It's time to give Case Keenum his due

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
720pete
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 631
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by 720pete » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:04 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: I continue to wonder why it's even a question.
Me too. I don't get the love for him. He's a solid leader and a good person, but I doubt he'd do as well as Case Keenum has this season.

The only thing I worry about with Keenum is that he could pull a Nick Foles and have an awesome season and then suck again next season. But that's not a criticism specific to Case, that could happen with any QB who had a breakout year. Dak Prescott for example.
0 x

PurpleKoolaid
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8379
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 pm

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:15 pm

Why dont you think Teddy couldnt? The 2 QBs are very similar. Except now we actually have an Oline (something Teddy never had), better receivers, and a better defense. And a great OC. Theres no doubt in my mind Teddy could and would excel in that situation. But the object is to win games, and Case is, thats why he is still in.

I think a lot of people outside MN are giving Case his due. Its just the Vikings as a whole, outside of MN, get no respect. It ticks me off. We've won 8 games in a row, and its hardly mentioned. 10 wins already is good enough for more then a little mention, and then talk about the Packers for 30 minutes.
0 x

User avatar
halfgiz
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1821
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:38 pm

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by halfgiz » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:23 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote:Why dont you think Teddy couldnt? The 2 QBs are very similar. Except now we actually have an Oline (something Teddy never had), better receivers, and a better defense. And a great OC. Theres no doubt in my mind Teddy could and would excel in that situation. But the object is to win games, and Case is, thats why he is still in.
.
Nobody said that Teddy couldn't do it....But until he actually accomplishes it.
It's just speculation.


Pete I think a lot could hinge on what Shurmur does.
0 x

PurpleKoolaid
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8379
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 pm

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:29 pm

halfgiz wrote: Nobody said that Teddy couldn't do it....But until he actually accomplishes it.
It's just speculation.
Did you see the post above mine? The one that said he doubted Teddy could do whatever Case has done? I dont like it when people try and discredit Teddy, when he hasnt even had a chance to play after blowing out his knee. No one knows what he would be like under this new system and players we have. Its the first year we have really addressed the Oline in, well, as long as I can remember.

I love what Case is doing. He deserves all the attention. But theres no sense in trying to bring down Teddy at the same time.
0 x

User avatar
Thaumaturgist
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:29 am

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by Thaumaturgist » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:57 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote:... and then talk about the Packers for 30 minutes.
Yes, but the Packers won this week.

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk
0 x

User avatar
808vikingsfan
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3502
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:45 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by 808vikingsfan » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:07 pm

720pete wrote: Me too. I don't get the love for him. He's a solid leader and a good person, but I doubt he'd do as well as Case Keenum has this season.

The only thing I worry about with Keenum is that he could pull a Nick Foles and have an awesome season and then suck again next season. But that's not a criticism specific to Case, that could happen with any QB who had a breakout year. Dak Prescott for example.
IMO, one of the reasons Zimmer is keeping Case week to week is to keep the team's mentality week to week. Besides, there really is no advantage to label Keenum as the starter now. Case loves this underdog label and is thriving in it. Who knows where his mental state will go if he's named the starter now. Plus, the door is still open in case Zimmer wants to put Bridgewater in at some point.
0 x
Joined: Aug 2006
Deleted: Sept 12 2014
Reborn: Sept 17 2014

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7058
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:25 pm

Here's an exercise.

Quarterback A, first 25 NFL starts:
• 74.0 passer rating
• 59.5% completion rate,
• 27 TDs
• 29 INTs
• ANY/A (adjusted net yards per attempt) of 4.92

Quarterback B, first 25 NFL starts:
78.4 passer rating
58.4% completion rate
24 TDs
20 INTs
ANY/A of 5.35

Name each quarterback (Hint: One of them is likely a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer who is still active).
0 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

John_Viveiros
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2450
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2003 8:55 pm
Location: Olympia, Washington

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by John_Viveiros » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:41 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:Here's an exercise.

Quarterback A, first 25 NFL starts:
• 74.0 passer rating
• 59.5% completion rate,
• 27 TDs
• 29 INTs
• ANY/A (adjusted net yards per attempt) of 4.92

Quarterback B, first 25 NFL starts:
78.4 passer rating
58.4% completion rate
24 TDs
20 INTs
ANY/A of 5.35

Name each quarterback (Hint: One of them is likely a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer who is still active).
I'm thinking Drew Brees and Case Keenum, but obviously I can't tell which is which. Isn't Drew a lot taller? Like 10 mm or so?
0 x

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7058
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:32 am

John_Viveiros wrote: I'm thinking Drew Brees and Case Keenum, but obviously I can't tell which is which. Isn't Drew a lot taller? Like 10 mm or so?
You got it!

Quarterback A is Drew Brees, while Quarterback B is Case Keenum. Stats courtesy of the Daily Norseman. Here's the fascinating article.

The writer makes some great points. First, that if you chart all of Keenum's most meaningful stats -- passer rating, completion percentage, ESPN QBR -- and then plot the statistical mean, the trend is upward on all of his stats, and that's through his whole career.

