View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:55 am



Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
 Not elite 
Author Message
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:07 pm
Posts: 2923
Post Not elite
Not sure if the Vikings will win or lose today, but today is a great example of why this Viking D is good.....but not elite.

Elite Defenses just don't have games like this. Cousins and the Redskins are absolutely lighting them up. If not for a few drops, missed throws, and a WR trip at the goal line, the redskins could have 40+ points right now, early in the 4th!!!!!!!

Ohhhhh, but Griffen is injured!!!! blah, blah blah

NOT ELITE! weakness at EVERY level of defense (Tom Johnson, Gedeon, Waynes, Sendejo). ELITE Ds don't have this!


Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:41 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:07 pm
Posts: 2923
Post Re: Not elite
Tom Johnson with the HUGE 4th down stop!!!!

Perfect timing for my post :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:smilevike:


Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:54 pm
Profile
Pro Bowl Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:28 pm
Posts: 606
Post Re: Not elite
One bad game and here we go with the overreactions already....


Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:28 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:56 am
Posts: 5631
Post Re: Not elite
Well, scoring 38 points is pretty elite, right? That's more points than anybody scored on them in 8 games.

That's more points than the Chiefs, Eagles, Seahawks, Cowboys and Raiders.


Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:45 pm
Profile
Starting Wide Receiver
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:48 pm
Posts: 18357
Location: Crystal, MN
Post Re: Not elite
Boon wrote:
One bad game and here we go with the overreactions already....
It's not an overreaction. They have not been dominant all year, imo.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

_________________
The Devil whispered in the Viking's ear, "There's a storm coming." The Viking replied, "I am the storm." ‪#‎SKOL2017 #BringitHome‬


Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:00 pm
Profile YIM WWW
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:07 pm
Posts: 2923
Post Re: Not elite
Hunter Morrow wrote:
Well, scoring 38 points is pretty elite, right? That's more points than anybody scored on them in 8 games.

That's more points than the Chiefs, Eagles, Seahawks, Cowboys and Raiders.


Great game by offense, no doubt. Two bad decisions by Keenum - other than that a nearly flawless game.

But the post was about the D, not offense.

Your second sentence is incomplete so I'm not sure how to respond to it.


Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:27 pm
Profile
Pro Bowl Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:28 pm
Posts: 606
Post Re: Not elite
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Boon wrote:
One bad game and here we go with the overreactions already....
It's not an overreaction. They have not been dominant all year, imo.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk



So in orderto be considered dominant , you're saying they have to be #1 in everything? Because coming into this game this defense has been damn near top 5 in every statistical category, would be even higher minus the garbage time td's and drives. I dont get what you guys want. There are 28 other teams looking up at this defense, and given the scores so far this week they probably will stay top 5


Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:29 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Candidate
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:45 pm
Posts: 3305
Location: Hawaii
Post Re: Not elite
Boon wrote:
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Boon wrote:
One bad game and here we go with the overreactions already....
It's not an overreaction. They have not been dominant all year, imo.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk



So in orderto be considered dominant , you're saying they have to be #1 in everything? Because coming into this game this defense has been damn near top 5 in every statistical category, would be even higher minus the garbage time td's and drives. I dont get what you guys want. There are 28 other teams looking up at this defense, and given the scores so far this week they probably will stay top 5


Elite is just a label. I wouldnt put too much energy into it. This D is good enough to get to the SB IMO. Sometimes, games like this happen.

_________________
Joined: Aug 2006
Deleted: Sept 12 2014
Reborn: Sept 17 2014


Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:36 pm
Profile
Transition Player

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:03 pm
Posts: 358
Post Re: Not elite
Vikings made the right adjustments to win the game. Redskins are a good team dispite their record. Ibdont see the point of this post.


Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:58 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6900
Post Re: Not elite
Dmizzle0 wrote:
Vikings made the right adjustments to win the game. Redskins are a good team dispite their record. Ibdont see the point of this post.

Neither do I. "Elite" is simply a label, and the only label I'm interested in is "Super Bowl Champions."

Crazy games like this happen. Two weeks ago, Houston and Seattle, two teams with excellent defenses, put up a ton of points and yards against each other. The next week, the Redskins and Seahawks tried to see who could gain the fewest yards and still win.

