Next years QB

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fiestavike
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Re: Next years QB

Post by fiestavike » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:20 pm

tzinc wrote:I hate many of the moves/draft picks Spielman as made but I won't second guess the Bradford move it was the right move just because it didn't work doesn't mean it was the wrong move with the benefit of hindsight it is easy to say.

That Bradford move showed the Vikes they think they are an experienced QB away from a SB.
They will make a move for an experienced QB again:
I would look at Cousins and Foles and maybe Case if they think the year was not a fluke - Bradford is injury prone and Teddy is overrated
I think it was a shortsighted, panic driven mistake...and I generally like Spielman. Not his finest hour in my view.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Dames » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:36 pm

fiestavike wrote:
tzinc wrote:I hate many of the moves/draft picks Spielman as made but I won't second guess the Bradford move it was the right move just because it didn't work doesn't mean it was the wrong move with the benefit of hindsight it is easy to say.

That Bradford move showed the Vikes they think they are an experienced QB away from a SB.
They will make a move for an experienced QB again:
I would look at Cousins and Foles and maybe Case if they think the year was not a fluke - Bradford is injury prone and Teddy is overrated
I think it was a shortsighted, panic driven mistake...and I generally like Spielman. Not his finest hour in my view.
You would have preferred (at the time) to ride it out with Shaun Hill? The Vikings had a very solid team in 2016 that was decimated by injury. It's very easy to say now that it would have been better to not make the trade, but at the time it appeared to be a trade that put us right back into contention. You can't expect a GM to sit on his hands before the season starts, and frankly everyone would have been pissed if he didn't try. It didn't work out, but I'm certainly not faulting him for that.

The argument can be made that they should have signed a better backup before the season started. That I can get behind, and probably falls on Spielman. They clearly had no faith in Hill to carry them more than a game or 2. They learned that lesson it seems, and signing Case last year was clearly a better move.... or they got really lucky. Can't decide :)
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Re: Next years QB

Post by fiestavike » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:47 pm

Dames wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
tzinc wrote:I hate many of the moves/draft picks Spielman as made but I won't second guess the Bradford move it was the right move just because it didn't work doesn't mean it was the wrong move with the benefit of hindsight it is easy to say.

That Bradford move showed the Vikes they think they are an experienced QB away from a SB.
They will make a move for an experienced QB again:
I would look at Cousins and Foles and maybe Case if they think the year was not a fluke - Bradford is injury prone and Teddy is overrated
I think it was a shortsighted, panic driven mistake...and I generally like Spielman. Not his finest hour in my view.
You would have preferred (at the time) to ride it out with Shaun Hill? The Vikings had a very solid team in 2016 that was decimated by injury. It's very easy to say now that it would have been better to not make the trade, but at the time it appeared to be a trade that put us right back into contention. You can't expect a GM to sit on his hands before the season starts, and frankly everyone would have been pissed if he didn't try. It didn't work out, but I'm certainly not faulting him for that.

The argument can be made that they should have signed a better backup before the season started. That I can get behind, and probably falls on Spielman. They clearly had no faith in Hill to carry them more than a game or 2. They learned that lesson it seems, and signing Case last year was clearly a better move.... or they got really lucky. Can't decide :)
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Thaumaturgist » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:28 pm

fiestavike wrote: They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
IMHO, the real thing that Spielman did wrong, was to not have a viable option behind Teddy. If Shaun Hill wasn't that guy then they should have addressed it way before Bridgewater was injured in the first place.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:33 pm

Thaumaturgist wrote:
fiestavike wrote: They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
IMHO, the real thing that Spielman did wrong, was to not have a viable option behind Teddy. If Shaun Hill wasn't that guy then they should have addressed it way before Bridgewater was injured in the first place.
Very true.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:45 pm

fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
See this is what I dont understand. First of all, trading for Case?? Case Keenum was about as good as Dan Orlovsky back then. He was a middling backup at best. That's like saying "we should have taken Tom Brady in the 6th round in 2000". Nobody knew Tom Brady was worth a nickel just like nobody knew Case was worth diddly either.

As for McCarron and Garappolo, you think they would cost a 4th?? Not even close. For one, I dont even think the Pats wouldve trade Jimmy G last year. That was the rumored issue in NE this year is that Brady and Kraft wanted Jimmy G gone and Bill didnt. I dont believe that was the case last year. And I can sure tell you that Cincy wouldve wanted more for AJ McCarron.

When Bradford is healthy, he's better than a middle starter IMO. He's just never healthy. Although we say that and he didnt miss a single game in 2016 behind the worst OL ever.

Again, I've said this time and time again: Everyone was ready to give up on Rudy a few years back saying he's injury prone, blah blah blah. And now look? He's been rock solid for quite some time. Fans want to give a guy that nearly lost his leg and hasnt played in two years another chance but say no to Bradford. Hmmmm. But Teddy is a feel good story and "nobody ever really like Sam Bradford". Well Sam Bradford is 20 times the QB Teddy is. I truly feel bad for Bradford because the guy has terrible luck. He was on such a bad team for so long, gets bit with the injury bug, makes it through all of 2016 behind the worst OL in Vikings history and the year everything seems to have gotten fixed, he goes down with a knee issue. He threw 20 TDs and 5 INTs in 2016. He was the LEAST of our problems. If healthy, I believe he couldve done what Case did this year and maybe even a little more.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by fiestavike » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:16 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
See this is what I dont understand. First of all, trading for Case?? Case Keenum was about as good as Dan Orlovsky back then. He was a middling backup at best. That's like saying "we should have taken Tom Brady in the 6th round in 2000". Nobody knew Tom Brady was worth a nickel just like nobody knew Case was worth diddly either.
I'm pretty certain I actually proposed it before we had Case Keenum on the team or anybody knew he was any good. But, as I said 'for instance'. Feel free to insert any other journeyman who could have been acquired for cheap, Fitzpatrick, Foles, McCown, etc. There was no reason to mortgage the future for a player like Bradford, who was never going to be good enough to get this team over the hump anyway. This is not hindsight. I said it from the start.
As for McCarron and Garappolo, you think they would cost a 4th??
No, I don't think that. Unfortunately, I didn't word my sentence very artfully, but you have got the wrong end of the stick.
When Bradford is healthy, he's better than a middle starter IMO. He's just never healthy. Although we say that and he didnt miss a single game in 2016 behind the worst OL ever.
And at least that was worth a 1st and 4th.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:42 pm

