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 Not elite 
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Post Re: Not elite
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Just Me wrote:
I started thinking about our defense (elite is just a subjective label IMHO) and wondered whether or not 1 game could (or should) make a difference in that assessment. I looked at last year's number 1 (source) defense 15.6 points per game (New England) and decided to look at individual games during the 2016 season.

Guess what I found? In the ninth game of the 2016 season, coming out of a bye week, the Patriots (who normally were solid on defense) gave up 31 points to a Seattle Seahawks team that was only ranked 18th in offense. (if you're curious - Washington currently ranks #12 in offense). My point is that if by the standards we are looking at (giving up 30 points in a single game) somehow knocks a team out of this category, then the #1 defense last year doesn't fit the moniker of 'elite' either.

Let's take a look at some of the great defenses in NFL history
• In 2000, the Ravens gave up 36 to Jacksonville.
• In 1985, the Bears gave up 38 to the Dolphins.
• In 1976, the Pittsburgh Steelers gave up 30 to the Patriots.
• In 1971, our own Minnesota Vikings, one of the truly great defenses of all time (only 9.9 ppg allowed), gave up 30 to the 6-8 San Diego Chargers.

It is not unprecedented for a great defense to have a bad day.

And here's something of note. Of all the games listed above, only one of them resulted in a win for the defense that had a bad day. We won against Washington. I'm good with that.

(Fun note that I didn't know: The '71 Vikings had 57 takeaways in 14 games ... 27 interceptions and 30 fumbles recovered. Unbelievable!)
That last statement is insane.

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Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:36 pm
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Post Re: Not elite
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Just Me wrote:
I started thinking about our defense (elite is just a subjective label IMHO) and wondered whether or not 1 game could (or should) make a difference in that assessment. I looked at last year's number 1 (source) defense 15.6 points per game (New England) and decided to look at individual games during the 2016 season.

Guess what I found? In the ninth game of the 2016 season, coming out of a bye week, the Patriots (who normally were solid on defense) gave up 31 points to a Seattle Seahawks team that was only ranked 18th in offense. (if you're curious - Washington currently ranks #12 in offense). My point is that if by the standards we are looking at (giving up 30 points in a single game) somehow knocks a team out of this category, then the #1 defense last year doesn't fit the moniker of 'elite' either.

Let's take a look at some of the great defenses in NFL history
• In 2000, the Ravens gave up 36 to Jacksonville.
• In 1985, the Bears gave up 38 to the Dolphins.
• In 1976, the Pittsburgh Steelers gave up 30 to the Patriots.
• In 1971, our own Minnesota Vikings, one of the truly great defenses of all time (only 9.9 ppg allowed), gave up 30 to the 6-8 San Diego Chargers.

It is not unprecedented for a great defense to have a bad day.

And here's something of note. Of all the games listed above, only one of them resulted in a win for the defense that had a bad day. We won against Washington. I'm good with that.

My favorite is one of the dominant teams in NFL history - the 49ers. In their last Superbowl winning season, they lost a mid-season game to the Eagles by a score of 40-8. And then they righted the ship and won the Lombardi trophy.


Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:16 am
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Post Re: Not elite
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
mansquatch wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
If we beat the Rams this coming Sunday, there is no doubt that the Minnesota Vikings HAVE to be part of the Super Bowl conversation. Maybe not the favorite -- that's likely still going to be Philadelphia. But in the conversation.



Irrespective of whether it is right or wrong, we are starting a backup QB who has done nothing prior to this year. We also play in flyover country and up until yesterday the only big win on your schedule was week 1 when our starting QB was still healthy. In that respect it makes sense that we haven't been at the forefront of the NFC conversation.

Also, you have to consider the Sports Media itself: East Coast bias is a thing. So is the cult of the QB. We fail both of those tests. However, who cares? These are the same lemmings who thought GB was a SB team and think DAL is a contender. in both cases the flaws were easy to see if you watched them play. Maybe the tests aren't that accurate?

Enjoy the ride, in about 10 days we'll know if we are a legitimate threat in the playoffs. I predict 9-2 and belly full of Turkey, but I'm an optimist.

The scary thing is if the offense keeps playing like it did on Saturday and the defense rebounds 11-2 isn't out of the question. I'm thinking the entire playoffs go through US Bank. :govikes:

Don't make me salivate before Thanksgiving.



I'm getting really close to full homer. This last game was the prove it game for me. There are still questions, but they won a big game on the road. This could be the year. The 2000 Ravens won a SB with Trent Dilfer. It could happen! Now they'll probably lay an egg on Sunday and it will be all my fault.

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Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:44 am
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Post Re: Not elite
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Just Me wrote:
I started thinking about our defense (elite is just a subjective label IMHO) and wondered whether or not 1 game could (or should) make a difference in that assessment. I looked at last year's number 1 (source) defense 15.6 points per game (New England) and decided to look at individual games during the 2016 season.

Guess what I found? In the ninth game of the 2016 season, coming out of a bye week, the Patriots (who normally were solid on defense) gave up 31 points to a Seattle Seahawks team that was only ranked 18th in offense. (if you're curious - Washington currently ranks #12 in offense). My point is that if by the standards we are looking at (giving up 30 points in a single game) somehow knocks a team out of this category, then the #1 defense last year doesn't fit the moniker of 'elite' either.

Let's take a look at some of the great defenses in NFL history
• In 2000, the Ravens gave up 36 to Jacksonville.
• In 1985, the Bears gave up 38 to the Dolphins.
• In 1976, the Pittsburgh Steelers gave up 30 to the Patriots.
• In 1971, our own Minnesota Vikings, one of the truly great defenses of all time (only 9.9 ppg allowed), gave up 30 to the 6-8 San Diego Chargers.

It is not unprecedented for a great defense to have a bad day.

And here's something of note. Of all the games listed above, only one of them resulted in a win for the defense that had a bad day. We won against Washington. I'm good with that.

(Fun note that I didn't know: The '71 Vikings had 57 takeaways in 14 games ... 27 interceptions and 30 fumbles recovered. Unbelievable!)
4 takeaways PER GAME?? Holy Odin.


Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:36 pm
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Post Re: Not elite
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Just Me wrote:
I started thinking about our defense (elite is just a subjective label IMHO) and wondered whether or not 1 game could (or should) make a difference in that assessment. I looked at last year's number 1 (source) defense 15.6 points per game (New England) and decided to look at individual games during the 2016 season.

Guess what I found? In the ninth game of the 2016 season, coming out of a bye week, the Patriots (who normally were solid on defense) gave up 31 points to a Seattle Seahawks team that was only ranked 18th in offense. (if you're curious - Washington currently ranks #12 in offense). My point is that if by the standards we are looking at (giving up 30 points in a single game) somehow knocks a team out of this category, then the #1 defense last year doesn't fit the moniker of 'elite' either.

Let's take a look at some of the great defenses in NFL history
• In 2000, the Ravens gave up 36 to Jacksonville.
• In 1985, the Bears gave up 38 to the Dolphins.
• In 1976, the Pittsburgh Steelers gave up 30 to the Patriots.
• In 1971, our own Minnesota Vikings, one of the truly great defenses of all time (only 9.9 ppg allowed), gave up 30 to the 6-8 San Diego Chargers.

It is not unprecedented for a great defense to have a bad day.

And here's something of note. Of all the games listed above, only one of them resulted in a win for the defense that had a bad day. We won against Washington. I'm good with that.

(Fun note that I didn't know: The '71 Vikings had 57 takeaways in 14 games ... 27 interceptions and 30 fumbles recovered. Unbelievable!)


Exactly. Which would make the OP saying this false:

VikingPaul73 wrote:
Elite Defenses just don't have games like this.


What was posted above proves that they do. There isnt much of a measure for elite defenses and great defense to be honest

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Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:07 pm
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Post Re: Not elite
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Exactly. Which would make the OP saying this false:

VikingPaul73 wrote:
Elite Defenses just don't have games like this.


What was posted above proves that they do. There isnt much of a measure for elite defenses and great defense to be honest
Good point, Mike. It's not easy to separate "really good", "great", and "elite". It will be a lot easier to decide after the season ends and we know how they react when the moments are the biggest!

I think we've made some good points, and I think VikingPaul73 probably understand that now without any of us piling on after we've already pulled out the statistics :) Nobody likes people harping on their mistakes, or at least, I know I wouldn't.


Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:24 pm
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Post Re: Not elite
This is the 'true #1 WR' conversation all over again lol

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Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:25 pm
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Post Re: Not elite
Cliff wrote:
This is the 'true #1 WR' conversation all over again lol


First off, don't remind me. UGH! Secondly, I'd like to think this particular topic has been taken behind the woodshed.

This defense held Big Ben to 87 yards of passing in a single half while getting zero help from it's offense. I'd call that elite.

For me it is tough to measure a defense in today's NFL using just stats. I used to swear by PA, but even that measure is dubious since the play of the offense can have baring on it. I remember this season after the game vs. NO that PFF was ripping Trae Waynes for allowing all these completions, yet most of them were in the 4Q when the defense was running cover 2 and wanted the Saints to complete passes in the middle of the field to run the clock. We had a multi-score lead thanks to our offense. The Saints also scored a meaningless TD. Those stats count against season totals, but are they are defense being beaten? I hardly think so.

I've found myself looking more and more at quality of opposition and how the team performed against the best teams. Ultimately in the playoffs, this is what matters. Can you beat another elite team when all the marbles are on the line? (This is also why Tom Brady is the GOAT QB. He performs when it matters most.)

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Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:11 pm
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