Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scrutiny

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S197
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by S197 »

Another "quality" piece by the Tribune. Reusse puts an equal amount of weight on turning around a team in the dumpster to winning the NFC North as not playing a QB in preseason and stuffed animals.

Zimmer has had two years of progression and one year of regression. And the year of regression was plagued by unprecedented injuries. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. Growing pains are to be expected of a first time head coach.

I agree that Zimmer needs to perform this year, another 8-8 season is not acceptable. But this article lacks substance and objectivity. It's a piece from an author that clearly has nothing real to report on so instead takes piecemeal non-events and strings them together like he's some sort of investigative journalist arriving at some deep revelation.

tl;dr -- More garbage from the Tribune
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

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S197 wrote:Another "quality" piece by the Tribune. Reusse puts an equal amount of weight on turning around a team in the dumpster to winning the NFC North as not playing a QB in preseason and stuffed animals.

Zimmer has had two years of progression and one year of regression. And the year of regression was plagued by unprecedented injuries. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. Growing pains are to be expected of a first time head coach.

I agree that Zimmer needs to perform this year, another 8-8 season is not acceptable. But this article lacks substance and objectivity. It's a piece from an author that clearly has nothing real to report on so instead takes piecemeal non-events and strings them together like he's some sort of investigative journalist arriving at some deep revelation.

tl;dr -- More garbage from the Tribune
He must have went to the Peter King school of windbaggery.
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Mothman »

S197 wrote:Another "quality" piece by the Tribune. Reusse puts an equal amount of weight on turning around a team in the dumpster to winning the NFC North as not playing a QB in preseason and stuffed animals.

Zimmer has had two years of progression and one year of regression. And the year of regression was plagued by unprecedented injuries. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. Growing pains are to be expected of a first time head coach.

I agree that Zimmer needs to perform this year, another 8-8 season is not acceptable. But this article lacks substance and objectivity. It's a piece from an author that clearly has nothing real to report on so instead takes piecemeal non-events and strings them together like he's some sort of investigative journalist arriving at some deep revelation.

tl;dr -- More garbage from the Tribune

I understand disagreeing or disliking the column but he's not a reporter or an investigative journalist and if he was being objective he wouldn't be doing his job. A columnist like Reusse is supposed to have an opinion. His job is literally to write opinion pieces, to express a point of view!
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by S197 »

Mothman wrote:
I understand disagreeing or disliking the column but he's not a reporter or an investigative journalist and if he was being objective he wouldn't be doing his job. A columnist like Reusse is supposed to have an opinion. His job is literally to write opinion pieces, to express a point of view!
Even as a columnist he should be able to support his opinion. His opinion is summarized as:
Mike Zimmer came to Minnesota in 2014 perceived as a thick-skinned straight shooter. But he's shown to be the opposite.
I see next to no evidence that Zimmer is now perceived as a thin-skinned liar, which is more or less what he's saying. He seems to be the epitome of a straight shooter, he's been very frank about players he's happy and unhappy with as well as mistakes he's made. He may hold certain things close to the vest but I've never seen him to be one who shies away from raising his hand and saying when he's made a mistake. Or when a player is coasting (i.e. Barr).

I get it's the offseason and columnists need to put out something, I just think it was a shoddy effort.
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Mothman »

S197 wrote:Even as a columnist he should be able to support his opinion.
To be fair, he did provide examples in support of his opinion.
His opinion is summarized as:
I see next to no evidence that Zimmer is now perceived as a thin-skinned liar, which is more or less what he's saying.
Liar is a pretty strong word and Reusse didn't use it but I don't think there's any shortage of evidence that Zimmer is thin-skinned. He's bristled his way through numerous press conferences and he seems to get angry with his players pretty easily too. When I think "thick-skinned", I think of a guy like Bud Grant not a volatile coach like Zimmer, who reminds me more of Mike Ditka.
He seems to be the epitome of a straight shooter, he's been very frank about players he's happy and unhappy with as well as mistakes he's made. He may hold certain things close to the vest but I've never seen him to be one who shies away from raising his hand and saying when he's made a mistake. Or when a player is coasting (i.e. Barr).
I suppose it depends on what you think constitutes a straight shooter. He's frank when he's unhappy with players but I find it hard to trust much of what he says when it comes to player injuries and he has a tendency to get petulant and dodge questions with responses like "I felt like it" or "because I wanted to" rather than giving informative, straight answers. At times, he's very forthright but he can also be very cagey or just shut down.

