikings.
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J. Kapp 11
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Re: Next years QB

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:00 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Well if you did a better job explaining yourself then people wouldn’t think that. You just blurt stuff out and then fail to support what you say
Wrong again. It was just an absurd comment by Kapp.
Absurd? Really?

Please, then. Educate us. Prove us wrong.

Give an opinion and support it with facts. Hell, give us ONE FACT. Feel free to take your time. We'll wait.
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J. Kapp 11
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Re: Next years QB

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:21 pm

S197 wrote:
tzinc wrote:Brady is not an outlier remember Joe Montana? Many many first round high draft pick QBs busted. Many QBs that looked like busts took years to develop. Remember Kurt Warner?
Joe Montana was drafted in the 3rd round.

So you have two guys spanning several decades. That's the very definition of outlier. Let me ask you this, how many starting QB's are there right now that were 6th round picks or later?
Interesting question. There are four.

Tyrod Taylor
Trevor Siemian
Case Keenum
Tom Brady

That's it. And that assumes Trevor Siemian is a starting quarterback.
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mosscarter
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Re: Next years QB

Post by mosscarter » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:58 am

This conversation has made me dumber.
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