Sam-Teddy-Case thread

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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by tmscr » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:10 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote: But we do need a guy who threw back to back INT's, one of which was a pick 6? Keep in mind Teddy has NEVER seen an Oline like this, nor played with WR's playing like they are now. I think Teddy can shake the rust off soon, I am guessing Zimmer thinks the same thing.
The INTs happen. His first 4 games he had none, now he’s had 5 in his last 4, which is a bit concerning but not terribly so.

What if they start teddy for a few games and he stinks it up? How short of a leash does he have? Then they pull him and put case back in, now you have two guys playing with the other guy breathing down his neck. I do agree that teddy needs meaningful playing time whether he’s going to start or not. I just don’t think that time is now.
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by TSonn » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:59 am

What's really interesting about Case playing so well is maybe it isn't about Case as much as it is about the offensive system we have right now. Case is doing great and playing the best of his 5 year career - is it possible that he's improved drastically in year 5? Sure. But Bradford also had a career game in his first game with a full offseasson in this Pat Schurmur system with these players.

Maybe it's actually more likely that this system and the players we have for this system will make an average QB look good (Case) and a good QB look great (Teddy)? That's probably what Zimmer is struggling with right now in the Case vs. Teddy debate. We're playing winning football right now which is great but potentially starting Teddy would put us in another league.
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by dead_poet » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:29 am

TSonn wrote:What's really interesting about Case playing so well is maybe it isn't about Case as much as it is about the offensive system we have right now. Case is doing great and playing the best of his 5 year career - is it possible that he's improved drastically in year 5? Sure. But Bradford also had a career game in his first game with a full offseasson in this Pat Schurmur system with these players.

Maybe it's actually more likely that this system and the players we have for this system will make an average QB look good (Case) and a good QB look great (Teddy)? That's probably what Zimmer is struggling with right now in the Case vs. Teddy debate. We're playing winning football right now which is great but potentially starting Teddy would put us in another league.
Over the last two weeks I've thought about this a LOT. Thanks for posting so I didn't have to. It's an interesting theory.
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:41 pm

dead_poet wrote: Over the last two weeks I've thought about this a LOT. Thanks for posting so I didn't have to. It's an interesting theory.
Definitely. I was thinking this morning about how great Pat Shurmur has been this year. He started out with Sam as his QB and designed a system that obviously worked for Sam, given his amazing opening-night game. But then Sam went down.

If you recall that first game against Pittsburgh, Case didn't know until the morning of the game that he was starting. So he essentially was forced to play in a system designed for Sam, a classic strong-armed, throw-from-the-spot type of quarterback.

Fast forward to now. Sam has been gone for weeks, and Shurmur has adjusted his system brilliantly to suit Case Keenum's strengths ... his ability to move inside and outside of the pocket, his willingness to push the ball down the field when it's there, his ability to play against the blitz, his efficiency with play-action, etc. Shurmur has not only designed a system that's perfect for Case, he's calling one great game after another.

Add in an O-line that's playing out of its mind and a running game that hasn't missed a beat post-Cook, and you have an extremely efficient offense.

Pat Shurmur deserves a lot of credit for the improvement in Case Keenum.
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:41 pm

dead_poet wrote: Over the last two weeks I've thought about this a LOT. Thanks for posting so I didn't have to. It's an interesting theory.
I think teddy would do well, my concern is can he be healthy enough. I would love for the Vikings to be up by 30 going into the 4th quarter so that Teddy could get his feet wet. I would still start Case, but we could see what teddy can do in this offense.

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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by VikingLord » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:10 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:I think teddy would do well, my concern is can he be healthy enough. I would love for the Vikings to be up by 30 going into the 4th quarter so that Teddy could get his feet wet. I would still start Case, but we could see what teddy can do in this offense.

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Interesting theory, but I watched Gabbert with the Cardinals yesterday and there is a LOT to be said about decision-making, timing and accuracy. No system, however well-considered, is going to make up for a QB who can't execute in the system. While Shurmer deserves a lot of credit for the performance of the offense and Keenum's teammates on both sides of the ball have been outstanding, I think Keenum has shown himself to be a very cool customer and has displayed a lot of maturity running that offense. I don't know how Bridgewater would perform in it, but Keenum deserves credit for his play, preparation, and willingness to trust his receivers to make plays on contested balls.