I think the main point of the column was that the public (in general) formed an immediate opinion that Zimmer "was going to be a well-seasoned wonder as Vikings coach, and it seems to have maintained the pro-Zim stance even after the disastrous turn taken by his team last season." That's the thrust of it and it seems accurate to me. It certainly matches what I've seen over the past 3 years. I also don't think it was unfair at all for Reusse to conclude with "Zimmer’s leadership as a coach is one of the uncertainties for the 2017 Vikings".

Obviously, not everybody shares that opinion but that's good because it's stimulated some discussion!
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by S197 »

He's equally if not more likely to say when he made a bad call or decision. There's been numerous times where a big play was given up and he's basically come out and said he made a bad call. As for injuries, by that metric, the Patriots are the King of Crooked. Those types of disclosures are more strategic in nature, I don't really think it behooves anyone to let that information out if it's not necessary.

Regardless of what adjective you use, Reusse is implying that Zimmer was perceived to be one way and turned out to be the complete opposite. I just don't see it. I think he's been fairly consistent in his approach over the last 3 years and his personality is what most people thought it would be.
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

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S197 wrote:He's equally if not more likely to say when he made a bad call or decision. There's been numerous times where a big play was given up and he's basically come out and said he made a bad call


Sure, but I don't think anybody is arguing that he's simplistically one-dimensional.
As for injuries, by that metric, the Patriots are the King of Crooked. Those types of disclosures are more strategic in nature, I don't really think it behooves anyone to let that information out if it's not necessary.

Regardless of what adjective you use, Reusse is implying that Zimmer was perceived to be one way and turned out to be the complete opposite. I just don't see it. I think he's been fairly consistent in his approach over the last 3 years and his personality is what most people thought it would be.
If that's how you see it, that's fine. I understand. It's a subjective view, just like Reusse's, just like mine. Your view of Zimmer seems largely unchanged and you're hardly alone in that respect. It's why I found the column interesting because I actually do think Zimmer has been somewhat different than advertised and yet opinions obviously vary significantly on that topic.
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Nunin »

I just hope dude makes it through the season in one piece. He had EIGHT eye surgeries...holy crap!
Didn't his wife die too?
Not in any way making excuses for him, just acknowledging that things have been less than smooth for him on top of having a 'fairly stressful', more than full time job.
Best wishes to Mike Zimmer this season~
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Demi »

I think the main point of the column was that the public (in general) formed an immediate opinion that Zimmer "was going to be a well-seasoned wonder as Vikings coach, and it seems to have maintained the pro-Zim stance even after the disastrous turn taken by his team last season." That's the thrust of it and it seems accurate to me.
I wish he had a competent front office, or at least general manager. Heck a solid offensive coordinator would have been nice. And now he's saddled with a proven failure like Shurmur.

The defense has improved all three years he's been here. And I think he's a big reason for it. The fact the team has struggled? How much of the disastrous turn can you put on him? A significant number of injuries, and losing the starting QB. Offensive coordinator resigns. And the team is still .500 and a top 5 or 10 defense. Should fans have went anti-Zim after last season? He's the last person I'd blame for the "disastrous turn".