He makes many other points, including a rundown of several other quarterbacks who had less than auspicious starts to their careers but ended up being stars. Here's his conclusion.
Perhaps more than statistics and trendlines, these clips- along with many others- show how Keenum has upped his game as a play-maker. He may not have the cannon to fire a rope 50 yards down the field to a receiver at the back of the endzone for a touchdown, as Favre did memorably in 2009 against the 49ers, but he does have a certain saavy in avoiding sacks, extending plays, and still delivering an accurate throw- all while not making many mistakes with the football. And he’s had some of his best games against the toughest opponents- and on the road. All that suggests not a quarterback playing over his head, but a quarterback coming into his own.
What if this is, as the author states, a situation where Case Keenum is actually coming into his own as a quarterback? Perhaps the Vikings would be wise to not make the same mistake San Diego did with Drew Brees, or Atlanta did with Brett Favre.
0 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
Raptorman
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3238
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:23 pm
Location: Sebastian, FL

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by Raptorman » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:03 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: I listened to Mike Wobschall's Wobcast this morning on the way in to work. They had Pat Elflein as a guest, and his words were particularly important.

Elflein talked about Case Keenum, and he spoke a lot about the things we don't see on film. How he takes command of the huddle. How he never gets down. How he gets the best out of everybody. How he's always so well prepared. Call it "intangible." Call it "moxie." Call it what you will, but he's got something going on right now that makes him better than his talent. The biggest thing Elflein said was that everybody in that huddle would run through fire for the guy. Add THAT to a lot of talent around him, and you've got a championship formula.

Here's what else I'll say. If the guy suddenly reverts to turnover-prone Case Keenum from last year, I'll be at the front of the line calling for Teddy to replace him. This season is too special to be sentimental toward any particular player. And I DO think Teddy needs to play at some point, so that he can knock off some rust in the event Case gets injured in the playoffs. But as of right now, and assuming Case keeps playing the way he has been playing, he's the man as far as I'm concerned.

I won't buy his jersey just yet ... but if he wins us a Super Bowl, I'll buy two.
This. This can't be bought, taught or forced on anyone. This is earned. It's not something you can see on film. It's something that people see in the person in front of them at the time. I would rather have a QB that has this kid of "aura" around him than one that's good whose teammates don'e like. This is an intangible that can't be measured.
0 x
Vikings fan since Nov. 6, 1966. Annoying Packer fans since Nov. 7, 1966

PurpleKoolaid
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8379
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 pm

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:37 pm

Same thing was said about Teddy. looks like we have 2 charismatic QB's. Maybe 3 if players felt the same way about Sam.
0 x

User avatar
allday1991
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 988
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:31 pm

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by allday1991 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:32 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote:It is really getting annoying (not on here all the time, but on some sites and blogs) to hear how GREAT Case is. He is doing well, making good reads, not getting sacked, few INTs (luckily, cause some of his throws are really bad), but his receivers are bailing him out, especially Adam Theilen. Diggs and Kyle are doing the same thing. I guess Shurmur must have said, just throw it close to them, let them do the rest. I have this terrible feeling in my gut Case's luck is going to run out, and Teddy is going to be too rusty because he wont have the time to get ready. Again I hope I am wrong, but I talk to a lot of friends that are so high on Case, and ask them whats he done. How many 11-5 seasons has he had? Why didnt anyone want him starting this year? Hes either one of the luckiest QBs in the world, getting the starting job when he did, or he is a good QB. So many things are in his favor, like a defense Zimmer trusts. I like Case too, but I want to win a SB just about more then anything. And I know how sad that is, but season after season of something keeping that dream away has worn me down.
Well, after Bradford injured his knee and cook blew his acl what where your expectations for this season? I for one thought it was over and I'm sure I wasn't alone. However the unbelievable play of our third string qb leaves us with the chance to have our best season in 20 years and we look like we have an honest shot to go deep into the playoffs, for those reasons if you cant understand why people are so big on case you never will. Go look at Case's highlights for 2017 and tell me he didn't drop a lot of passes right in the bread basket of our wrs. To think he's been playing this well just by the philosophy of throw it close to the wrs might not be far off cause it is the qbs job to get the ball close to the wrs, and he's doing better than Bridgewater ever did.
0 x
“I remember my mistakes more than my success.” - Adrian Peterson

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7058
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:15 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote:It is really getting annoying (not on here all the time, but on some sites and blogs) to hear how GREAT Case is. He is doing well, making good reads, not getting sacked, few INTs (luckily, cause some of his throws are really bad), but his receivers are bailing him out, especially Adam Theilen. Diggs and Kyle are doing the same thing. I guess Shurmur must have said, just throw it close to them, let them do the rest. I have this terrible feeling in my gut Case's luck is going to run out, and Teddy is going to be too rusty because he wont have the time to get ready. Again I hope I am wrong, but I talk to a lot of friends that are so high on Case, and ask them whats he done. How many 11-5 seasons has he had? Why didnt anyone want him starting this year? Hes either one of the luckiest QBs in the world, getting the starting job when he did, or he is a good QB. So many things are in his favor, like a defense Zimmer trusts. I like Case too, but I want to win a SB just about more then anything. And I know how sad that is, but season after season of something keeping that dream away has worn me down.
You know what annoys me? Every so-called "expert" out there telling me it's simply a matter of time before midnight strikes and Case Keenum turns back into a pumpkin. I'm tired of people assuming that because he was a pedestrian quarterback for the Rams, he'll always be a pedestrian quarterback.