As far as being up by 30, while that would be awesome, if it happens in any of the next 3 weeks I will be shocked with 3 away games against teams with winning records. If the Vikes destroy any of those teams by close to that amount we're looking at what could be one of the best teams in Vikings history.

I think the first we might get a glimpse of Bridgewater would be the home game against the Bears. Of course, the Bears could always play a spoiler at this point, but they have struggled all year and the game is in Minnesota. If there were a game remaining on the schedule where I could see the Vikes get a comfortable lead heading into the 4th it is that one.
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by DK Sweets » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:53 pm

dead_poet wrote: Over the last two weeks I've thought about this a LOT. Thanks for posting so I didn't have to. It's an interesting theory.
This has been my thought as well, and Case is making it a tougher call for me.
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:49 pm

DK Sweets wrote:This has been my thought as well, and Case is making it a tougher call for me.
Honestly, after the way he played the second half against the Browns, the game against Washington, and the Rams game, the call is easy for me. Stick with Case. Period.

In fact, if he keeps playing like this, the question might not be whether he starts the rest of this season, but whether they re-sign him to be the starter. I know, y'all prolly think I'm nuts, but Teddy is not under contract after this year. If he doesn't get a chance to play before the end of the season, he might just walk. Or if he plays ineffectively, then what? We're not going to be drafting high, but even if we were, are you gonna put THIS team in the hands of a rookie?

If Teddy doesn't re-sign, then we're looking at a free agent like Kirk Cousins, who will likely cost $25 million a year or more on a long-term deal and hasn't proven he can win big games. Suddenly Case Keenum, who is showing plenty of signs of a winner, isn't looking all that bad.

And while I suppose I'm in the minority on this, yes, I DO believe players can improve in Year 5. I mean, it's not like Case Keenum hasn't shown flashes in the past. He's had big games, especially for Houston. You don't do what he's done lately without some ability. Call it system all you want, but the Vikings are among the league leaders in explosive plays. His accuracy and ball placement have gotten better and better. I see plenty of improvement.

Four weeks ago, I was frustrated with Keenum. But he's been bringing it. Don't be surprised if he finishes out the season as the No. 1.
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by DK Sweets » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:58 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:Honestly, after the way he played the second half against the Browns, the game against Washington, and the Rams game, the call is easy for me. Stick with Case. Period.

In fact, if he keeps playing like this, the question might not be whether he starts the rest of this season, but whether they re-sign him to be the starter. I know, y'all prolly think I'm nuts, but Teddy is not under contract after this year. If he doesn't get a chance to play before the end of the season, he might just walk. Or if he plays ineffectively, then what? We're not going to be drafting high, but even if we were, are you gonna put THIS team in the hands of a rookie?

If Teddy doesn't re-sign, then we're looking at a free agent like Kirk Cousins, who will likely cost $25 million a year or more on a long-term deal and hasn't proven he can win big games. Suddenly Case Keenum, who is showing plenty of signs of a winner, isn't looking all that bad.

And while I suppose I'm in the minority on this, yes, I DO believe players can improve in Year 5. I mean, it's not like Case Keenum hasn't shown flashes in the past. He's had big games, especially for Houston. You don't do what he's done lately without some ability. Call it system all you want, but the Vikings are among the league leaders in explosive plays. His accuracy and ball placement have gotten better and better. I see plenty of improvement.

Four weeks ago, I was frustrated with Keenum. But he's been bringing it. Don't be surprised if he finishes out the season as the No. 1.
I think a lot of us are afraid that we have a Nick Foles situation on our hands. Yeah, our backup has played really well, but is he the catalyst or is he one of the beneficiaries of other players playing well in a good scheme?

I'm not here to say you're wrong...I see the same things you see. Case is playing just as well ads Nick Foles did in 2014. I still wonder if Teddy couldn't play even better than Case is playing right now if given an opportunity in the same system.

I guess my main concern is that this could end up going like Flutie/Johnson for the Bills in 99, this could be a more extended version of Griese/Morrall for the Dolphins in 72, or this could go like Bledsoe/Brady in 01...it could go any number of different ways. I'm skeptical of anybody saying they clearly see which direction we should move at this point.

EDIT: The Griese/Morrall example is the most interesting situation to me. If you can bench a former MVP, two time Super Bowl champion veteran who won every game he plays for you...you can bench anybody if you believe in your guy. I think this debate is more about how much you trust Teddy than any other factor.

