Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

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mansquatch
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by mansquatch » Tue May 02, 2017 11:52 am

chicagopurple wrote:I disagree.
Tackle is NOT like WR. Many new players get a chance to start especially on teams where the "veteran" is someone who was a total liability in the past.
Some light reading for you to consider:
http://www.theintelligencer.net/sports/ ... y-for-nfl/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/n ... /80918122/

The days of College OL being the safest high draft picks are over. The Vikings are not alone in their plight either, which is why the guys in FA were so expensive this year. This is also why expecting to fix this problem in the draft is not a very viable short term strategy. It is entirely likely that all the mock drafts / draft analyses are over valuing college OL vs. how the NFL GMs are rating them.

Consider that 25% of the first round picks were DBs who will also have a steep learning curve due to the differences in the NFL game both physically and in the rules for PI and Defensive Holding. At the same time, only 2(!) selections were OL and the first one didn't go until pick 20 and the second one was pick 32. In 2015 only 2 of the fist 30 OL taken cracked the starting line up for their respective teams the following season.

It is a mistake to just look at this from the perspective of the Vikings. You have to consider what is going on in the league as well.
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by Mothman » Tue May 02, 2017 12:14 pm

mansquatch wrote:The days of College OL being the safest high draft picks are over. The Vikings are not alone in their plight either, which is why the guys in FA were so expensive this year. This is also why expecting to fix this problem in the draft is not a very viable short term strategy.


It doesn't need to be a short term strategy. The Vikings signed two veterans to play tackle, which actually put them in a good position to draft a tackle this year and develop him for a year or two. Hopefully, they will do that next year.
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by chicagopurple » Tue May 02, 2017 12:31 pm

I am aware of the competition for Ol in the league, many many months ago I stated repeatedly here that we are in a tough spot because Spielman failed to address the Ol for YEARS. Now that he must fix it, and fix it at pretty much EVERY position, we are doing so when OL players are at a a premium. Its kind of a perfect storm of his own creation.......I think he DID do som good this year but we are likely still in need on 1-2 more guys to compete and Clemmings/Sirles are just dead weight, much like Kalil was for so many years.....time to cut bait....
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by Dakotavike » Tue May 02, 2017 1:45 pm

Has Ryan Clady signed anywhere yet? I know he's not what he once was but he could provide some depth/competiion. Just a thought.
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by mansquatch » Tue May 02, 2017 1:49 pm

Mothman wrote: It doesn't need to be a short term strategy. The Vikings signed two veterans to play tackle, which actually put them in a good position to draft a tackle this year and develop him for a year or two. Hopefully, they will do that next year.
That is true, but why do we think the guys in the 4th-7th rounds were viable candidates for said long term strategy? If you are criticizing the choice to not draft OL because we need OL, then your criticism is dependent on there actually being viable starters available to draft. Has anyone considered the possibility that rather than neglecting the position the Vikings simply felt that none of the players on the board were NFL caliber, potential or otherwise.

That is why I keep asking the question: If you think the picks suck, then which pick would you have swapped and why that OL guy vs. the guy we picked vs. other guys on the board at the time? It feels like a lot of people are just mad because they didn't draft enough OL guys. I'm curious what this alternate path is that we should have taken. Please late it out for me.
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by Mothman » Tue May 02, 2017 2:04 pm

Dakotavike wrote:Has Ryan Clady signed anywhere yet? I know he's not what he once was but he could provide some depth/competiion. Just a thought.
I think he's still unsigned.
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by nightowl » Tue May 02, 2017 2:11 pm

Dakotavike wrote:Has Ryan Clady signed anywhere yet? I know he's not what he once was but he could provide some depth/competiion. Just a thought.
Clady is still out there. He would be an interesting pickup. Though I wonder if he would accept being a backup at this point. Also how much money would he want?
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by Nunin » Tue May 02, 2017 2:30 pm

Like it or not, the overwhelming majority of NFL players at any position come through the draft. Whether you draft them or are signing another teams pick. Wasn't Remmers on our PS?
-
The key to me is understanding which players fit your system and having the ability to coach them up. It's nice to have a system in place that is stable....and luck always plays into it.
-
My feel is that most GMs and scouts (and analysts for that matter) haven't really examined the technical details of o-line play when looking at prospects. They see player X: all- conference, highly touted, from a big school....he must be good.
Some teams have been ahead of the curve in that dept. and find guys that work based on things more technically 'intimate'....i assume anyway. New England has a good track record for finding UDFA O-linemen who can flourish in their system. If memory serves me Pitt and Denver are others.
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Zimmer shows this apptitude all over the place on Defense. From what I've seen he rarely misses when he sees a guy who he thinks will fit.
The Vikes are not up to snuff on the other side.
The Elfein pick could be huge as many have suggested.
For me, the most important positions on Offense are QB, LT and Center. If this kid can play and be healthy it will be great for the Vikes.
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by Mothman » Tue May 02, 2017 2:50 pm

mansquatch wrote: That is true, but why do we think the guys in the 4th-7th rounds were viable candidates for said long term strategy?
Why limit the discussion to 4th-7th round players?
If you are criticizing the choice to not draft OL because we need OL, then your criticism is dependent on there actually being viable starters available to draft.
There were viable tackles to draft. I don't think that should be in question, even if this draft was short on them. After all, they were drafted.
That is why I keep asking the question: If you think the picks suck, then which pick would you have swapped and why that OL guy vs. the guy we picked vs. other guys on the board at the time? It feels like a lot of people are just mad because they didn't draft enough OL guys. I'm curious what this alternate path is that we should have taken. Please late it out for me.
I didn't say I think the picks suck! I didn't say I was mad either. Please, As a group, let's not spend our time here debating about what it "feels" like people are saying, debating perceived arguments instead of what has actually been written.

I started the thread because the Vikings still have a depth problem on the offensive line and because I wanted to share an article about it. I don't want to go down the path of posting hypothetical scenarios like what you've suggested above because it's almost always a dead end. I addressed some possibilities in the draft thread yesterday and I don't want to repeat them here because I didn't intend this thread to become an argument about Rick Spielman's draft choices in the first place. We know the results of the draft, we know which players were available and we know the Vikes were willing to re-position themselves to either select players or get more picks. It's easy enough to see the possibilities from there. They could have selected a tackle if they'd wanted one. Perhaps, as you and others have suggested, they simply didn't feel any of them were worth the effort. If so, that's a perfectly legitimate position for them to take. They need to trust their assessments but the depth problem remains and I intended the thread to be about that issue. Where do they go from here? That's the question that concerns me. Have they taken enough steps toward addressing their issues in the long term or have they just put another band-aid over a broken leg, like they did last season? I feel they still have quite a bit of work to do and while I realize it's not a problem that can be wholly solved in one offseason, I don't think they've done enough to address it yet this year.
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by CbusVikesFan » Tue May 02, 2017 4:14 pm

Mothman wrote:I started the thread because the Vikings still have a depth problem on the offensive line and because I wanted to share an article about it. I don't want to go down the path of posting hypothetical scenarios like what you've suggested above because it's almost always a dead end. I addressed some possibilities in the draft thread yesterday and I don't want to repeat them here because I didn't intend this thread to become an argument about Rick Spielman's draft choices in the first place. We know the results of the draft, we know which players were available and we know the Vikes were willing to re-position themselves to either select players or get more picks. It's easy enough to see the possibilities from there. They could have selected a tackle if they'd wanted one. Perhaps, as you and others have suggested, they simply didn't feel any of them were worth the effort. If so, that's a perfectly legitimate position for them to take. They need to trust their assessments but the depth problem remains and I intended the thread to be about that issue. Where do they go from here? That's the question that concerns me. Have they taken enough steps toward addressing their issues in the long term or have they just put another band-aid over a broken leg, like they did last season? I feel they still have quite a bit of work to do and while I realize it's not a problem that can be wholly solved in one offseason, I don't think they've done enough to address it yet this year.
This thread could have been started 5 years ago. Along with a QB, LB, G, and a half dozen other positions on both sides of the ball. Does anyone remember all the bemoaning everyone did about WR's a few years ago? What do we have after all of these years? One proven guy that was drafted. I'm amazed at how bad the line was and how well Bradford did in spite of it. And to not bolster the sorest spot on the offense long term befuddles me. If the Vikings play it right, Sam will get us where we want to go. Have to put the right pieces in front of him. It wouldn't have killed us to draft at least one frickin tackle. Someone needs to tell Rick that Moss is not walking through that door to play ever again and there was only one. Lay off the wr's for a minute. How many have been drafted since Rick has been here?
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by S197 » Tue May 02, 2017 4:31 pm