Bottom line is that we won the game, and this defense IS good enough to get the Vikings deep into the playoffs. The question has been whether the offense could hold up. We just put up 38 on the road, but guess what? By itself, that doesn't prove anything, either.

You're good or bad depending on what you do over the long haul. This team is 7-2 and winning its division by 2 full games. I'm going out on a limb here and calling them pretty good.

_________________
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.


Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:22 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer

Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 pm
Posts: 8329
Post Re: Not elite
They are pretty good. They aernt what I would consider elite though. Too many missed tackles, Barr goes flying past Cousins twice without touching him (and I think Barr had a good game), too much bend but dont break for me. If the Skins made that onside kick, things could have been a lot different, with the way Cousins was hitting his receivers. And I just HATE the prevent defense. I know all the teams do it with the lead, but its almost like saying 'we dont trust our D, so we are playing with the safeties 100 yards in front of the play'. I think we could pad some of our D's numbers by play normal dime D. But I think the main thing about the D that concerns me is how they start out. They dont really look all that good until AFTER halftime adjustments.


Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:16 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:07 pm
Posts: 2923
Post Re: Not elite
You guys are right - the term "elite" is subjective so maybe we're just arguing over semantics. So to clarify my point of view:

An elite defense can win a super bowl with Jim McMahon, Trent dilfer, Brad Johnson, or Case Keenum


A good defense can win a super bowl with week 1 Sam Bradford


Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:41 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:56 am
Posts: 5631
Post Re: Not elite
VikingPaul73 wrote:
Hunter Morrow wrote:
Well, scoring 38 points is pretty elite, right? That's more points than anybody scored on them in 8 games.

That's more points than the Chiefs, Eagles, Seahawks, Cowboys and Raiders.


Great game by offense, no doubt. Two bad decisions by Keenum - other than that a nearly flawless game.

But the post was about the D, not offense.

Your second sentence is incomplete so I'm not sure how to respond to it.


Its an implied clause/enthymeme Ithink is the term for that?

(than those teams scored against the Redskins).

P1. If the Vikings aren't elite, why would they have scored 38 points?
P2. Teams others consider to be elite scored fewer points than that.
C. The Vikings are elite because even when the defense and special teams don't deliver, the offense has big time potential.


Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:01 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:13 am
Posts: 7305
Location: Ft Walton Beach, Florida
Post Re: Not elite
hard to say you have a dominant defense when game after game teams drive the ball down the field. While we are a good defense with a lot of talent in many places, we are not dominant very often. When people say Dominant I think of 85 bears, 2000 Ravens, 69 Vikings, 69 chiefs, 70s Steelers.


Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:10 pm
Profile
Starting Wide Receiver
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:48 pm
Posts: 18357
Location: Crystal, MN
Post Re: Not elite
Wasn't the original post about the defense, not about the team?

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

_________________
The Devil whispered in the Viking's ear, "There's a storm coming." The Viking replied, "I am the storm." ‪#‎SKOL2017 #BringitHome‬


Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:15 pm
Profile YIM WWW
Pro Bowl Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:28 pm
Posts: 606
Post Re: Not elite
Laserman wrote:
hard to say you have a dominant defense when game after game teams drive the ball down the field. While we are a good defense with a lot of talent in many places, we are not dominant very often. When people say Dominant I think of 85 bears, 2000 Ravens, 69 Vikings, 69 chiefs, 70s Steelers.

again, coming into this game they were third in the nfl in total defense, behind carolina and the jags, this completely horrible game dropped them waaaaay down to #5, clearly the #5 defense in the entire league is bleeding yards to every team all season


Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:45 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:07 pm
Posts: 2923
Post Re: Not elite
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Wasn't the original post about the defense, not about the team?

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk



Yes - I should have made it more clear


Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:28 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6900
Post Re: Not elite
Laserman wrote:
hard to say you have a dominant defense when game after game teams drive the ball down the field. While we are a good defense with a lot of talent in many places, we are not dominant very often. When people say Dominant I think of 85 bears, 2000 Ravens, 69 Vikings, 69 chiefs, 70s Steelers.

Except that teams haven't driven the ball down the field game after game.