EDIT 2: I did some more research and saw Morrall was pulled for lackluster play. I'm gonna leave my post the way it was for two reasons: 1) Every now and then it's nice to leave a testament for how wrong I can be and 2) if Keenum DOES falter, putting Bridgewater in is not an unprecedented move. Ballsy, but not unprecedented.
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:40 pm

DK Sweets wrote:I think a lot of us are afraid that we have a Nick Foles situation on our hands. Yeah, our backup has played really well, but is he the catalyst or is he one of the beneficiaries of other players playing well in a good scheme?

I'm not here to say you're wrong...I see the same things you see. Case is playing just as well ads Nick Foles did in 2014. I still wonder if Teddy couldn't play even better than Case is playing right now if given an opportunity in the same system.

I guess my main concern is that this could end up going like Flutie/Johnson for the Bills in 99, this could be a more extended version of Griese/Morrall for the Dolphins in 72, or this could go like Bledsoe/Brady in 01...it could go any number of different ways. I'm skeptical of anybody saying they clearly see which direction we should move at this point.

EDIT: The Griese/Morrall example is the most interesting situation to me. If you can bench a former MVP, two time Super Bowl champion veteran who won every game he plays for you...you can bench anybody if you believe in your guy. I think this debate is more about how much you trust Teddy than any other factor.

EDIT 2: I did some more research and saw Morrall was pulled for lackluster play. I'm gonna leave my post the way it was for two reasons: 1) Every now and then it's nice to leave a testament for how wrong I can be and 2) if Keenum DOES falter, putting Bridgewater in is not an unprecedented move. Ballsy, but not unprecedented.
It's really interesting, isn't it?

For every Wally Pipp to Lou Gehrig story, there are 100 Nick Foles stories. There truly is no way to tell, although history shows us that the odds are long for Case Keenum to become a franchise quarterback.

And I'm not here petitioning for Case Keenum to be the long-term answer at quarterback for the Minnesota Vikings. I'm just presenting scenarios. The team decided way back in the spring not to pick up Teddy's year-5 option. If you could pump Rick Spielman full of truth serum, he'd probably tell you it was probably because even THE VIKINGS didn't think Teddy would make it back. Not only that, the Vikings thought they had a rejuvenated Sam Bradford to man the helm. No matter the reasons, their declining his 5th year option has set up a potential mess here. Case Keenum has led the Vikings to 6 straight wins. He's playing exceptionally well right now. How do you realistically bench him for Teddy Bridgewater at this point? The Vikings can take a 3-game lead with 5 to play by beating Detroit. They are one game behind Philly for the No. 1 seed. The only way you risk blowing all that is if Case Keenum falters or suffers an injury.

If Case weren't playing as well as he is, the answer would be easy. Hand the ball to Teddy. But if Case weren't playing as well as he is, the Vikings probably wouldn't be 8-2.

Now look ahead to next year. Teddy doesn't seem like the vindictive type, but say he decides the Vikings have dissed him by a) not picking up his 5th year option, and b) not giving him a chance to win back the starting job. It's possible he says, "I worked my tail off, stayed in Minnesota, rehabbed my a$$ off, went to every meeting, was the greatest teammate known to man, made it back ... and they didn't let me play!" What then? Is it possible he'd leave? If so, there would be plenty of suitors for the services of a recent division-winning quarterback. "Welcome to the season opener here in Orchard Park, NY, where the Buffalo Bills will start their new quarterback, Teddy Bridgewater, the former Viking. The Bills are confident he'll be an upgrade over Nathan '5 Pick' Peterman, whose play reminds us more of Mr. Peterman from Seinfeld than an actual NFL quarterback."

In that situation, Case Keenum might actually be our best option.

Or what if Case defies the odds and gets us all the way to the Super Bowl or even the NFCC Game? Does our collective opinion of him change? Is he still "not the quarterback to get us to the Super Bowl" if he actually DOES get us to the Super Bowl? Cuz I can tell you this ... while Case Keenum might in fact turn out to be Nick Foles of 2013, he is definitely NOT Trent Dilfer of 2000. He's better than that by a mile.