Let me just lay it on the line here. Case Keenum is coming into his own, people. He's not just getting lucky. He's not just riding a hot streak. He's coming into his own as a legitimate quarterback in this league.

I've presented some serious analytical evidence of this evolution in the article I cited above. Try reading it. Have an open mind. Look at the evidence. If you're not convinced, then fine. But I'll say this. I believe we have as good a shot to win that elusive Super Bowl right now as we've had in the past 20 years. And that is with Case Keenum at quarterback, not Teddy Bridgewater.

Heck, let's take it a step further. I believe fully that if Teddy Bridgewater replaces Case Keenum at any point this season, we're finished. We will not win the Super Bowl.

For one reason, there is no way that Teddy can get up to speed with this offense to the degree that this team needs to win a Super Bowl. Not in four weeks. But the biggest reason is that there is absolutely no way that Bridgewater can lift his play to the championship level Keenum has shown us over the past several weeks. As a matter of fact, Teddy has NEVER played at that level -- at any point in his career. Teddy Bridgewater would have to put up a 100+ QBR in 5 of his next 7 games just to equal what Case has done in his career. Now all of a sudden, after nearly two full years of not taking a single snap in a regular-season game, he's going to put up those kinds of numbers? I like Teddy. But the truth is staring us all right in the face. This has the potential to be Kurt Warner all over again, and you want to go back to Trent Green.

Tell you what. You want that Super Bowl? You'd better pray we don't have to switch.
0 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

PurpleKoolaid
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8379
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 pm

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:25 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: You know what annoys me? Every so-called "expert" out there telling me it's simply a matter of time before midnight strikes and Case Keenum turns back into a pumpkin. I'm tired of people assuming that because he was a pedestrian quarterback for the Rams, he'll always be a pedestrian quarterback.

Let me just lay it on the line here. Case Keenum is coming into his own, people. He's not just getting lucky. He's not just riding a hot streak. He's coming into his own as a legitimate quarterback in this league.

I've presented some serious analytical evidence of this evolution in the article I cited above. Try reading it. Have an open mind. Look at the evidence. If you're not convinced, then fine. But I'll say this. I believe we have as good a shot to win that elusive Super Bowl right now as we've had in the past 20 years. And that is with Case Keenum at quarterback, not Teddy Bridgewater.

Heck, let's take it a step further. I believe fully that if Teddy Bridgewater replaces Case Keenum at any point this season, we're finished. We will not win the Super Bowl.

For one reason, there is no way that Teddy can get up to speed with this offense to the degree that this team needs to win a Super Bowl. Not in four weeks. But the biggest reason is that there is absolutely no way that Bridgewater can lift his play to the championship level Keenum has shown us over the past several weeks. As a matter of fact, Teddy has NEVER played at that level -- at any point in his career. Teddy Bridgewater would have to put up a 100+ QBR in 5 of his next 7 games just to equal what Case has done in his career. Now all of a sudden, after nearly two full years of not taking a single snap in a regular-season game, he's going to put up those kinds of numbers? I like Teddy. But the truth is staring us all right in the face. This has the potential to be Kurt Warner all over again, and you want to go back to Trent Green.

Tell you what. You want that Super Bowl? You'd better pray we don't have to switch.
Great speculation, its a free forum. How about a few facts? Like Teddy has NEVER seen this type of an offense, and its not because of Case. Its the new Oline, Pat Shurmur, and the receivers making fantastic plays. Or do you think Teddys Oline, OC, and receivers were better?
0 x

User avatar
dead_poet
Commissioner
Posts: 24614
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:30 pm
Location: Des Moines, Iowa

Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by dead_poet » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:41 am

You know, it's possible with the enhanced roster and Shurmer's offense, the talent of Case, Sam and Teddy any one of them could be enjoying the same success as Case is having right now. We saw it with Sam (though briefly). A large number of us saw Teddy's progress before his injury. Now Case comes out of nowhere. It's certainly not a stretch to believe that if Sam's injury had been sustained a few weeks later (or if the Vikings decided NOT to put Teddy on the PUP) that Teddy would've replaced Sam and playing to this level. I mean, before Case's breakout this year he was the owner of a sub-60% completion rate, 24-20 TD-INT ratio and 44.1 QBR over 26 games. Teddy bested him in every category in his 29 total games, sometimes significantly. Before Case was 2017 Case, he was worse than Teddy by any measure you want to choose.

It's certainly possible that Case simply got lucky with the timing.

Frankly, I don't care. Yes, I love Teddy. I also like Case a whole bunch. The Vikings are winning. That's all that matters. Hopefully they keep this up.

:v):
0 x
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly