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 Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scrutiny 
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Post Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scrutiny
This should go over well.

http://www.startribune.com/mike-zimmer- ... 423258333/

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This is the age when the sporting public can see most everything for itself and absorb information from endless sources. An opinion is formed rapidly, and then comes the mystery:

A) Some of those opinions are tightly held even when there’s evidence to the contrary; and B) some will change in a blink of the calendar.

Mike Zimmer remains the beneficiary of Opinion A. Forty months ago, the sporting public embraced the notion that Zimmer was going to be a well-seasoned wonder as Vikings coach, and it seems to have maintained the pro-Zim stance even after the disastrous turn taken by his team last season.


I think Reusse makes some good points without piling on too much. He concludes by saying:

Quote:
A year ago as the Vikings put rookies through drills at Winter Park, Zimmer was the heroic coach who had raised the team to contending status in the NFC. Now, Zimmer’s leadership as a coach is one of the uncertainties for the 2017 Vikings.


That's fair, at least in my opinion.


Sun May 21, 2017 9:52 am
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Nothing to argue. I'm as big a supporter/believer in Zimmer as any, but the time has come to prove true worth. Nothing more, nothing less.


Sun May 21, 2017 10:16 pm
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
PacificNorseWest wrote:
Nothing to argue. I'm as big a supporter/believer in Zimmer as any, but the time has come to prove true worth. Nothing more, nothing less.


That's how I see it too.


Mon May 22, 2017 6:21 am
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
I think that Spielman is on the hot seat more than Zimmer. Imo.

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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
There's nothing groundbreaking here. Every head coach is deserving of scrutiny. If Bill Belichick suddenly goes 8-8, he'll be scrutinized.

And guess what? Even if Mike Zimmer goes 2-14 and gets fired, he'll still be highly respected around the league because he's a good coach and a good man. His ability to succeed as a HEAD coach is the question that remains to be answered. That's not surprising for a guy with 3 years of experience. Not many guys like Steve Kerr come along who win a championship their first year after never coaching at any level.

This article qualifies as "dog bites man." It's the obvious take. Columnists who show me "man bites dog," are the ones who impress me.

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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Not much new here other than the presentation. I'm not sure I'm on board Reusse's summary of events. He draws quick conclusions about key events from last season to support his thesis, but I'm not sure those premises entirely stand up to his conclusion, there is a lot we still do not know. (The Bye Week "Fat Cat" episode and the Norv Turner affair as examples.)

The motivation issues have been apparent since the start of 2015. They have had several games in the past two seasons where they played like garbage and either lost to poor opponent (2015: SF, PHI, CHI, IND in 2016) or got blown out in a game where they should have been more competitive (GB/SEA at Home 2015, GB on road 2016).

The offensive issues have also been apparent since 2014.

The causes of these problems have never been clearly laid at Zimmer's feet. This is not to say I'm absolving him of fault, far from it, just that we do not know if it is JUST HIM, or if there were other factors at play. My sense is that it was/is a mixture of issues, but as the the HC it is his job to fix it. (This is where I agree to some extent with Reusse.) Reusse's column abandon's the details with a "buck stops here" argument to lay it all on Zimmer.

I'm still where I was in January. One of the three main issues I see for the team to fix in 2017 if it wishes to contend is to eliminate losses due to flat / poor play / motivation. IMO, this article throws gasoline on that particular fire, but it doesn't add anything new to it.

FWIW, The other issues are RED ZONE effectiveness / Scoring, and the OL. IMO, they have made strides in FA towards the third issue. How the other two sort out will not be known until October.

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Mon May 22, 2017 9:20 am
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
I didn't think Reusse was going for anything innovative or revelatory in the column, just making a point worth making and best summarized by the first paragraph I quoted in the OP. He states that point a little too broadly but I think it's valid.


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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
I agree in that sense. I was trying to be more specific in my own right to spur the conversation a bit. It is high off-season right now and ripping on the vacuity of a local columnist only gets us so far.

FWIW, I think a fun speculative topic would be taking a realistic offense depth chart and then doing a guess on expected production. If I get some time I might throw this together for fun. To me the real value is the critical assumptions that you have to make and then assessing their probability. Gives an idea of where the risks are for the team.

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Mon May 22, 2017 10:02 am
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
mansquatch wrote:
I agree in that sense. I was trying to be more specific in my own right to spur the conversation a bit. It is high off-season right now and ripping on the vacuity of a local columnist only gets us so far.


:lol: True. that's one of the reasons I posted the column in the first place. I wanted to spark conversation too.

Quote:
FWIW, I think a fun speculative topic would be taking a realistic offense depth chart and then doing a guess on expected production. If I get some time I might throw this together for fun. To me the real value is the critical assumptions that you have to make and then assessing their probability. Gives an idea of where the risks are for the team.


That's a good idea!


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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Mothman wrote:
I didn't think Reusse was going for anything innovative or revelatory in the column, just making a point worth making and best summarized by the first paragraph I quoted in the OP. He states that point a little too broadly but I think it's valid.

You're totally correct, Jim. It's valid.

I'm just a bit critical of columnists in general. In their defense, it's not easy coming up with pieces like this 3-4 times per week. But at the same time, I don't go for columnists who sort of state the obvious. And we're seeing a lot of that in this day and age of Now-News.

Many years ago when I was in journalism school, there was a columnist named Ken Burger. These days, he's a commentator for Fox Sports, but in those days he was a sports columnist for the Charleston (SC) Post Courier. He wrote a column about women's basketball once that absolutely floored me. Here's the first graf.

I love women. I love basketball. I hate women's basketball.

Now THAT gets your attention. You either want to throw Ken Burger out a 10th-floor window, or you want to throw him a party, but you're GOING to have an opinion on it. There is no in-between. And it provides water-cooler talk for DAYS. No matter what you believed, it was a GREAT column.

I'm not saying that Reusse's points aren't valid. They're just obvious. It's an easy column to write, and ultimately forgettable for the reader.

As for Zimmer ... yeah, he still has something to prove. He's gone 7-9, 11-5 and 8-8. He's 0-1 in the playoffs. Even the most ardent Zimmer lover (and I'm pretty fond of the guy) would admit that. If the Vikings don't improve, he's squarely on the hot seat, as he should be.

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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
I know this is old hat, but I still struggle with how much of the 8-8 was on him and how much was due to 14 different starters on the OL resulting from Injury. Not looking to rehash that debate, just how I feel on the matter.

I do get a sense that Zimmer still needs to get a handle on certain deficiencies in himself as an HC. That is actually the crux of my previous point. I do feel that a lot of the flat performances fall on him. The more exciting question is what he'll do about it. That why I took that "more blue collar practices" comment as at least somewhat positive in the sense that he acknowledged that he had issues he needed to address. As always, how he does that the results of that action are what matters most. Sadly at this point in the NFL "season" we are not likely to get any nuggets for at least 6 weeks.

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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mothman wrote:
I didn't think Reusse was going for anything innovative or revelatory in the column, just making a point worth making and best summarized by the first paragraph I quoted in the OP. He states that point a little too broadly but I think it's valid.

You're totally correct, Jim. It's valid.

I'm just a bit critical of columnists in general. In their defense, it's not easy coming up with pieces like this 3-4 times per week. But at the same time, I don't go for columnists who sort of state the obvious. And we're seeing a lot of that in this day and age of Now-News.

Many years ago when I was in journalism school, there was a columnist named Ken Burger. These days, he's a commentator for Fox Sports, but in those days he was a sports columnist for the Charleston (SC) Post Courier. He wrote a column about women's basketball once that absolutely floored me. Here's the first graf.

I love women. I love basketball. I hate women's basketball.

Now THAT gets your attention. You either want to throw Ken Burger out a 10th-floor window, or you want to throw him a party, but you're GOING to have an opinion on it. There is no in-between. And it provides water-cooler talk for DAYS. No matter what you believed, it was a GREAT column.

I'm not saying that Reusse's points aren't valid. They're just obvious. It's an easy column to write, and ultimately forgettable for the reader.

As for Zimmer ... yeah, he still has something to prove. He's gone 7-9, 11-5 and 8-8. He's 0-1 in the playoffs. Even the most ardent Zimmer lover (and I'm pretty fond of the guy) would admit that. If the Vikings don't improve, he's squarely on the hot seat, as he should be.


I see your point and knowing a bit about your background, I also understand why you'd have a strong opinion about columnists. :)


Mon May 22, 2017 12:29 pm
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
mansquatch wrote:
I know this is old hat, but I still struggle with how much of the 8-8 was on him and how much was due to 14 different starters on the OL resulting from Injury. Not looking to rehash that debate, just how I feel on the matter.