Today was the first time any team gained more than 344 yards against the Vikings. That includes prevent defense in garbage time. For the five previous games before today, the Vikings had not surrendered more than 276 yards. In the modern NFL, that's pretty much dominant.

You say we don't compare favorably to elite defenses of the past. Well, let's take a look at the one stat that experts use more than any other -- yards per play allowed. We came into today tied for first in the NFL for the fewest yards per play allowed at just 4.6. In addition, that's 0.7 ypp below league average of 5.3. In 2000, the Baltimore Ravens gave up 4.3 yards per play, but league average was only 5.0 -- exactly the same 0.7 differential. In 1985, the Bears gave up 4.4 compared to 5.0 -- that's even less of a differential. Ironically, the one team your statement holds true for, at least using this metric, is the '69 Vikings, who gave up a ridiculous 3.4 yards per play, about 1.4 yards below league average.

So tell me ... what's elite? What's dominant? It's all relative, isn't it? And again, those terms just don't mean much when you're winning.

Here's something else that shows today was an outlier. The Redskins won time of possession easily today, and had the ball for 73 plays to our 60. Yet we scored 38 points, and virtually all of it because the offense scored quickly and scored often. How often does that happen to us? Normally when teams move up and down the field, they also give up more yards because the other team has more opportunities. Even so, we gained more than a half yard per play more than Washington did.

In a nutshell, we had a pretty bad game on defense, yet the offense put up 38 and we won on the road. So if y'all want to say the defense isn't elite, that's cool. As long as we keep winning, I'd say it's plenty good enough.

_________________
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.


Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:14 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 5204
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Not elite
808vikingsfan wrote:

Elite is just a label. I wouldnt put too much energy into it. This D is good enough to get to the SB IMO. Sometimes, games like this happen.


Agreed. But when fans say elite defense "don't have these kinds of games" is completely false. The 2000 ravens for example gave up 36 points to the Jags and Brunell threw all over them. Threw for 386 and 3 tds to be exact. A much better game than cousins played. They were down 17-0 after the first quarter. So let's get past that point trying to be proven because it's false.

We have an excellent defense. Maybe not that picky word "elite" but it's very good. And let's no forget if it wasn't for keenums 2 dumb picks, that's 10 less points for Washington.

Either way, elite defenses give up points and DO have games like this. It's happened many of times. Not saying ours is elite but I don't believe it's far off. No less we were without our best pass rusher. This defense is a SB defense. There is zero questioning that so why is this even a thread because a SB is all that matters

_________________
Image


Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:48 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Candidate
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:23 pm
Posts: 3199
Location: Sebastian, FL
Post Re: Not elite L
Let's take a look at this. The New England Patriots defense has been great since Belicheat took over. How good? Well since he took over the Pats defense has held other teams to an average of 18.85 points per game. Last year out of the 19 games they played they held their opponents to 17 points per game or less 13 times. And you know what, they had a game were they gave up 31 and another they gave up 28. It happens. 2000 Baltimore Ravens, averaged 10.5 points per game. Yet they had one game were the Jags scored 36 points on them. In the other 15 games the Ravens averaged 8.6 ppg on defense. I'm not worried about one game. Or even 2 or 3. It's going to happen. If you win half of those games you are doing well.

Since 1966.

Teams that have given up 17 points per game or less win 70% of the time.
Teams that have given up 17.1 to 21 points per game win 56% of the time.
Teams that have given up 21.1 to 24 points per game win 42% of the time.
Teams that have given up more than 24.1 points per game win 31% of the time.

_________________
Vikings fan since Nov. 6, 1966. Annoying Packer fans since Nov. 7, 1966


Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:55 am
Profile
Fenrir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Posts: 11120
Location: Hawaii
Post Re: Not elite
As long as this isn't a trend, I don't care. Also, at least one TD was on Keenum so not all the points were on the D.


Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:25 am
Profile
Hall of Fame Candidate

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Posts: 3436
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Post Re: Not elite
Definitely their worst defensive performance of the year, but they were playing without their best pass rusher and Rhodes was hobbled in the 2nd half.

