fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
IMHO, the real thing that Spielman did wrong, was to not have a viable option behind Teddy. If Shaun Hill wasn't that guy then they should have addressed it way before Bridgewater was injured in the first place.
That's always been my main criticism of Spielman and it predates Teddy by quite a bit. Even when old man Favre was here we had no back up. The good news is we had not one but two really solid backups this year so hopefully he's learned from those mistakes. We should know soon. Otherwise I think he's done a rather good job as GM.
To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.
That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?
fiestavike wrote:They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
Easy to say after the fact.
easy to say before the fact as well.
*The guy has never known how to step up in the pocket. Case Keenum is a better QB if for that fact alone...and I'm not sold on Case Keenum by a long shot.
OK, so let me ask.
You're critical of nearly everything the Vikings ever do, so exactly who ARE you sold on?
When the injury happened to Bridgewater, there was not much time to find a replacement. As with a lot of situations when time is of the essence, you sometimes do the best you can and I don't think that Rick had a lot of options. Garoppolo was still left with a year on his rookie deal and they would have wanted even more than we gave for Bradford if they would have even dealt him at all.
This is not the year and these are not the guys to break the bank on.
This is one of those weird situations where the evidence tells us to do exactly the opposite of what everyone is suggesting. 3 of the 4 teams in the conference championships had cast off 2nd rate quarterbacks. The logical response to the evidence is to NOT break the bank for a top 10-15ish quarterback and yet that’s what everyone is arguing for.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.
That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?
While that's true, even after he was GM, the trend continued. In 2012 we had Ponder, Joe Webb (who was drafted to be a WR and converted by Chili in training camp), and Bethel McWhatshisface. 2013 was the Josh Freeman and Cassel fiasco. 2014 was when we grabbed Teddy when we were certain Ponder wasn't the answer. And still no viable back up. 2015 was Shaun Hill.
In fact, you have to go back nearly a DECADE to find the last QB we took outside of the 1st round, which were picks out of desperation (Ponder) or necessity (Teddy). John David Booty was the last QB we drafted to be a potential backup. That's excluding Webb for the aforementioned reason. Think about that for a second, arguably the single most important position on the football field and we've never tried to draft a contingency. Because that spans multiple coaches, that seems strongly indicative of having Rick's fingerprints all over it. I really hope we stop relying on the Thigpen, Heinicke, Slotter's of the world to maybe pan out. We should really be drafting guys in the mid or at least late rounds. Especially with the penchant to have as many as 10 picks in a draft.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.
That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?
While that's true, even after he was GM, the trend continued. In 2012 we had Ponder, Joe Webb (who was drafted to be a WR and converted by Chili in training camp), and Bethel McWhatshisface. 2013 was the Josh Freeman and Cassel fiasco. 2014 was when we grabbed Teddy when we were certain Ponder wasn't the answer. And still no viable back up. 2015 was Shaun Hill.
In fact, you have to go back nearly a DECADE to find the last QB we took outside of the 1st round, which were picks out of desperation (Ponder) or necessity (Teddy). John David Booty was the last QB we drafted to be a potential backup. That's excluding Webb for the aforementioned reason. Think about that for a second, arguably the single most important position on the football field and we've never tried to draft a contingency. Because that spans multiple coaches, that seems strongly indicative of having Rick's fingerprints all over it. I really hope we stop relying on the Thigpen, Heinicke, Slotter's of the world to maybe pan out. We should really be drafting guys in the mid or at least late rounds. Especially with the penchant to have as many as 10 picks in a draft.
No argument here. He certainly shares in the blame for our inadequacies in QB depth, although I don't believe he was the sole reason.
What I do think, however, is that he's grown in the job. His track record proves it. Our recent drafts have been very good, and you also have to look at how well we're set up for the salary cap. Spotrac projects us to not only have about $57 million in cap space for 2018, but also $62 million in 2019. Of course, the key is to do something with all that money, but he's been wise in setting us up financially for the future.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:No argument here. He certainly shares in the blame for our inadequacies in QB depth, although I don't believe he was the sole reason.
What I do think, however, is that he's grown in the job. His track record proves it. Our recent drafts have been very good, and you also have to look at how well we're set up for the salary cap. Spotrac projects us to not only have about $57 million in cap space for 2018, but also $62 million in 2019. Of course, the key is to do something with all that money, but he's been wise in setting us up financially for the future.
I think Rob Brzezinski deserves the credit for that. Cap management and contracts are literally his job.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.
That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?
While that's true, even after he was GM, the trend continued. In 2012 we had Ponder, Joe Webb (who was drafted to be a WR and converted by Chili in training camp), and Bethel McWhatshisface. 2013 was the Josh Freeman and Cassel fiasco. 2014 was when we grabbed Teddy when we were certain Ponder wasn't the answer. And still no viable back up. 2015 was Shaun Hill.
In fact, you have to go back nearly a DECADE to find the last QB we took outside of the 1st round, which were picks out of desperation (Ponder) or necessity (Teddy). John David Booty was the last QB we drafted to be a potential backup. That's excluding Webb for the aforementioned reason. Think about that for a second, arguably the single most important position on the football field and we've never tried to draft a contingency. Because that spans multiple coaches, that seems strongly indicative of having Rick's fingerprints all over it. I really hope we stop relying on the Thigpen, Heinicke, Slotter's of the world to maybe pan out. We should really be drafting guys in the mid or at least late rounds. Especially with the penchant to have as many as 10 picks in a draft.
