Bradfords knee??

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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by dead_poet » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:32 pm

S197 wrote: While I don't dislike Spielman anywhere near the level that you do, I do agree that his refusal to draft a mid-round QB has also been a criticism of mine. It seems like our QB's are 1st rounders or UDFA's with nothing in between. And not just last year, every year from what I can recall. It goes back to Favre, how the heck do you have a 40 year-old QB and no contingency plan? The guy is 40!

Seriously, who was the last QB taken in the mid-rounds? Please tell me it wasn't John David Booty. And no, Joe Webb doesn't count.
Does that really matter in the larger scheme of things? How often do QBs "hit" in the mid-rounds? I'm guessing less likely than other position groups. What's wrong with going the route of a vet backup like Keenum for the #2 spot and trying to develop a later-round guy? I suppose your "hit rate" even for a backup is lower. Still, I guess I'm in the camp of drafting a QB in R1-2 until you get your guy and spend rest of the draft capital elsewhere at a position that may have a higher hit rate and greater chance at playing time.

Again, that's just my strategy. I'm not sure one way is really that much better than another. It's all pretty much a crapshoot after the first couple of rounds. YMMV.
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:06 pm

My thing comparing Teddy to Sam is that yes, I'll always be a Teddy fan but fans seem to forget, Teddy threw 28 tds in 2 years. Sam threw 20 in 15 games last year and only 5 picks compared to Teddys 9 and 12. Sam is also much more accurate than Teddy proving that again last year and has a stronger arm. When you put the two next to each other it's a no brainer that Sam is the better QB. Teddy is a winner, has great intangibles and can scramble but he's nowhere near the arm talent Sam is and Sam protects the football better no less has a quicker release.

If I had a choice I pick a healthy Sam over a healthy Teddy any day of the week. But it just baffles me when guys say they are "Teddy" guys and say Sam is a bum and not worth a first. If you're a Teddy guy, why wouldn't you like Sam after looking at what I posted above?? I feel for Sam because he got a bad rep in St Louis but also played on horrid teams. He is a MUCH better QB than people think. Guys always say he can't win and all that stuff but put Teddy on those Rams teams. Is he winning? I can tell you now, no. They were terrible on both sides of the ball.

All in all, Teddy has shown no more than Sam ever has. Probably even less than Sam has. I like both QBs and think we can win with either one if the chips fall in our favor for once. This offseason will be interesting. Loaded QB class but it's no guarantee we land a good one so if Teddy proves to be healthy, I think we need to at least resign one of them and then draft one. I'm not up for going in to the draft blind without Teddy or Sam. A move like that could put us back in the gutter again. We need Teddy or Sam to start 2-3 years and then see if the rookie can take over in the meantime.
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by Alaskan » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:23 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:My thing comparing Teddy to Sam is that yes, I'll always be a Teddy fan but fans seem to forget, Teddy threw 28 tds in 2 years. Sam threw 20 in 15 games last year and only 5 picks compared to Teddys 9 and 12. Sam is also much more accurate than Teddy proving that again last year and has a stronger arm. When you put the two next to each other it's a no brainer that Sam is the better QB. Teddy is a winner, has great intangibles and can scramble but he's nowhere near the arm talent Sam is and Sam protects the football better no less has a quicker release.

If I had a choice I pick a healthy Sam over a healthy Teddy any day of the week. But it just baffles me when guys say they are "Teddy" guys and say Sam is a bum and not worth a first. If you're a Teddy guy, why wouldn't you like Sam after looking at what I posted above?? I feel for Sam because he got a bad rep in St Louis but also played on horrid teams. He is a MUCH better QB than people think. Guys always say he can't win and all that stuff but put Teddy on those Rams teams. Is he winning? I can tell you now, no. They were terrible on both sides of the ball.

All in all, Teddy has shown no more than Sam ever has. Probably even less than Sam has. I like both QBs and think we can win with either one if the chips fall in our favor for once. This offseason will be interesting. Loaded QB class but it's no guarantee we land a good one so if Teddy proves to be healthy, I think we need to at least resign one of them and then draft one. I'm not up for going in to the draft blind without Teddy or Sam. A move like that could put us back in the gutter again. We need Teddy or Sam to start 2-3 years and then see if the rookie can take over in the meantime.
I agree with your analysis on the subject. However, this knee issue with Bradford is kind of spooky. I like them both. I think they can both lead a super bowl run, but neither is worth Stafford, Rodgers etc.... money. They need to be able to sign team friendly deals with there injury historys. They both need more weapons than the elite guys to be as successful. And it will also allow us to keep the defense together. I really would prefer Bridgwater if he can come back somewhere near where he was before the injury. The mobility is such an asset. Sinking some serious draft capital in a top teir QB in this draft would be a really good option IMO.
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by FullWood » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:57 am