fiestavike wrote:They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
Easy to say after the fact.

And a lot of people would disagree with you regarding Sam Bradford's abilities. Terrible pocket presence? Whatever. The guy had 5 turnstiles blocking for him, and you expect him to somehow be elusive? Look at Case ... he took almost no sacks until the line started going down with injuries. Then he was sacked a lot. Bradford also has more arm talent than almost anybody in the league, and whether you want to admit it or not, he had a good year last year. Especially given the porous nature of his O-line.

The balky knees comment is legitimate. Rick Spielman took a chance on his health. It didn't work out. But that's an entirely separate argument than Bradford's abilities.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by fiestavike » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:03 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
fiestavike wrote:They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
Easy to say after the fact.
easy to say before the fact as well.

*The guy has never known how to step up in the pocket. Case Keenum is a better QB if for that fact alone...and I'm not sold on Case Keenum by a long shot.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:12 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
fiestavike wrote:They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
Easy to say after the fact.

And a lot of people would disagree with you regarding Sam Bradford's abilities. Terrible pocket presence? Whatever. The guy had 5 turnstiles blocking for him, and you expect him to somehow be elusive? Look at Case ... he took almost no sacks until the line started going down with injuries. Then he was sacked a lot. Bradford also has more arm talent than almost anybody in the league, and whether you want to admit it or not, he had a good year last year. Especially given the porous nature of his O-line.

The balky knees comment is legitimate. Rick Spielman took a chance on his health. It didn't work out. But that's an entirely separate argument than Bradford's abilities.
Agreed 100%. Could you imagine what this forum would have been like if Spielman said, Shaun Hill is our starter for the rest of 2016?? It would be in complete uproar. But yeah since we didnt win a SB with Bradford, it's easy to say, yeah we should have just wasted a year and went with Shaun Hill.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:16 pm

fiestavike wrote: I'm pretty certain I actually proposed it before we had Case Keenum on the team or anybody knew he was any good. But, as I said 'for instance'. Feel free to insert any other journeyman who could have been acquired for cheap, Fitzpatrick, Foles, McCown, etc. There was no reason to mortgage the future for a player like Bradford, who was never going to be good enough to get this team over the hump anyway. This is not hindsight. I said it from the start.
Mortgage the future? This isnt 2009 where we have a bunch of guys near retirement. This team was fairly loaded. We had no first and lost our 2nd round pick in week 4 and made it to the NFC championship this year. That shows you how good of a roster we have. So no, Spielman did not "mortgage the future". And that 4th rounder I'm not worried about by any means. Spielman is known for trading and will get a picks back no problem.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by fiestavike » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:19 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
fiestavike wrote: I'm pretty certain I actually proposed it before we had Case Keenum on the team or anybody knew he was any good. But, as I said 'for instance'. Feel free to insert any other journeyman who could have been acquired for cheap, Fitzpatrick, Foles, McCown, etc. There was no reason to mortgage the future for a player like Bradford, who was never going to be good enough to get this team over the hump anyway. This is not hindsight. I said it from the start.
Mortgage the future? This isnt 2009 where we have a bunch of guys near retirement. This team was fairly loaded. We had no first and lost our 2nd round pick in week 4 and made it to the NFC championship this year. That shows you how good of a roster we have. So no, Spielman did not "mortgage the future". And that 4th rounder I'm not worried about by any means. Spielman is known for trading and will get a picks back no problem.
Yeah, might as well just give 4th round picks away...And what's a first rounder worth anyway.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:34 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Yeah, might as well just give 4th round picks away...And what's a first rounder worth anyway.
I'm starting to think it's near impossible to reason with you. Thats not what I'm saying. You're missing point after point. All picks carry value but bottom line is, we could afford it unlike other teams. Teams that are rebuilding are a lot different than our team was coming off an 11-5 season with just about everyone back.

I'm not saying just toss picks all over the place but you also dont let a season fall apart with no QB. You go out and get one. Not settle for sucking.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by S197 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:14 pm

Thaumaturgist wrote:
fiestavike wrote: They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
IMHO, the real thing that Spielman did wrong, was to not have a viable option behind Teddy. If Shaun Hill wasn't that guy then they should have addressed it way before Bridgewater was injured in the first place.
That's always been my main criticism of Spielman and it predates Teddy by quite a bit. Even when old man Favre was here we had no back up. The good news is we had not one but two really solid backups this year so hopefully he's learned from those mistakes. We should know soon. Otherwise I think he's done a rather good job as GM.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Raptorman » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:28 pm

fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
Trading a 4th for Keenum instead of a 1st and 4th for Bradford. Ummmm let's see. Keenum was the Ram's starting QB for the first 9 games in 2016. What in the world thinks you could have picked him up for a only a 4th round draft pick?
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