Personally I'm glad they had a game like this. The offense bailed out the defense in this game and kept the pressure on. That hasn't happened in a game in a LONG time.

This team has guts, and it is beat a decent opponent on the road. That is something we can hang our hats on. WSH is easily a top half team in the NFL and might just squeak into the top 10. They beat SEA in SEA last week, no small feat. We just beat them in their own house. Great win and puts the Vikings on the road to proving they are more than just a result of a soft first half schedule.

The Ram are this week. I suspect if we beat them we'll start getting a lot of national attention. Ironically, the team we just beat had already beaten the Rams, but that is the sports media for you.

_________________
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi


Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:11 am
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6900
Post Re: Not elite
mansquatch wrote:
Definitely their worst defensive performance of the year, but they were playing without their best pass rusher and Rhodes was hobbled in the 2nd half.

Personally I'm glad they had a game like this. The offense bailed out the defense in this game and kept the pressure on. That hasn't happened in a game in a LONG time.

This team has guts, and it is beat a decent opponent on the road. That is something we can hang our hats on. WSH is easily a top half team in the NFL and might just squeak into the top 10. They beat SEA in SEA last week, no small feat. We just beat them in their own house. Great win and puts the Vikings on the road to proving they are more than just a result of a soft first half schedule.

The Ram are this week. I suspect if we beat them we'll start getting a lot of national attention. Ironically, the team we just beat had already beaten the Rams, but that is the sports media for you.

Interesting take here.

Before the Washington game, Mike Florio wrote that the Redskins are better than 4-4, and the Vikings are worse than 6-2. He continued, "It's correction Sunday in Washington." I can't wait to see what Florio has to say now. Nothing makes me happier than a national talking head being forced to eat his words, especially about the Vikings.

If we beat the Rams this coming Sunday, there is no doubt that the Minnesota Vikings HAVE to be part of the Super Bowl conversation. Maybe not the favorite -- that's likely still going to be Philadelphia. But in the conversation.

_________________
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.


Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:29 am
Profile
Backup

Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:29 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Post Re: Not elite
This defense might give up a nice drive or two throughout the game...and garbage yards and points at the end, but I really like them. They have a sense of nastiness to them-they hit hard (not that I want them to injure opposing players, but is seems like it happens a lot). Even when we don't pick up multiple sacks, it seems as though we are putting a good amount of pressure on opposing QBs. They are fun to watch, most of the time. Elite? Probably not. But they are capable of shutting any team down at any time and making a big play at any time (maybe that does qualify them as elite?).

_________________
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.


Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:22 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Candidate

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Posts: 3436
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Post Re: Not elite
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
If we beat the Rams this coming Sunday, there is no doubt that the Minnesota Vikings HAVE to be part of the Super Bowl conversation. Maybe not the favorite -- that's likely still going to be Philadelphia. But in the conversation.



Irrespective of whether it is right or wrong, we are starting a backup QB who has done nothing prior to this year. We also play in flyover country and up until yesterday the only big win on your schedule was week 1 when our starting QB was still healthy. In that respect it makes sense that we haven't been at the forefront of the NFC conversation.

Also, you have to consider the Sports Media itself: East Coast bias is a thing. So is the cult of the QB. We fail both of those tests. However, who cares? These are the same lemmings who thought GB was a SB team and think DAL is a contender. in both cases the flaws were easy to see if you watched them play. Maybe the tests aren't that accurate?

Enjoy the ride, in about 10 days we'll know if we are a legitimate threat in the playoffs. I predict 9-2 and belly full of Turkey, but I'm an optimist.

The scary thing is if the offense keeps playing like it did on Saturday and the defense rebounds 11-2 isn't out of the question. I'm thinking the entire playoffs go through US Bank. :govikes:

_________________
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi


Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:45 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6900
Post Re: Not elite
mansquatch wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
If we beat the Rams this coming Sunday, there is no doubt that the Minnesota Vikings HAVE to be part of the Super Bowl conversation. Maybe not the favorite -- that's likely still going to be Philadelphia. But in the conversation.



Irrespective of whether it is right or wrong, we are starting a backup QB who has done nothing prior to this year. We also play in flyover country and up until yesterday the only big win on your schedule was week 1 when our starting QB was still healthy. In that respect it makes sense that we haven't been at the forefront of the NFC conversation.

