Week 8 post game thoughts

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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:44 am

PurpleKoolaid wrote: I have been wondering if they stick with Case too, if either Sam or Teddy are ready to play. I think its a bad idea. Both Teddy and Sam will have rust, and will need to get in the swing of things ASAP. We have a shot at winning the division. And if any QB doesnt look ready, then we can switch back to Case. Its not a good scenario, but it may have to happen. When the first and second QBs are out at the same time, this is what happens. Plus, Rick is going to have to see Sam play again this year, to determine if hes worth the money hes probably going to want next year. What a mess :(
I wouldnt say its a mess. It's more about just making the right decisions from here on out. The big tell is going to be after the bye. Who is healthy and who isnt. This is honestly a perfect time for Teddy to come back because he gets an extra week of reps given the bye. Sam could be healthy by then too. It's all about playing our cards right but if worst comes to worst, start Case until that decision can be made. But I honestly dont see Case starting vs Washington
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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:26 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:It is arguable because you comparing him to a guy that's not even on an NFL team and was a converted fullback. Lesean McCoy, Jay Ajayi and Lamar Miller are all averaging under 4.0 YPC. 3.8, 3.4 and 3.6 in that order. I guess those teams must be making a mistake by leaving Matt Asiata on the streets. To say he isn't performing well is one thing but comparing him to Matt Asiata is a joke. Sorry but it is. It has nothing to do with me playing against him. It's just it's not hard to figure out that Latavius Murray is a better RB than Matt Asiata. Murray has actually started in this league, produced and went to a pro bowl. Asiata has only started by default and hardly ever produced. I honestly can't even believe I'm having this argument to be honest
You're having this argument because the guy you're defending isn't producing. I didn't say Matt Asiata is more talented than Latavius Murray. I'm saying Murray's not producing even at a Matt Asiata level for the Vikings.

You said the key word. "Has." That's past tense. He's had basically one good season. Even his paltry stats this year are highly skewed by the Baltimore game. In no other game has he averaged more than 3.0 YPC. He has 6 total receptions. Six.

You're right. Matt Asiata isn't on the roster. That's because we're paying Latavius Murray $8.5 million in guaranteed money to be the starter (I didn't mention the $15 million figure because that includes incentives he has absolutely no shot of reaching). And you talk about starting by default -- I'd say a blown ACL to Dalvin Cook would qualify, especially when you consider that Murray had no more than 3 carries in a game until Cook went down. Basically, he was third team behind Cook and McKinnon.

Third team. Sounds a lot like Matt Asiata.
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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:33 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: I wouldnt say its a mess. It's more about just making the right decisions from here on out. The big tell is going to be after the bye. Who is healthy and who isnt. This is honestly a perfect time for Teddy to come back because he gets an extra week of reps given the bye. Sam could be healthy by then too. It's all about playing our cards right but if worst comes to worst, start Case until that decision can be made. But I honestly dont see Case starting vs Washington
I think Case starts against Washintgon unless Sam is ready.

At this point, it sure seems like they'll ACTIVATE Teddy. But I can't see them starting him. Case has won four straight. Teddy hasn't played even a preseason game in nearly 16 months. Washington is a tough road opponent, and we need the win. This isn't the time to start Teddy Bridgewater.

If Sam is still inactive and Case underperforms or gets hurt, I could see Teddy getting in the game against Washington. But starting? Highly doubt it. Zimmer isn't prone to sentimentality or experimentation.
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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:48 am

S197 wrote:I just watched the highlights but Harris missed a key tackle on the Crowell TD run. Sendejo is more key to the defense that some may think. That said, it's good to see second string guys stepping up.

It's going to be an interesting couple weeks. I think they activate Teddy but run with Case for a bit longer. At least until a loss or two.
I was actually going to mention Harris. I think he has played very well replacing Sendejo. He is a very capable backup, imo. You are right though, the defense oddly doesn't look the same when Sendejo isn't playing.

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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:30 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: You're having this argument because the guy you're defending isn't producing. I didn't say Matt Asiata is more talented than Latavius Murray. I'm saying Murray's not producing even at a Matt Asiata level for the Vikings.