Nunin wrote:Like it or not, the overwhelming majority of NFL players at any position come through the draft. Whether you draft them or are signing another teams pick. Wasn't Remmers on our PS?
-
The key to me is understanding which players fit your system and having the ability to coach them up. It's nice to have a system in place that is stable....and luck always plays into it.
-
My feel is that most GMs and scouts (and analysts for that matter) haven't really examined the technical details of o-line play when looking at prospects. They see player X: all- conference, highly touted, from a big school....he must be good.
Some teams have been ahead of the curve in that dept. and find guys that work based on things more technically 'intimate'....i assume anyway. New England has a good track record for finding UDFA O-linemen who can flourish in their system. If memory serves me Pitt and Denver are others.
-
Zimmer shows this apptitude all over the place on Defense. From what I've seen he rarely misses when he sees a guy who he thinks will fit.
The Vikes are not up to snuff on the other side.
The Elfein pick could be huge as many have suggested.
For me, the most important positions on Offense are QB, LT and Center. If this kid can play and be healthy it will be great for the Vikes.
I've noticed that with a lot of the line picks this year, the players have wrestling backgrounds (think this was mentioned on NFLN during the draft). They're also good in space either as a pulling guard or in a zone blocking scheme. The Vikings seem to be focusing more on athleticism and technique rather than your prototypical sized linemen.
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by Mothman » Tue May 02, 2017 4:32 pm

CbusVikesFan wrote:This thread could have been started 5 years ago. Along with a QB, LB, G, and a half dozen other positions on both sides of the ball. Does anyone remember all the bemoaning everyone did about WR's a few years ago? What do we have after all of these years? One proven guy that was drafted. I'm amazed at how bad the line was and how well Bradford did in spite of it. And to not bolster the sorest spot on the offense long term befuddles me. If the Vikings play it right, Sam will get us where we want to go. Have to put the right pieces in front of him. It wouldn't have killed us to draft at least one frickin tackle. Someone needs to tell Rick that Moss is not walking through that door to play ever again and there was only one. Lay off the wr's for a minute. How many have been drafted since Rick has been here?
12 (13 if you count Joe Webb, who was initially drafted to play WR). 4 of them were drafted in the first 2 rounds.
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by Nunin » Tue May 02, 2017 4:39 pm

S197 wrote: I've noticed that with a lot of the line picks this year, the players have wrestling backgrounds (think this was mentioned on NFLN during the draft). They're also good in space either as a pulling guard or in a zone blocking scheme. The Vikings seem to be focusing more on athleticism and technique rather than your prototypical sized linemen.
That would represent a significant change IMO. I thought they were going that route when the picked Yankey...but he never made the grade. At any rate it looks like there is some shift of focus...just with the wrestling backround stuff. That would represent technical intimacy to me.
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by Nunin » Tue May 02, 2017 4:40 pm

Mothman wrote: 12 (13 if you count Joe Webb, who was initially drafted to play WR). 4 of them were drafted in the first 2 rounds.
and a few FA pickups to boot. More of the cart before the horse stuff. Not sure how one can truly evaluate what a WR can bring to the table if you can't keep your QB upright.
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Re: Vikings still have to add depth at offensive tackle

Post by S197 » Tue May 02, 2017 4:41 pm

Mothman wrote:Where do they go from here? That's the question that concerns me. Have they taken enough steps toward addressing their issues in the long term or have they just put another band-aid over a broken leg, like they did last season? I feel they still have quite a bit of work to do and while I realize it's not a problem that can be wholly solved in one offseason, I don't think they've done enough to address it yet this year.
I think it's somewhere in the middle right now. The projected starting line is an upgrade and with players who do not have the injury history of our previous tackles. They shored up the interior of the line and I think they have pretty good depth there.

That being said, it's football and if Reiff and/or Remmers goes down, it may spell trouble. Hill looked decent and may provide depth but his body of work is limited. Sirles may work in a pinch but difficult to tell.

I think depending on how the rookie's work out determines if they've done enough. Ideally Elflein becomes your long-term center and perhaps Isidora can take over for Berger who probably has a year or two left in the tank. Hopefully someone (anyone!) can beat Clemmings out of a backup job.

My early assessment is they could probably use a better depth player at RT. They may have that in a guy like Shepherd but that remains to be seen.
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