Also, you have to consider the Sports Media itself: East Coast bias is a thing. So is the cult of the QB. We fail both of those tests. However, who cares? These are the same lemmings who thought GB was a SB team and think DAL is a contender. in both cases the flaws were easy to see if you watched them play. Maybe the tests aren't that accurate?

Enjoy the ride, in about 10 days we'll know if we are a legitimate threat in the playoffs. I predict 9-2 and belly full of Turkey, but I'm an optimist.

The scary thing is if the offense keeps playing like it did on Saturday and the defense rebounds 11-2 isn't out of the question. I'm thinking the entire playoffs go through US Bank. :govikes:

Don't make me salivate before Thanksgiving.

_________________
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.


Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:50 pm
Profile
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:51 pm
Posts: 8262
Location: Kentucky
Post Re: Not elite
Really we're starting our 3rd string QB, aren't we? Lol

_________________
"Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." - Mike Tyson


Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:31 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Posts: 5709
Location: The Great White North
Post Re: Not elite
Would I like to see the defense lock teams down every game? Of course. Is that necessary for them to win every game? I hope not.

Let's put it this way - it's a team game with 3 phases, any of which can win, or lose, a game. While one phase can be consistently overwhelming and make up for flaws in the other two, in terms of winning and being able to win, the best teams can win in all three phases and can make up for bad games by one or even two of the phases.

Also, while the defense did struggle, they also came up big on a few 4th downs (Redskins had to go for it 4th five times in the game) and did a good job of getting off the field on 3rd down for the most part. It's really the big plays by the Redskins through the air and some of the failure to consistently stop the run that stood out from a defensive standpoint. Obviously, they'll want to button that up and not make a habit out of allowing that to happen again, but the offense and Forbath more than made up for it.


Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:37 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:41 pm
Posts: 6093
Post Re: Not elite
I started thinking about our defense (elite is just a subjective label IMHO) and wondered whether or not 1 game could (or should) make a difference in that assessment. I looked at last year's number 1 (source) defense 15.6 points per game (New England) and decided to look at individual games during the 2016 season.

Guess what I found? In the ninth game of the 2016 season, coming out of a bye week, the Patriots (who normally were solid on defense) gave up 31 points to a Seattle Seahawks team that was only ranked 18th in offense. (if you're curious - Washington currently ranks #12 in offense). My point is that if by the standards we are looking at (giving up 30 points in a single game) somehow knocks a team out of this category, then the #1 defense last year doesn't fit the moniker of 'elite' either.

_________________
I've told people a million times not to exaggerate!


Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:49 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6900
Post Re: Not elite
Just Me wrote:
I started thinking about our defense (elite is just a subjective label IMHO) and wondered whether or not 1 game could (or should) make a difference in that assessment. I looked at last year's number 1 (source) defense 15.6 points per game (New England) and decided to look at individual games during the 2016 season.

Guess what I found? In the ninth game of the 2016 season, coming out of a bye week, the Patriots (who normally were solid on defense) gave up 31 points to a Seattle Seahawks team that was only ranked 18th in offense. (if you're curious - Washington currently ranks #12 in offense). My point is that if by the standards we are looking at (giving up 30 points in a single game) somehow knocks a team out of this category, then the #1 defense last year doesn't fit the moniker of 'elite' either.

Let's take a look at some of the great defenses in NFL history
• In 2000, the Ravens gave up 36 to Jacksonville.
• In 1985, the Bears gave up 38 to the Dolphins.
• In 1976, the Pittsburgh Steelers gave up 30 to the Patriots.
• In 1971, our own Minnesota Vikings, one of the truly great defenses of all time (only 9.9 ppg allowed), gave up 30 to the 6-8 San Diego Chargers.

It is not unprecedented for a great defense to have a bad day.

And here's something of note. Of all the games listed above, only one of them resulted in a win for the defense that had a bad day. We won against Washington. I'm good with that.

(Fun note that I didn't know: The '71 Vikings had 57 takeaways in 14 games ... 27 interceptions and 30 fumbles recovered. Unbelievable!)

_________________
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.


Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:28 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.