720pete wrote: We've been looking into drafting a franchise QB since Daunte Culpepper blew out his knee in 2005.
Potentially we did with Tavaris Jackson, Christian Ponder and Teddy Bridgewater.
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by 808vikingsfan » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:02 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:My thing comparing Teddy to Sam is that yes, I'll always be a Teddy fan but fans seem to forget, Teddy threw 28 tds in 2 years. Sam threw 20 in 15 games last year and only 5 picks compared to Teddys 9 and 12. Sam is also much more accurate than Teddy proving that again last year and has a stronger arm. When you put the two next to each other it's a no brainer that Sam is the better QB. Teddy is a winner, has great intangibles and can scramble but he's nowhere near the arm talent Sam is and Sam protects the football better no less has a quicker release.

If I had a choice I pick a healthy Sam over a healthy Teddy any day of the week. But it just baffles me when guys say they are "Teddy" guys and say Sam is a bum and not worth a first. If you're a Teddy guy, why wouldn't you like Sam after looking at what I posted above?? I feel for Sam because he got a bad rep in St Louis but also played on horrid teams. He is a MUCH better QB than people think. Guys always say he can't win and all that stuff but put Teddy on those Rams teams. Is he winning? I can tell you now, no. They were terrible on both sides of the ball.

All in all, Teddy has shown no more than Sam ever has. Probably even less than Sam has. I like both QBs and think we can win with either one if the chips fall in our favor for once. This offseason will be interesting. Loaded QB class but it's no guarantee we land a good one so if Teddy proves to be healthy, I think we need to at least resign one of them and then draft one. I'm not up for going in to the draft blind without Teddy or Sam. A move like that could put us back in the gutter again. We need Teddy or Sam to start 2-3 years and then see if the rookie can take over in the meantime.
I'd compare Sam's first 2 years to Bridgewater's first 2 to be fair (Bradford 24TD, 24INT vs Bridgewater 28TD 21INT). Also, the Rams were not terrible. They had a pro bowl RB in Steven Jackson, defense actually ranked #10 in scoring in 2010. I won't argue that Sam will have better stats. He's definitely the better passer. Not sure if he's a better QB though. The jury is still out on Bradford on how he'll play in meaningful games when the game is on the line. Also,I cannot stress enough how important it is to have QB that can extend plays when things break down. 1 or 2 of these plays can make the difference between winning and losing.

Argument may be moot if neither can come back and play at 100%.
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by FireSpieldope » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:46 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:My thing comparing Teddy to Sam is that yes, I'll always be a Teddy fan but fans seem to forget, Teddy threw 28 tds in 2 years. Sam threw 20 in 15 games last year and only 5 picks compared to Teddys 9 and 12. Sam is also much more accurate than Teddy proving that again last year and has a stronger arm. When you put the two next to each other it's a no brainer that Sam is the better QB. Teddy is a winner, has great intangibles and can scramble but he's nowhere near the arm talent Sam is and Sam protects the football better no less has a quicker release.

If I had a choice I pick a healthy Sam over a healthy Teddy any day of the week. But it just baffles me when guys say they are "Teddy" guys and say Sam is a bum and not worth a first. If you're a Teddy guy, why wouldn't you like Sam after looking at what I posted above?? I feel for Sam because he got a bad rep in St Louis but also played on horrid teams. He is a MUCH better QB than people think. Guys always say he can't win and all that stuff but put Teddy on those Rams teams. Is he winning? I can tell you now, no. They were terrible on both sides of the ball.

All in all, Teddy has shown no more than Sam ever has. Probably even less than Sam has. I like both QBs and think we can win with either one if the chips fall in our favor for once. This offseason will be interesting. Loaded QB class but it's no guarantee we land a good one so if Teddy proves to be healthy, I think we need to at least resign one of them and then draft one. I'm not up for going in to the draft blind without Teddy or Sam. A move like that could put us back in the gutter again. We need Teddy or Sam to start 2-3 years and then see if the rookie can take over in the meantime.
It's more Apples to Oranges though. Being that when Teddy was throwing, many times it was because the running game put them in 3rd and 8. He often was taking more risk attempting to get the first down and many times succeeding.

Bradford did not take many chances at all and I believe he also had the record for shortest attempted passes on avg. in history. So with the fewer INT's you also had the fewer first downs and points. The offense dropped from I believe 12th in PPD under Teddy to mid 20's under Sam.

The point is to score points and the offense was much better under Teddy. Then you can say, well Teddy had a running game and Sam didn't. Yeah, it was good or bad for the stats.

