View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:02 am



Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit! 
Author Message
Hall of Fame Candidate
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
Posts: 3226
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
Mothman wrote:

I think it simply implies a different view of the team. Remember, not all of us think the Vikings slide last year was simply attributable to poor OL or tackle play. I certainly don't believe that. The defense wasn't the same unit after the bye week. The passing game had other issues.


How would you explain the defensive decline after the bye week?


Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:22 am
Profile
Pro Bowl Elite Player

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:20 pm
Posts: 993
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
Mothman wrote:
mansquatch wrote:
I find Gosslings take to be ridiculous. Right now it is probably safe to assume that everything will be equal to last year in terms of players that were in purple last season. So based on what actually changed, this take implies an assumption that Reiff/ Remmers will be as bad or worse than Clemmings /Sirles and that Latavius Murray will not be an improvement over McKinnon/Asiata.


I think it simply implies a different view of the team. Remember, not all of us think the Vikings slide last year was simply attributable to poor OL or tackle play. I certainly don't believe that. The defense wasn't the same unit after the bye week. The passing game had other issues.

I don't think Goessling's take is sillier than any other prediction of how the entire schedule will play out at this point. It's obviously early so when you get right down to it, the exercise is silly on it's surface. However, it looks to me like the Vikes are steering a straight course into continued mediocrity. Barring a Rookie of the Year-like impact from someone they draft or the unexpected emergence of someone on offense into a star, I expect them to finish somewhere between 7-9 and 9-7.



I tend to agree with you Jim......plus the Viks have not matured into a consistently good team. We have seen them be very good then lose games they are not supposed to lose. Good teams rise to the occasion 75% of the time (random feel good number). Can the Viks take that next step??? Hopefully it will be a fruitful draft concentrating on OL DT LB RB


Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:27 am
Profile
Hall of Fame Candidate
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
Posts: 3226
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
autobon7 wrote:
Hopefully it will be a fruitful draft concentrating on OL DT LB RB


I think they have 2.5 holes on defense. They really need a 3 tech who can be effective against the run (Maybe Dalvin Tomlinson could fulfil both those roles?) and they really need an OLB who isn't a total liability in the passing game. Its possible that role could be filled by a hybrid S. Sendejo is competent at this point, but an upgrade at S to slam the door on the deep passing game and this defense COULD be elite.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:40 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37219
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
fiestavike wrote:
How would you explain the defensive decline after the bye week?


I don't think there's a singular explanation. Some of it was due to matchups that worked against them. Some of it was strategic. Smith's injury definitely hurt them against Indy. Fatigue and frustration were probably factors at times too, when the offense could't provide decent support. It was a variety of factors but overall, they just didn't play well for a lot of that stretch. They had their moments. For example, the defense had a very strong game against Dallas but overall, after the bye, there were too many breakdowns (missed tackles, blown coverages, etc.).

A couple of examples:

They clearly didn't match up well with the Bears running game. Howard gashed them for about 280 yards rushing in 2 games. Fortunately, in the second game, the Bears were starting a QB who couldn't stop turning the ball over.

The Colts took advantage of Smith's absence by keeping the Vikes in base personnel and attacking the middle of the field. With Smith out, the Vikes remaining LBs and safeties couldn't handle it.

Your second post touched on a few key issues. Their run defense needs work and their LBs (and safeties not named Smith) can be exploited in pass coverage. Teams well-equipped to attack them in one or both areas seem able to do real damage, especially when the pass rush falters.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:25 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37219
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
autobon7 wrote:
I tend to agree with you Jim......plus the Viks have not matured into a consistently good team. We have seen them be very good then lose games they are not supposed to lose. Good teams rise to the occasion 75% of the time (random feel good number). Can the Viks take that next step??? Hopefully it will be a fruitful draft concentrating on OL DT LB RB


Fingers crossed!


Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:27 am
Profile
Starting Wide Receiver
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:48 pm
Posts: 17771
Location: Crystal, MN
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
They had some injuries too. Oddly, the decline began when Sendajo got hurt. Didn't Kendrick miss a game too?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

_________________
The Devil whispered in the Viking's ear, "There's a storm coming." The Viking replied, "I am the storm." ‪#‎SKOL2016‬


Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:47 pm
Profile YIM WWW
All Pro Elite Player

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:06 pm
Posts: 1252
Location: New Hope, MN
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
RFIP wrote:
akvikingsfan wrote:
I'm counting four prime time games? Not bad. It'll be an interesting season.


I got 3 Prime time games. The London game is in the morning.


Oh correct. I missed that, just saw that it was on NFLN and assumed prime time. Thanks.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:14 pm
Profile WWW
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6536
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
Mothman wrote:
I see yours too and it may surprise you to learn the view you expressed above isn't much different than mine. I agree: they lost several games that could have gone the other way. Had they won them, they could have returned to the playoffs but as we both know, they didn't win them. They ended up 8-8. They've had many seasons where they lost close games and missed the playoffs when a few of those games could have put them in the postseason but that's what mediocre teams do: they hover near the middle. It sounds harsh but it's the truth. Sometimes enough goes right for them to get to the wild card round. Sometimes enough goes wrong that they end up with a losing season or at .500 but most of the time, they're playing within that range.

I seem to come at the same information from a different angle than many Vikes fans here and I sometimes wonder if that creates the illusion of more disagreement than actually exists.Once the results are in the books I tend to focus on those established outcomes much more than the wouldas, couldas and shouldas. I got tired of moral victories for the Vikings a long time ago.

Totally understand your point. Results are what matter. But the journey to the result suggests what needs to happen to get better.

The point that mansquatch, myself and some others are making is that the consistent problem -- with the notable exceptions of the losses to Indy and Green Bay, where the defense fell apart -- was the offense. Specifically the offensive line. So if the most pressing problem is the offense, then any upgrades to the offense are reasons for optimism, at least to me and a few others. The offensive line IS upgraded, even if the upgrades aren't all-pro players. The running back position, as compared to last year, is improved. We lost Patterson, which won't likely be a huge loss in production, even if it's a loss in potential.

Yes, the defense played poorly at times, but they were excellent in both losses to Detroit and the loss to Dallas. They also were excellent early against Philly and gave the Vikings great field position time after time, which the offense repeatedly squandered. It happened all too often that the offense left the defense in extremely difficult positions. That takes a toll after awhile, and I think they wore down by the last 4 games. Maybe that's unacceptable, and I could live with that opinion. But at some point, after carrying the team for most of the year, they were bound to break. If anything was unsustainable, it was that.

Get better on offense, and I believe this team has a chance to contend. I believed it last year, and I'll continue to believe it this year. Of course, we can speculate until the cows come home as to whether the offense will actually improve, but until they prove it on the field, they're an 8-8 team.

_________________
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:44 pm
Profile
Strong Safety
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:05 am
Posts: 11402
Location: California
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
I think by far our OL either makes us and sets up for another
chance at real success or we become a slightly than better than
average team. If we can run the ball and have some level of
pass protection I honestly believe we have a shot. Our defense
is very good(and yes they fell apart two games last season but
defense and special teams won us several games two. I like
Reiff and have a few doubts on Remmers (sp) but we finally
dumped Khalil and they have to better than Clemmings.

_________________
no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!


Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:00 pm
Profile
Veteran

Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:02 pm
Posts: 212
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
jackal wrote:
I think by far our OL either makes us and sets up for another
chance at real success or we become a slightly than better than
average team. If we can run the ball and have some level of
pass protection I honestly believe we have a shot. Our defense
is very good(and yes they fell apart two games last season but
defense and special teams won us several games two. I like
Reiff and have a few doubts on Remmers (sp) but we finally
dumped Khalil and they have to better than Clemmings.



This defense is built on speed and ability to rush the passer, mostly with 4 guys. If the offense improves like I believe it will, this D will hunt. They are not currently constructed with run stuffers especially with the Floyd situation, thus teams learned to play keep away and field position in the second 1/2 of last year.

Let the O improve and this D WILL take it from there.


Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:01 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37219
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Totally understand your point. Results are what matter. But the journey to the result suggests what needs to happen to get better.