So I guess my point is that short-term is easy. Stick with the hot hand. Long-term ... sticking with Case might be a sticky wicket.
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by Just Me » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:51 pm

Kapp, I hear ya and agree. There's this little part of me that remembers a 1998 Randal Cunningham and a 1999 Randall Cunningham, though. Even if Case makes it to the "big dance," this year how do we evaluate whether or not it was a 'fluke' ala the 1998 vs 1999 Cunningham. Will/would case perform as well next year?
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:16 pm

I will forever blame 1999 Cunningham on Ray Sherman. He was the worst OC the Vikings ever had. He turned the original Best Show 9n Turf and made them almost incompetent.

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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by dead_poet » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:39 pm

Another thought:

What if Sam would've kept his leg from falling off until last week? Or, alternatively, what if the Vikings wouldn't have put Teddy on the PUP? In either scenario, there's a fair-to-good chance Teddy would be the one having this success. But obviously we'll never know. I thought Sam would need an injury for Teddy to have a chance. I never thought he'd be blocked from returning to the starting lineup by Case. What in the world?

As well as he's playing right now, I'm having an extremely hard time picturing how Case Keenum is our starter in 2018. Would the Vikings try to re-sign both to modest, one-year contracts and let them duke it out in camp/preseason? I can't imagine Case being paid $15-$20 million/year to be some team's unquestioned starter. Given his history, at the most he'd enter as the incumbent to a rookie. Given his success under Shurmer, why would he want to mess with that? I can see Teddy exploring his options, but the truth is he has zero tape to prove he's back or anywhere near what he was. The only team that knows where he is is Minnesota. That complicates things for any outside GM. Gambling on an unknown like Teddy would be a difficult decision. Like my Case scenario above, I'd guess any team that would sign Teddy would also be signing a rookie high to compete.

Given what I've read from Zimmer, I can't imagine he would want to let Teddy go and possibly start the season with Case and/or another rookie. You can tell by the way Zimmer talks about him he really likes the guy (it's hard not to). Given how much the fan base loves Teddy as well and I'd be a little shocked if he was elsewhere in 2018.

This is such a WEIRD problem to have.
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:43 pm

Just Me wrote:Kapp, I hear ya and agree. There's this little part of me that remembers a 1998 Randal Cunningham and a 1999 Randall Cunningham, though. Even if Case makes it to the "big dance," this year how do we evaluate whether or not it was a 'fluke' ala the 1998 vs 1999 Cunningham. Will/would case perform as well next year?
It's definitely a tough question with no answer at this point.

I do know this. If Case gets us a Lombardi Trophy, I wouldn't care if he ever played another down ... he'd be my favorite Vikings quarterback of all time. I've been a Vikings fan since 1969. I don't want to end up like so many Cubs fans who lived to be 90 and never saw them win the big one.
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Re: Sam-Teddy-Case thread

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:54 pm

dead_poet wrote:Another thought:

What if Sam would've kept his leg from falling off until last week? Or, alternatively, what if the Vikings wouldn't have put Teddy on the PUP? In either scenario, there's a fair-to-good chance Teddy would be the one having this success. But obviously we'll never know. I thought Sam would need an injury for Teddy to have a chance. I never thought he'd be blocked from returning to the starting lineup by Case. What in the world?

As well as he's playing right now, I'm having an extremely hard time picturing how Case Keenum is our starter in 2018. Would the Vikings try to re-sign both to modest, one-year contracts and let them duke it out in camp/preseason? I can't imagine Case being paid $15-$20 million/year to be some team's unquestioned starter. Given his history, at the most he'd enter as the incumbent to a rookie. Given his success under Shurmer, why would he want to mess with that? I can see Teddy exploring his options, but the truth is he has zero tape to prove he's back or anywhere near what he was. The only team that knows where he is is Minnesota. That complicates things for any outside GM. Gambling on an unknown like Teddy would be a difficult decision. Like my Case scenario above, I'd guess any team that would sign Teddy would also be signing a rookie high to compete.

Given what I've read from Zimmer, I can't imagine he would want to let Teddy go and possibly start 2019 with Case and/or another rookie. You can tell by the way Zimmer talks about him he really likes the guy (it's hard not to). Given how much the fan base loves Teddy as well and I'd be a little shocked if he was elsewhere in 2019.

This is such a WEIRD problem to have.
It is one of the oddest scenarios I've seen. If someone told me at the beginning of the season that one of out three qbs would lead us to a 8-2 record, Case would have been my third choice (pretending teddy wasn't on IR). It has been an incredible ride,

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