No argument here. He certainly shares in the blame for our inadequacies in QB depth, although I don't believe he was the sole reason.
What I do think, however, is that he's grown in the job. His track record proves it. Our recent drafts have been very good, and you also have to look at how well we're set up for the salary cap. Spotrac projects us to not only have about $57 million in cap space for 2018, but also $62 million in 2019. Of course, the key is to do something with all that money, but he's been wise in setting us up financially for the future.
Agreed 100%. That’s exactly what I believe is that he’s grown into the job. That’s a good way to put it. This is why I say what he did in Miami means nothing. He does an excellent job preparing for the future and also does a great job retaining key players. Outside of maybe Munnerlyn, when was the last time a legit player walked? It’s been a long time if at all since 2012.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
J. Kapp 11 wrote:No argument here. He certainly shares in the blame for our inadequacies in QB depth, although I don't believe he was the sole reason.
What I do think, however, is that he's grown in the job. His track record proves it. Our recent drafts have been very good, and you also have to look at how well we're set up for the salary cap. Spotrac projects us to not only have about $57 million in cap space for 2018, but also $62 million in 2019. Of course, the key is to do something with all that money, but he's been wise in setting us up financially for the future.
I think Rob Brzezinski deserves the credit for that. Cap management and contracts are literally his job.
Well him and Spielman go hand in hand coming up with those contracts. Spielman doesn’t just say “hey Rob send this kid a contract”. They look at future cap and develop the contract together
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
Pondering Her Percy wrote:Well him and Spielman go hand in hand coming up with those contracts. Spielman doesn’t just say “hey Rob send this kid a contract”. They look at future cap and develop the contract together
Do they though? I'm sure Spielman has a little bit of input but I imagine he's a little busy to be dealing with the finer points of creating the contracts. That's not his job. Of course, this is basically guess work for us both since we aren't inside their organization but I'm not sure why you'd think Spielman is very involved in creating contracts. I'd say he approves them, sure.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.
That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?
I have brought this point up multiple times over the years. It’s a hard argument to win. But I feel the same exact way
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
Pondering Her Percy wrote:Well him and Spielman go hand in hand coming up with those contracts. Spielman doesn’t just say “hey Rob send this kid a contract”. They look at future cap and develop the contract together
Do they though? I'm sure Spielman has a little bit of input but I imagine he's a little busy to be dealing with the finer points of creating the contracts. That's not his job. Of course, this is basically guess work for us both since we aren't inside their organization but I'm not sure why you'd think Spielman is very involved in creating contracts. I'd say he approves them, sure.
Well sure I would think. You have to determine how long you want the guy for, what we have for contracts down the road, etc. RB does a lot of the number crunching I’m sure but I highly doubt he just does the entire thing himself. Spielman himself needs to know what contracts will look like down the road and how we will be cap wise in following years. He needs to familiarize himself with that. So again, I can’t imagine he just walks away and says go ahead Rob it’s all yours.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
You're critical of nearly everything the Vikings ever do, so exactly who ARE you sold on?
Im starting to wonder the same thing Kapp. I was just told by him that Latavius Murray would be a 3rd RB or cut by most teams in the nfl. Possibly one of the most outlandish things I’ve ever heard on this board. Maybe he’s been on a bender the past couple days
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
Pondering Her Percy wrote:Well sure I would think. You have to determine how long you want the guy for, what we have for contracts down the road, etc. RB does a lot of the number crunching I’m sure but I highly doubt he just does the entire thing himself. Spielman himself needs to know what contracts will look like down the road and how we will be cap wise in following years. He needs to familiarize himself with that. So again, I can’t imagine he just walks away and says go ahead Rob it’s all yours.
Right, but giving a rough outline (we want X player for X years) and then signing off on something are a far cry from creating it. You could also assume that Spielman might not even have some of these options brought up to him at all with a different guy crunching the numbers.
I guess I'm just looking at it more of giving RB props than detracting from Spielman. As GM he deserves at least some credit for all parts of the team (good or bad) so to some point he deserves credit.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.
That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?
While that's true, even after he was GM, the trend continued. In 2012 we had Ponder, Joe Webb (who was drafted to be a WR and converted by Chili in training camp), and Bethel McWhatshisface. 2013 was the Josh Freeman and Cassel fiasco. 2014 was when we grabbed Teddy when we were certain Ponder wasn't the answer. And still no viable back up. 2015 was Shaun Hill.
In fact, you have to go back nearly a DECADE to find the last QB we took outside of the 1st round, which were picks out of desperation (Ponder) or necessity (Teddy). John David Booty was the last QB we drafted to be a potential backup. That's excluding Webb for the aforementioned reason. Think about that for a second, arguably the single most important position on the football field and we've never tried to draft a contingency. Because that spans multiple coaches, that seems strongly indicative of having Rick's fingerprints all over it. I really hope we stop relying on the Thigpen, Heinicke, Slotter's of the world to maybe pan out. We should really be drafting guys in the mid or at least late rounds. Especially with the penchant to have as many as 10 picks in a draft.
Drafting a good backup QB is the same as drafting in the first round. You just don't know who is going to be bust and who is going to be good. Can anyone say that when Brady was picked in the 6th round that the Pats thought he would be their QB for 18 years?
Vikings fan since Nov. 6, 1966. Annoying Packer fans since Nov. 7, 1966