You said the key word. "Has." That's past tense. He's had basically one good season. Even his paltry stats this year are highly skewed by the Baltimore game. In no other game has he averaged more than 3.0 YPC. He has 6 total receptions. Six.

You're right. Matt Asiata isn't on the roster. That's because we're paying Latavius Murray $8.5 million in guaranteed money to be the starter (I didn't mention the $15 million figure because that includes incentives he has absolutely no shot of reaching). And you talk about starting by default -- I'd say a blown ACL to Dalvin Cook would qualify, especially when you consider that Murray had no more than 3 carries in a game until Cook went down. Basically, he was third team behind Cook and McKinnon.

Third team. Sounds a lot like Matt Asiata.
Him having 6 receptions isnt his fault. I mean he's caught everything thrown to him. He cant catch balls when they arent thrown to him.

And I know Asiata isnt on the roster. But I said he's not on A roster. Like not on any roster in the entire NFL. He was cut by Detroit who has next to nothing at RB. I also never said you said Asiata was more talented. But you're comparing the two. And no they arent comparable. You're comparing Murray's first 4 games as a Vikings getting legitimate carries to Matt Asiata in general. In New Orleans Adrian Peterson was terrible. Does that mean he compares to Matt Asiata?? No. No RB on this roster compares to Asiata because he was terrible. Literally never good, at any time in his career. Had zero vision, zero speed, zero elusiveness. Caught the ball decent. Good for him. But there is literally no comparison. At all.

I'm not saying Murray is putting up good numbers. That's what youre claiming that I'm defending. I simply said, to look at the Baltimore game. That's what he can do when he gets in a rhythm. He doesnt run well against Clevelands #4 ranked run defense and now all of the sudden he's being compared to Matt Asiata?? Thats ridiculous.

Like I said before, Murray is a solid RB. McKinnon is surprising everyone. They both have the potential to bust a game open. But in no way, shape or form does Latavius Murray compare to Matt Asiata. That I can guarantee and that is what I am defending. You can sprinkle in whatever else you want in there but thats what I was defending since yesterday and it started when you made that comparison.
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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:34 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: I think Case starts against Washintgon unless Sam is ready.

At this point, it sure seems like they'll ACTIVATE Teddy. But I can't see them starting him. Case has won four straight. Teddy hasn't played even a preseason game in nearly 16 months. Washington is a tough road opponent, and we need the win. This isn't the time to start Teddy Bridgewater.

If Sam is still inactive and Case underperforms or gets hurt, I could see Teddy getting in the game against Washington. But starting? Highly doubt it. Zimmer isn't prone to sentimentality or experimentation.
Well if thats the case then I have no clue when you think it's a good time to start Teddy. Out of our next 5 opponents, 4 are on the road all against tough teams and the one home game we have might be against the hottest team in football. This is the perfect time to get him in there (if we're going to at all) because he gets two full weeks of practice and reps. Either we do it now, or we do it at years end when it's playoff time and I wouldnt advise that at all.
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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by petev_sj » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:12 am

I guess I am the only one on this forum to say Case Keenum deserves more respect than he is getting. The Vikings are winning with him, at least give him the benefit of losing the job rather then take it from him and handing it over to an unknown situation. It could be the Bears game all over again.

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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:20 am

petev_sj wrote:I guess I am the only one on this forum to say Case Keenum deserves more respect than he is getting. The Vikings are winning with him, at least give him the benefit of losing the job rather then take it from him and handing it over to an unknown situation. It could be the Bears game all over again.

#TeamKeenum.
Oh I give the guy credit but he isnt taking us to the promise land. His play has slowly dipped over the past few weeks and his erratic passing is starting to show. Now is the time to do it. If we wait any longer and Keenum happens to crap the bed just before playoffs, do we want to throw in a rusty Teddy or rusty Bradford in then? I would hope not. Now is the time to do it.
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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:25 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Him having 6 receptions isnt his fault. I mean he's caught everything thrown to him. He cant catch balls when they arent thrown to him.

And I know Asiata isnt on the roster. But I said he's not on A roster. Like not on any roster in the entire NFL. He was cut by Detroit who has next to nothing at RB. I also never said you said Asiata was more talented. But you're comparing the two. And no they arent comparable. You're comparing Murray's first 4 games as a Vikings getting legitimate carries to Matt Asiata in general. In New Orleans Adrian Peterson was terrible. Does that mean he compares to Matt Asiata?? No. No RB on this roster compares to Asiata because he was terrible. Literally never good, at any time in his career. Had zero vision, zero speed, zero elusiveness. Caught the ball decent. Good for him. But there is literally no comparison. At all.

I'm not saying Murray is putting up good numbers. That's what youre claiming that I'm defending. I simply said, to look at the Baltimore game. That's what he can do when he gets in a rhythm. He doesnt run well against Clevelands #4 ranked run defense and now all of the sudden he's being compared to Matt Asiata?? Thats ridiculous.

Like I said before, Murray is a solid RB. McKinnon is surprising everyone. They both have the potential to bust a game open. But in no way, shape or form does Latavius Murray compare to Matt Asiata. That I can guarantee and that is what I am defending. You can sprinkle in whatever else you want in there but thats what I was defending since yesterday and it started when you made that comparison.
YOU ARE CHANGING THE ARGUMENT.

I NEVER said Matt Asiata is better than Latavius Murray. I have said every single time that Latavius Murray is PERFORMING WITH THE VIKINGS at a Matt Asiata level. That's all I said, and it's a fact that the numbers bear out. How on earth can you not see that? Stop changing what I'm saying!

Done with this conversation. When Murray starts performing consistently instead of going down whenever a 189-pound DB touches his shoe, I'll give him his due ... just like I did when he actually had his one good game out of eight.
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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:50 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Well if thats the case then I have no clue when you think it's a good time to start Teddy. Out of our next 5 opponents, 4 are on the road all against tough teams and the one home game we have might be against the hottest team in football. This is the perfect time to get him in there (if we're going to at all) because he gets two full weeks of practice and reps. Either we do it now, or we do it at years end when it's playoff time and I wouldnt advise that at all.
OK, let me spell out my opinion for you and back it with a few facts.

The Vikings should not start Teddy Bridgewater unless Case Keenum and Sam Bradford are either unavailable or ineffective. That's my belief.

And they especially should not start him in the middle of a 6-2 season against a quality opponent on the road. I don't think it's appropriate to "see what you have with Teddy" in the middle of a potential playoff run. To sum it up, AT NO TIME should they start Teddy Bridgewater simply because he's healthy enough to start. That's what I'm saying.

My facts to support Case are as follows. He is winning football games. He is 4-2 as a starter, and if this were baseball, he'd have gotten the win in relief against Chicago. So for all intents and purposes, he's 5-2. He's taking care of the football, with 3 picks in 7 games (16% better than league average) and no fumbles. He's only been sacked 5 times, which is 30% better than league average. He's not lighting the world on fire with YPA or QBR, but 88.0 is right at league average. I didn't think he had a particularly good game yesterday, but when the dust settled, the man had converted four third downs of 9 yards or longer, and the Vikings had scored 33 points on seven scoring drives. That is absolutely stellar, especially against a team that's pretty good defensively, and especially with our defense behind him.

So there you go. I just shared my opinion. Opinions are part of the board. I also offered a few facts to support my opinion -- Case is playing good football, he's keeping turnovers to a minimum, and he's winning. They're not the strongest facts I've ever seen, but they do make my opinion a little stronger than it would be if I hadn't supported it. And if my opinion turns out to be wrong, I'll own it. I've proven that -- to you, actually.

You obviously believe Teddy should start against Washington over Keenum if he's ready. So help me out here. Why? What are the facts to support your case that Teddy would out-play Case Keenum at this point, without having seen the field in 16 months, in an important road game against a quality opponent?
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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:34 pm

Good post Kapp. Honestly Bradford would need to be 100% before I would start him, assuming Case keeps playing like he is. It's absurd to start teddy this season unless Sam and Case are both hurt.
Keep in mind too, if Teddy doesn't play this year, his contract automatically extends for a season. Right now, none of out qbs are signed after this season. That's a big, big problem. It isn't inconceivable to suggest that all three qbs will be on different teams next season. There is way more risk, and I am not convinced there is enough of a elreward, to playing teddy this season.

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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:35 pm

To be clear, I see PHPs point as well, I just don't think it is worth it right now.

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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:10 pm

I said......
I also never said you said Asiata was more talented. But you're comparing the two. And no they arent comparable.
and you said.....
YOU ARE CHANGING THE ARGUMENT.

I NEVER said Matt Asiata is better than Latavius Murray. I have said every single time that Latavius Murray is PERFORMING WITH THE VIKINGS at a Matt Asiata level. That's all I said, and it's a fact that the numbers bear out. How on earth can you not see that? Stop changing what I'm saying!
There is no change in argument. Again, I never said "You said Asiata was better". I have said that multiple times now. I just said they arent comparable in any way IMO.
Done with this conversation. When Murray starts performing consistently instead of going down whenever a 189-pound DB touches his shoe, I'll give him his due ... just like I did when he actually had his one good game out of eight.
Are you really going to count all 8 games?? Dalvin Cook was the clear starter. Where was McKinnon the first 4 games......returning kicks? So in all fairness, why are we even counting the first 4 games for either back. I look at the last 4 when they got legitimate opportunity. McKinnon ran the ball better in 3 out of the 4. We have a 4 game sample size here. Not much to work off of. Either way, you know why this all started. I have no problem being done with this convo because we're talking ourselves in circles at this point
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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:15 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:Good post Kapp. Honestly Bradford would need to be 100% before I would start him, assuming Case keeps playing like he is. It's absurd to start teddy this season unless Sam and Case are both hurt.
Keep in mind too, if Teddy doesn't play this year, his contract automatically extends for a season. Right now, none of out qbs are signed after this season. That's a big, big problem. It isn't inconceivable to suggest that all three qbs will be on different teams next season. There is way more risk, and I am not convinced there is enough of a elreward, to playing teddy this season.

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Yeah, you're getting into an area with contracts that I hadn't even broached.

You're right -- if Teddy plays, he's not under contract for next season. So playing him at all sets up a dicey situation. On one hand, if he plays well, he might end up elsewhere because teams will bid for him. If he plays poorly, we're still without a quarterback under contract. If we don't give him an opportunity, he might take offense and hurt our chances to sign him long-term. It gets complicated.

I think the team needs to take care of right now. This season. We're in this thing. We're 1.5 games in front of the division. We're a game back of Philly for the best record in the NFC. And no team in the NFC is really setting itself apart as the Super Bowl favorite. The Eagles have the best record and are playing well, but look at their opponents. Six of their wins (Washington (2), the Giants, the Cardinals, the Chargers and the 49ers) have been earned against teams with losing records. There is no clear-cut favorite in the NFC, which makes the Vikings' chances at a deep playoff run greater -- especially if we can get a home playoff game or the best record, which is still within reach.

That's why I say they shouldn't experiment to see what they have with Teddy. It has nothing to do with how I feel about Teddy as a quarterback. It has everything to do with winning this division and getting home field in the playoffs. If we were 3-5 and struggling, I'd say sure, give Teddy a chance to spark us. But when a guy is 5-2 and playing well, stick with him until he's hurt or ineffective. If that happens, I'd be fine with Teddy getting his opportunity, especially if Bradford hasn't proved that he's ready to play effectively.
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Re: Week 8 post game thoughts

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:28 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:There is no change in argument. Again, I never said "You said Asiata was better". I have said that multiple times now. I just said they arent comparable in any way IMO.
THERE IT IS! The magic words. "In my opinion."

I lied. Not finished with this conversation. Just because you said there's no comparison, I'm going to compare.

Matt Asiata, first 8 games of 2016
Att 64
Yards 227
YPA 3.6
Rec 17
Yards 148
YPC 8.7
Total yards from scrimmage 375
Total TDs 2

Latavius Murray, first 8 games of 2017
Att 78
Yards 249
YPA 3.2
Rec 6
Yards 38
YPC 6.3
Total yards from scrimmage 287
Total TDs 1

Come to think of it, you're right. There IS no comparison!
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