The biggest thing for me with Sam is that he is very poor evading the rush, moving in the pocket and making plays when the rush gets there. He is probably the easiest QB to sack in the NFl. You need a great OLine with Bradford to have a good offense because of his limited ability. He looks great with shorts on, but they play tackle on Sundays. That's why eventually teams figure out they can't win with him, hence why he was dumped twice. Has not had a winning season. Has not played in a playoff game. Has the poorest stats of any QB with 60 plus starts since 2010.
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by FireSpieldope » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:06 am

S197 wrote: While I don't dislike Spielman anywhere near the level that you do, I do agree that his refusal to draft a mid-round QB has also been a criticism of mine. It seems like our QB's are 1st rounders or UDFA's with nothing in between. And not just last year, every year from what I can recall. It goes back to Favre, how the heck do you have a 40 year-old QB and no contingency plan? The guy is 40!

Seriously, who was the last QB taken in the mid-rounds? Please tell me it wasn't John David Booty. And no, Joe Webb doesn't count.
My opinion is that unless you are convinced your 2nd stringer is capable of playing extended time you should be looking to upgrade every year. The backup QB is actually one of the most important positions because obviously-

A) QB is the most important position of value on the team effecting the outcome by far the most.

B) Much of the time, the Starter will miss some to extensive time in any given season. Meaning your backup is now your starter.

I think the biggest thing with Spielman, going back to Ponder, is he didn't want any potential QB controversy so the backup was always quite a bit worse then the starter. Which again, overall I feel is detrimental to the overall success. Yeah, you give your 1st round pick more leash, and then that fails because you gave your 1st round pick more leash and he ends up sucking like Ponder. Then you got no one to even go to.
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:38 am

Alaskan wrote: I agree with your analysis on the subject. However, this knee issue with Bradford is kind of spooky. I like them both. I think they can both lead a super bowl run, but neither is worth Stafford, Rodgers etc.... money. They need to be able to sign team friendly deals with there injury historys. They both need more weapons than the elite guys to be as successful. And it will also allow us to keep the defense together. I really would prefer Bridgwater if he can come back somewhere near where he was before the injury. The mobility is such an asset. Sinking some serious draft capital in a top teir QB in this draft would be a really good option IMO.
Agreed. My only thing is, I'm not a big Stafford guy. Talk about someone that cant win. 2 playoff appearances in how many years and no wins but every analysts talks him up like he's the next Tom Brady. I dont buy it. He hasnt proved anything and had one of the most dominant WRs in recent history on his team for a while
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:47 am

808vikingsfan wrote: I'd compare Sam's first 2 years to Bridgewater's first 2 to be fair (Bradford 24TD, 24INT vs Bridgewater 28TD 21INT). Also, the Rams were not terrible. They had a pro bowl RB in Steven Jackson, defense actually ranked #10 in scoring in 2010. I won't argue that Sam will have better stats. He's definitely the better passer. Not sure if he's a better QB though. The jury is still out on Bradford on how he'll play in meaningful games when the game is on the line. Also,I cannot stress enough how important it is to have QB that can extend plays when things break down. 1 or 2 of these plays can make the difference between winning and losing.

Argument may be moot if neither can come back and play at 100%.
Comparing the first two years is fair. The Rams had one year of a decent defense. It was the same year they were in the playoff hunt but lost to Seattle week 17 to get knocked out. Outside of that, yes the Rams were terrible. I watched them a lot, my father is a die hard fan. Their OL was terrible and WRs/TEs were even worse. Steven Jackson was all that team had. You mention how Bradford will play in "meaningful" games but if you look, Teddy wasnt a whole lot better. Denver getting strip sacked to end the game, Arizona getting strip sacked to end the game. I mean it's not like Teddy went out there in big games and won them on his own very often if ever. That's the point I'm trying to make with Teddy. Seems like a lot of guys are on the Teddy train when in the end, he hasnt done much more than Bradford, possibly even less. Teddy had 1 year at 11-5 but had the best RB in football behind him. Sam never had that luxury with us. And again, he had the opportunity but of course Cook has to go down.
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:00 am

FireSpieldope wrote:Being that when Teddy was throwing, many times it was because the running game put them in 3rd and 8. He often was taking more risk attempting to get the first down and many times succeeding.
Dude what?? He had a 1500+ rusher standing behind him in 2015. So when was the running game putting him at 3rd and 8??? Whatever that post is sounds like a poor excuse to be honest. I'm not sure where you even came up with what you said.

If the running game was putting him at 3rd and 8, they've must've been putting Sam at 3rd and 15 because Teddy had a lot more behind him than Sam did other than the 1 game he had with Cook. Sam had the worst running game in the NFL last year. Sam had a 99.3 QBR last year compared to Teddy's best at 88.7. Sam has a 70.3 completion percentage since he's left St. Louis. Which shatters Teddy's 64.9.