I do get a sense that Zimmer still needs to get a handle on certain deficiencies in himself as an HC. That is actually the crux of my previous point. I do feel that a lot of the flat performances fall on him. The more exciting question is what he'll do about it. That why I took that "more blue collar practices" comment as at least somewhat positive in the sense that he acknowledged that he had issues he needed to address.


It IS positive in that sense. What concerns me about it (a little–I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill) is the way it might fit in with some of the motivational techniques he's used. The stuffed animal thing was just a bad idea and I doubt we'll see something like that repeated but Zimmer seems to love playing the "nobody respects us/it's us against the world" card and I think that's a heavy-handed motivational approach that gets old very fast in the pros. I saw Lovie Smith beat it to death in Chicago and it became increasingly clear his players weren't buying into it. More focused practices could yield better results, I just hope Zimmer is looking deeper than simple motivational techniques and the idea that his team needs to be a tougher, more "blue collar" squad. I believe there are strategic shortcomings that need to be addressed and hopefully, his self-assessment is going deep into that stuff too, not just stopping at the surface. It probably is... I certainly don't expect the guy to bare his soul to the press about that sort of thing.

Quote:
As always, how he does that the results of that action are what matters most. Sadly at this point in the NFL "season" we are not likely to get any nuggets for at least 6 weeks.


it's the "dead zone".


Mon May 22, 2017 12:42 pm
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Mothman wrote:
mansquatch wrote:
I know this is old hat, but I still struggle with how much of the 8-8 was on him and how much was due to 14 different starters on the OL resulting from Injury. Not looking to rehash that debate, just how I feel on the matter.

I do get a sense that Zimmer still needs to get a handle on certain deficiencies in himself as an HC. That is actually the crux of my previous point. I do feel that a lot of the flat performances fall on him. The more exciting question is what he'll do about it. That why I took that "more blue collar practices" comment as at least somewhat positive in the sense that he acknowledged that he had issues he needed to address.


It IS positive in that sense. What concerns me about it (a little–I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill) is the way it might fit in with some of the motivational techniques he's used. The stuffed animal thing was just a bad idea and I doubt we'll see something like that repeated but Zimmer seems to love playing the "nobody respects us/it's us against the world" card and I think that's a heavy-handed motivational approach that gets old very fast in the pros. I saw Lovie Smith beat it to death in Chicago and it became increasingly clear his players weren't buying into it. More focused practices could yield better results, I just hope Zimmer is looking deeper than simple motivational techniques and the idea that his team needs to be a tougher, more "blue collar" squad. I believe there are strategic shortcomings that need to be addressed and hopefully, his self-assessment is going deep into that stuff too, not just stopping at the surface. It probably is... I certainly don't expect the guy to bare his soul to the press about that sort of thing.

Quote:
As always, how he does that the results of that action are what matters most. Sadly at this point in the NFL "season" we are not likely to get any nuggets for at least 6 weeks.


it's the "dead zone".


AKA Honey Do season

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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
The motivation thing is a tough nut to crack. Bill Cower was using that exact same schtick as his team prepared to play in and eventually win Cower's SB. So that line can work. To me it is more the fact that the tactic was unsuccessful in it's application by Zimmer than the tactic itself.

There is world of depth on this one though How well does Zimmer know/understand his players? How well does he deliver the message? Is he understanding the particular moment? So on and so fourth.

Another angle is would it have mattered? The defense played hard in that PHI game and put the team in a position to win, but the Offense couldn't deliver. That game was a tough loss, but not nearly as embarrassing as the one that followed against Chicago. That game is the one that really gives me fits from last season. What happened to cause a 5-1 team to complete come off the rails and get blown out against a truly pathetic Bears club? We'll never know. The next question is why couldn't it get back on track against a mediocre at best DET team?

I look back on it though and I think the two major lows were the loss against Chicago, and then the carry over hangover that caused them to choke it against DET. Zimmer needs to figure out what he could have done to right the ship in those moments. The season likely would have turned out different if he had found it in himself to coach the team out of that spot. They get two wins out of the 2x DET and DAL games. You have to wonder if the IND mess happens if they get those wins since their morale would have been MUCH better than it was. (That game to me was basically the spirit of the club being broken before the opening kickoff, but I could be wrong.)

All speculation on my part, but if one wants to get specific, then I think the place to look is weeks 7-9 and the way it was handled. That to me was the opportunity for the head coach to grab his team by the horns and show genuine leadership.

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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Another "quality" piece by the Tribune. Reusse puts an equal amount of weight on turning around a team in the dumpster to winning the NFC North as not playing a QB in preseason and stuffed animals.