Too bad he's surrounded with the same incompetent front office and offensive staff that contributed largely to that disastrous turn.
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Mothman »

Nunin wrote:I just hope dude makes it through the season in one piece. He had EIGHT eye surgeries...holy crap!
Didn't his wife die too?
Yes, she passed away, unexpectedly, in 2009, which must have been devastating.
Not in any way making excuses for him, just acknowledging that things have been less than smooth for him on top of having a 'fairly stressful', more than full time job.
Best wishes to Mike Zimmer this season~
I wish him well too.
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Nunin »

Oh, I thought his wife's passing was more recent, maybe I was thinking of Norv leaving? ;)
-
I agree with some of Demi's premise as per front office.
I don't think Shurmur is a lost cause though. I remember Demi was really sour on Musgrave. He's proving to be a decent OC. I think of people were way down on Bevell too.
Shurmur has a chance to do very well here IMO.
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

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Demi wrote:I wish he had a competent front office, or at least general manager. Heck a solid offensive coordinator would have been nice. And now he's saddled with a proven failure like Shurmur.
Saddled? Shurmur was his choice.
The defense has improved all three years he's been here. And I think he's a big reason for it. The fact the team has struggled? How much of the disastrous turn can you put on him?
Plenty.
Too bad he's surrounded with the same incompetent front office and offensive staff that contributed largely to that disastrous turn.
He assembled that offensive staff. He's the head coach. Why do so many fans insist on treating him more like the defensive coordinator? The defense has been better in the last 3 years and he's one of the reasons for it. The offense has been among the league's worst over that same period and he's a big reason for that too but for some reason, as long as the defense is good, Zimmer gets a pass on the offense from many fans, even though he's responsible for fielding a good team, not just a good defense.
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

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Nunin wrote:Oh, I thought his wife's passing was more recent, maybe I was thinking of Norv leaving? ;)


:lol: Maybe.
I agree with some of Demi's premise as per front office.
I do too. I'm obviously not a Spielman fan.

We'll see how Shurmur works out. i'm not excited about him as OC but that doesn't mean anything. Maybe he'll do well!
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Demi »

Saddled? Shurmur was his choice.
So Zimmer is hiring offensive position coaches? With Spielman having final say overall, and Norv as the offensive coordinator? Zimmer chose to hire Shurmur as tight ends coach early last season? With an eye towards moving him to the offensive coordinator? I think you (and maybe Reusse) are giving Zimmer too much credit. They never even coached together before last year, why would Zimmer choose a guy he's never worked with? I could see Norv. But Shurmur?
Mothman wrote: Plenty.
How? He's been a defensive coach his entire career. He was hired based on his defensive coordinator credentials. And the disastrous turn was losing half the offense, including the starting quarterback. How many teams in this league go 8-8 after losing their starting quarterback? Even the Patriots struggle to go .500 if they lose Brady for the season. And he put a defense on the field that was 6th in points allowed and 3rd in yards allowed. And you'll put "plenty" of the issues with this season on him? :confused:
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Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

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Demi wrote:So Zimmer is hiring offensive position coaches?
Yes. He's been choosing his own staff from the start. Spielman's not imposing coaches on him.
How? He's been a defensive coach his entire career. He was hired based on his defensive coordinator credentials. And the disastrous turn was losing half the offense, including the starting quarterback.
The offense has been in the bottom 5 or 6 in the league for 3 years, not one and it's one of the reasons Zimmers leadership is indeed "deserving of scrutiny".

Mike Zimmer is the head coach so the entire team is his responsibility: who coaches the offense, making sure they have a good game plan every week, who starts and who sits, everything. Regardless of the credentials that got him hired, he's not just in charge of the defense, he's in charge of the team. He has input into and authority over the offense and he's in position to determine the extent of his own involvement. He can choose how to exercise his authority, even though he obviously has to delegate responsibility to others on both sides of the ball. When something isn't working, it's his responsibility to address the problem and get it working. He stopped being responsible for the defense alone when he stopped being a defensive coordinator so yes, Zimmer has had plenty to do with the team's 3 years of struggle on offense. He's played a key role in it through his decisions about all of the above.

Vikings fans have been compartmentalizing Zimmer's role to shield him from criticism for 3 years now but it's been his team all along. He was Turner's boss, not the other way around. It's his offense, regardless of who's coaching it and it's been a pretty sorry-looking unit for his entire tenure. Spielman's had a lot to do with that but Zimmer appears to have quite a bit of influence and input with him too. By all accounts, they've worked together closely to assemble the last 3 year's of Vikings teams, good and bad (and there has definitely been some good). As for Bridgewater's injury, it actually led to the team having it's most productive passing game under Zimmer. That's not too detrimental ...
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