When you compare the two:

Sam has better:
-Accuracy
-Arm strength
-Release
-Vision

Teddy has better:
-Mobility
-Intangibles

I mean that probably sums it all up. I dont think a healthy Sam is THAT much better than a healthy Teddy but I still think Bradford is the better overall QB.
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by Norv Zimmer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:27 am

IMO Sam is done. I would be surprised if he doesn't go on IR soon.

I think it is the Keenum show for the rest of the year, there is a slim chance Teddy plays this year.
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by PurpleMustReign » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:31 am

I'd say Sam has better pocket presence as well,although that may go hand-in-hand with less mobility.

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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by Alaskan » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:06 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Comparing the first two years is fair. The Rams had one year of a decent defense. It was the same year they were in the playoff hunt but lost to Seattle week 17 to get knocked out. Outside of that, yes the Rams were terrible. I watched them a lot, my father is a die hard fan. Their OL was terrible and WRs/TEs were even worse. Steven Jackson was all that team had. You mention how Bradford will play in "meaningful" games but if you look, Teddy wasnt a whole lot better. Denver getting strip sacked to end the game, Arizona getting strip sacked to end the game. I mean it's not like Teddy went out there in big games and won them on his own very often if ever. That's the point I'm trying to make with Teddy. Seems like a lot of guys are on the Teddy train when in the end, he hasnt done much more than Bradford, possibly even less. Teddy had 1 year at 11-5 but had the best RB in football behind him. Sam never had that luxury with us. And again, he had the opportunity but of course Cook has to go down.
Agreed, This argument may me moot if neither can come back at 100%.

If they are able to come back at or near where the use to be before injury its an interesting argument. I've seen the stats comparing the two, I've seen the both play on TV and in person and for me, Teddy is the guy I would choose. Especially in this system. The west coast system with this outside zone running scheme, Teddy at or near pre injury form would add ANOTHER dimension to this offense that would make this offense even more difficult to prepare for and defend. This system fits Teddy's skill set very well, much better than Norv's power run blocking, Air Coryell system (similar to what Cardinals run now). Norv's system didn't take full advantage of Teddy's skill set and for the most part, he played behind a historically horrible O line. Shurmer's system will, and it will give him more freedom at the line of scrimmage as well. The system fit is a much bigger thing than people care to acknowledge or understand. Teddy's ceiling in this system is much greater than Sam's IMO
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by S197 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 pm

dead_poet wrote: Does that really matter in the larger scheme of things? How often do QBs "hit" in the mid-rounds? I'm guessing less likely than other position groups. What's wrong with going the route of a vet backup like Keenum for the #2 spot and trying to develop a later-round guy? I suppose your "hit rate" even for a backup is lower. Still, I guess I'm in the camp of drafting a QB in R1-2 until you get your guy and spend rest of the draft capital elsewhere at a position that may have a higher hit rate and greater chance at playing time.

Again, that's just my strategy. I'm not sure one way is really that much better than another. It's all pretty much a crapshoot after the first couple of rounds. YMMV.
To me it matters. The Redskins are a good example, they literally sold the farm for RG3 but still drafted Kirk Cousins, which turned out to be a very wise move. I think the hit rate in general with QBs is low but you can still find your Russell Wilson's and Dak Prescott's of the world in mid rounds.

I don't have an issue with grabbing a 1st or 2nd rounder as your main guy, my issue is your development guy doesn't have to be a Heinicke or Sloter either. Taking a vet as a backup is pretty standard so that's fine with me but typically you know these types of guys are good for maybe a couple of games, it's highly unlikely they turn out to be your long term #1. You more or less know their ceiling.

You don't have to be all that prescient to know that Favre was at the end of his career. But we didn't draft anyone until he retired. Same with Ponder, Teddy was only drafted because it was abundantly clear Ponder wasn't the guy. And those voids result in filler like McNabb and Josh Freeman. Spielman is known for collecting draft picks, a strategy I'm not opposed to, but when you have 9 or 10 picks a year, can't we use one on a QB once in a while?

It just seems odd to me that the "build through the draft" strategy seems to apply to every position other than QB.
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Re: Bradfords knee??

Post by S197 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:07 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:If I had a choice I pick a healthy Sam over a healthy Teddy any day of the week.
I would too.

Unfortunately what we're likely to have for the rest of the year is a moderately healthy Sam or Teddy, at best. In that case, the scales start to tip towards the guy who can make plays with his feet. When Elflein got driven into the backfield on one of the Bear's sacks, Sam more or less just crumpled untouched. The DT was right there but Elflein was still between the two and he really made no effort to escape.

Later in the game Keenum picked up a crucial 1st down on 3rd and long with his feet. There's no way Bradford can make that run in his current condition. Of course the wildcard is will Teddy be mobile like he was pre-injury? That remains to be seen.
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