Zimmer has had two years of progression and one year of regression. And the year of regression was plagued by unprecedented injuries. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. Growing pains are to be expected of a first time head coach.

I agree that Zimmer needs to perform this year, another 8-8 season is not acceptable. But this article lacks substance and objectivity. It's a piece from an author that clearly has nothing real to report on so instead takes piecemeal non-events and strings them together like he's some sort of investigative journalist arriving at some deep revelation.

tl;dr -- More garbage from the Tribune


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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
S197 wrote:
Another "quality" piece by the Tribune. Reusse puts an equal amount of weight on turning around a team in the dumpster to winning the NFC North as not playing a QB in preseason and stuffed animals.

Zimmer has had two years of progression and one year of regression. And the year of regression was plagued by unprecedented injuries. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. Growing pains are to be expected of a first time head coach.

I agree that Zimmer needs to perform this year, another 8-8 season is not acceptable. But this article lacks substance and objectivity. It's a piece from an author that clearly has nothing real to report on so instead takes piecemeal non-events and strings them together like he's some sort of investigative journalist arriving at some deep revelation.

tl;dr -- More garbage from the Tribune

He must have went to the Peter King school of windbaggery.

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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
S197 wrote:
Another "quality" piece by the Tribune. Reusse puts an equal amount of weight on turning around a team in the dumpster to winning the NFC North as not playing a QB in preseason and stuffed animals.

Zimmer has had two years of progression and one year of regression. And the year of regression was plagued by unprecedented injuries. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. Growing pains are to be expected of a first time head coach.

I agree that Zimmer needs to perform this year, another 8-8 season is not acceptable. But this article lacks substance and objectivity. It's a piece from an author that clearly has nothing real to report on so instead takes piecemeal non-events and strings them together like he's some sort of investigative journalist arriving at some deep revelation.

tl;dr -- More garbage from the Tribune



I understand disagreeing or disliking the column but he's not a reporter or an investigative journalist and if he was being objective he wouldn't be doing his job. A columnist like Reusse is supposed to have an opinion. His job is literally to write opinion pieces, to express a point of view!


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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Quote:
Mothman wrote:
S197 wrote:
Another "quality" piece by the Tribune. Reusse puts an equal amount of weight on turning around a team in the dumpster to winning the NFC North as not playing a QB in preseason and stuffed animals.

Zimmer has had two years of progression and one year of regression. And the year of regression was plagued by unprecedented injuries. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. Growing pains are to be expected of a first time head coach.

I agree that Zimmer needs to perform this year, another 8-8 season is not acceptable. But this article lacks substance and objectivity. It's a piece from an author that clearly has nothing real to report on so instead takes piecemeal non-events and strings them together like he's some sort of investigative journalist arriving at some deep revelation.

tl;dr -- More garbage from the Tribune



I understand disagreeing or disliking the column but he's not a reporter or an investigative journalist and if he was being objective he wouldn't be doing his job. A columnist like Reusse is supposed to have an opinion. His job is literally to write opinion pieces, to express a point of view!


Even as a columnist he should be able to support his opinion. His opinion is summarized as:

Quote:
Mike Zimmer came to Minnesota in 2014 perceived as a thick-skinned straight shooter. But he's shown to be the opposite.


I see next to no evidence that Zimmer is now perceived as a thin-skinned liar, which is more or less what he's saying. He seems to be the epitome of a straight shooter, he's been very frank about players he's happy and unhappy with as well as mistakes he's made. He may hold certain things close to the vest but I've never seen him to be one who shies away from raising his hand and saying when he's made a mistake. Or when a player is coasting (i.e. Barr).

I get it's the offseason and columnists need to put out something, I just think it was a shoddy effort.


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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
S197 wrote:
Even as a columnist he should be able to support his opinion.


To be fair, he did provide examples in support of his opinion.

Quote:
His opinion is summarized as:

Quote:
Mike Zimmer came to Minnesota in 2014 perceived as a thick-skinned straight shooter. But he's shown to be the opposite.


I see next to no evidence that Zimmer is now perceived as a thin-skinned liar, which is more or less what he's saying.


Liar is a pretty strong word and Reusse didn't use it but I don't think there's any shortage of evidence that Zimmer is thin-skinned. He's bristled his way through numerous press conferences and he seems to get angry with his players pretty easily too. When I think "thick-skinned", I think of a guy like Bud Grant not a volatile coach like Zimmer, who reminds me more of Mike Ditka.

Quote:
He seems to be the epitome of a straight shooter, he's been very frank about players he's happy and unhappy with as well as mistakes he's made. He may hold certain things close to the vest but I've never seen him to be one who shies away from raising his hand and saying when he's made a mistake. Or when a player is coasting (i.e. Barr).


I suppose it depends on what you think constitutes a straight shooter. He's frank when he's unhappy with players but I find it hard to trust much of what he says when it comes to player injuries and he has a tendency to get petulant and dodge questions with responses like "I felt like it" or "because I wanted to" rather than giving informative, straight answers. At times, he's very forthright but he can also be very cagey or just shut down.

I think the main point of the column was that the public (in general) formed an immediate opinion that Zimmer "was going to be a well-seasoned wonder as Vikings coach, and it seems to have maintained the pro-Zim stance even after the disastrous turn taken by his team last season." That's the thrust of it and it seems accurate to me. It certainly matches what I've seen over the past 3 years. I also don't think it was unfair at all for Reusse to conclude with "Zimmer’s leadership as a coach is one of the uncertainties for the 2017 Vikings".

Obviously, not everybody shares that opinion but that's good because it's stimulated some discussion!


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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
He's equally if not more likely to say when he made a bad call or decision. There's been numerous times where a big play was given up and he's basically come out and said he made a bad call. As for injuries, by that metric, the Patriots are the King of Crooked. Those types of disclosures are more strategic in nature, I don't really think it behooves anyone to let that information out if it's not necessary.

Regardless of what adjective you use, Reusse is implying that Zimmer was perceived to be one way and turned out to be the complete opposite. I just don't see it. I think he's been fairly consistent in his approach over the last 3 years and his personality is what most people thought it would be.


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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
S197 wrote:
He's equally if not more likely to say when he made a bad call or decision. There's been numerous times where a big play was given up and he's basically come out and said he made a bad call


Sure, but I don't think anybody is arguing that he's simplistically one-dimensional.

Quote:
As for injuries, by that metric, the Patriots are the King of Crooked. Those types of disclosures are more strategic in nature, I don't really think it behooves anyone to let that information out if it's not necessary.

Regardless of what adjective you use, Reusse is implying that Zimmer was perceived to be one way and turned out to be the complete opposite. I just don't see it. I think he's been fairly consistent in his approach over the last 3 years and his personality is what most people thought it would be.


If that's how you see it, that's fine. I understand. It's a subjective view, just like Reusse's, just like mine. Your view of Zimmer seems largely unchanged and you're hardly alone in that respect. It's why I found the column interesting because I actually do think Zimmer has been somewhat different than advertised and yet opinions obviously vary significantly on that topic.


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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
I just hope dude makes it through the season in one piece. He had EIGHT eye surgeries...holy crap!
Didn't his wife die too?
Not in any way making excuses for him, just acknowledging that things have been less than smooth for him on top of having a 'fairly stressful', more than full time job.
Best wishes to Mike Zimmer this season~


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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Quote:
I think the main point of the column was that the public (in general) formed an immediate opinion that Zimmer "was going to be a well-seasoned wonder as Vikings coach, and it seems to have maintained the pro-Zim stance even after the disastrous turn taken by his team last season." That's the thrust of it and it seems accurate to me.


I wish he had a competent front office, or at least general manager. Heck a solid offensive coordinator would have been nice. And now he's saddled with a proven failure like Shurmur.

The defense has improved all three years he's been here. And I think he's a big reason for it. The fact the team has struggled? How much of the disastrous turn can you put on him? A significant number of injuries, and losing the starting QB. Offensive coordinator resigns. And the team is still .500 and a top 5 or 10 defense. Should fans have went anti-Zim after last season? He's the last person I'd blame for the "disastrous turn".

Too bad he's surrounded with the same incompetent front office and offensive staff that contributed largely to that disastrous turn.


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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Nunin wrote:
I just hope dude makes it through the season in one piece. He had EIGHT eye surgeries...holy crap!
Didn't his wife die too?


Yes, she passed away, unexpectedly, in 2009, which must have been devastating.

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Not in any way making excuses for him, just acknowledging that things have been less than smooth for him on top of having a 'fairly stressful', more than full time job.
Best wishes to Mike Zimmer this season~


I wish him well too.


Mon May 22, 2017 8:59 pm
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Oh, I thought his wife's passing was more recent, maybe I was thinking of Norv leaving? ;)
-
I agree with some of Demi's premise as per front office.
I don't think Shurmur is a lost cause though. I remember Demi was really sour on Musgrave. He's proving to be a decent OC. I think of people were way down on Bevell too.
Shurmur has a chance to do very well here IMO.


Mon May 22, 2017 9:08 pm
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Demi wrote:
I wish he had a competent front office, or at least general manager. Heck a solid offensive coordinator would have been nice. And now he's saddled with a proven failure like Shurmur.


Saddled? Shurmur was his choice.

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The defense has improved all three years he's been here. And I think he's a big reason for it. The fact the team has struggled? How much of the disastrous turn can you put on him?


Plenty.

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Too bad he's surrounded with the same incompetent front office and offensive staff that contributed largely to that disastrous turn.


He assembled that offensive staff. He's the head coach. Why do so many fans insist on treating him more like the defensive coordinator? The defense has been better in the last 3 years and he's one of the reasons for it. The offense has been among the league's worst over that same period and he's a big reason for that too but for some reason, as long as the defense is good, Zimmer gets a pass on the offense from many fans, even though he's responsible for fielding a good team, not just a good defense.


Mon May 22, 2017 9:13 pm
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Nunin wrote:
Oh, I thought his wife's passing was more recent, maybe I was thinking of Norv leaving? ;)


:lol: Maybe.

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I agree with some of Demi's premise as per front office.


I do too. I'm obviously not a Spielman fan.

We'll see how Shurmur works out. i'm not excited about him as OC but that doesn't mean anything. Maybe he'll do well!


Mon May 22, 2017 9:15 pm
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
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Saddled? Shurmur was his choice.


So Zimmer is hiring offensive position coaches? With Spielman having final say overall, and Norv as the offensive coordinator? Zimmer chose to hire Shurmur as tight ends coach early last season? With an eye towards moving him to the offensive coordinator? I think you (and maybe Reusse) are giving Zimmer too much credit. They never even coached together before last year, why would Zimmer choose a guy he's never worked with? I could see Norv. But Shurmur?

Mothman wrote:
Quote:
The defense has improved all three years he's been here. And I think he's a big reason for it. The fact the team has struggled? How much of the disastrous turn can you put on him?


Plenty.


How? He's been a defensive coach his entire career. He was hired based on his defensive coordinator credentials. And the disastrous turn was losing half the offense, including the starting quarterback. How many teams in this league go 8-8 after losing their starting quarterback? Even the Patriots struggle to go .500 if they lose Brady for the season. And he put a defense on the field that was 6th in points allowed and 3rd in yards allowed. And you'll put "plenty" of the issues with this season on him? :confused:


Mon May 22, 2017 10:29 pm
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Post Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru
Demi wrote:
So Zimmer is hiring offensive position coaches?


Yes. He's been choosing his own staff from the start. Spielman's not imposing coaches on him.

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How? He's been a defensive coach his entire career. He was hired based on his defensive coordinator credentials. And the disastrous turn was losing half the offense, including the starting quarterback.


The offense has been in the bottom 5 or 6 in the league for 3 years, not one and it's one of the reasons Zimmers leadership is indeed "deserving of scrutiny".

Mike Zimmer is the head coach so the entire team is his responsibility: who coaches the offense, making sure they have a good game plan every week, who starts and who sits, everything. Regardless of the credentials that got him hired, he's not just in charge of the defense, he's in charge of the team. He has input into and authority over the offense and he's in position to determine the extent of his own involvement. He can choose how to exercise his authority, even though he obviously has to delegate responsibility to others on both sides of the ball. When something isn't working, it's his responsibility to address the problem and get it working. He stopped being responsible for the defense alone when he stopped being a defensive coordinator so yes, Zimmer has had plenty to do with the team's 3 years of struggle on offense. He's played a key role in it through his decisions about all of the above.

Vikings fans have been compartmentalizing Zimmer's role to shield him from criticism for 3 years now but it's been his team all along. He was Turner's boss, not the other way around. It's his offense, regardless of who's coaching it and it's been a pretty sorry-looking unit for his entire tenure. Spielman's had a lot to do with that but Zimmer appears to have quite a bit of influence and input with him too. By all accounts, they've worked together closely to assemble the last 3 year's of Vikings teams, good and bad (and there has definitely been some good). As for Bridgewater's injury, it actually led to the team having it's most productive passing game under Zimmer. That's not too detrimental ...


Tue May 23, 2017 6:37 am
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