The point that mansquatch, myself and some others are making is that the consistent problem -- with the notable exceptions of the losses to Indy and Green Bay, where the defense fell apart -- was the offense. Specifically the offensive line. So if the most pressing problem is the offense, then any upgrades to the offense are reasons for optimism, at least to me and a few others. The offensive line IS upgraded, even if the upgrades aren't all-pro players. The running back position, as compared to last year, is improved. We lost Patterson, which won't likely be a huge loss in production, even if it's a loss in potential.

Yes, the defense played poorly at times, but they were excellent in both losses to Detroit and the loss to Dallas. They also were excellent early against Philly and gave the Vikings great field position time after time, which the offense repeatedly squandered. It happened all too often that the offense left the defense in extremely difficult positions. That takes a toll after awhile, and I think they wore down by the last 4 games. Maybe that's unacceptable, and I could live with that opinion. But at some point, after carrying the team for most of the year, they were bound to break. If anything was unsustainable, it was that.

Get better on offense, and I believe this team has a chance to contend. I believed it last year, and I'll continue to believe it this year. Of course, we can speculate until the cows come home as to whether the offense will actually improve, but until they prove it on the field, they're an 8-8 team.


You've touched on a few areas where my perceptions and yours, mansquatch's and others don't align. I agree that the offense has been the most pressing problem but we disagree in regard to the defense. Their worst performances were against Green Bay and Indy but I wouldn't characterize their performances in either Detroit game as excellent. They collapsed and gave up leads very late in both games, which is not indicative of excellence (at least not to me). As I pointed out in a post above, over the course of 2 games against Chicago, Jordan Howard gashed them for over 280 yards. That's a problem and it led to another key loss within the division. They allowed The Redskins to rush for well over 100 yards too. They gave up 20+ points in 5 straight games after the bye. That's certainly not awful on it's surface but when both the strategy and expectation seem to be for them to hold teams to less than that, it's problematic. In other words, when I look at last season's "journey to the results" and consider what the team needs to do to get better, I see a need for improvement on offense and defense. The defense has been too vulnerable to power running games and has allowed too many blowouts over the past few years. That needs to change as surely as the offense needs to improve and score more points. Either that or the offense needs to get a LOT better.

Quote:
Get better on offense, and I believe this team has a chance to contend. I believed it last year, and I'll continue to believe it this year. Of course, we can speculate until the cows come home as to whether the offense will actually improve, but until they prove it on the field, they're an 8-8 team.


I agree. I've never been on the opposite side of the argument that upgrading the offense could give them a chance to contend but I think those upgrades may need to be more significant than those they've made so far this offseason, at least if we're talking about contending for more than another one-and-done playoff appearance. Let's see what the draft brings... I hope its not Mixon.


Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:07 am
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:56 am
Posts: 5627
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
This one looks pretty rough. There are a lot of teams that could be quite good this upcoming year as the "easy games."

The divisional games at the end all look tough to me.


Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:53 pm
Profile
Starter
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:08 am
Posts: 176
Location: Portland, OR
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
I'm bummed that they will not be having a home game around Christmas again this year. I figured since they were away last year, they'd be home this year. Was really hoping I'd get to see a game in the stadium. At least we got to sneak on to a last minute tour of the stadium last Christmastime so I got to see the inside. I guess always next year.....


Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:22 pm
Profile
Fenrir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Posts: 10694
Location: Hawaii
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
Looks like I'll be at the home opener again this year. Anyone want to meet up, shoot me a PM. Will be bitter sweet if AD ends up signing with the Saints.


Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:07 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Candidate

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Posts: 3291
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
Mothman wrote:
You've touched on a few areas where my perceptions and yours, mansquatch's and others don't align. I agree that the offense has been the most pressing problem but we disagree in regard to the defense. Their worst performances were against Green Bay and Indy but I wouldn't characterize their performances in either Detroit game as excellent. They collapsed and gave up leads very late in both games, which is not indicative of excellence (at least not to me). As I pointed out in a post above, over the course of 2 games against Chicago, Jordan Howard gashed them for over 280 yards. That's a problem and it led to another key loss within the division. They allowed The Redskins to rush for well over 100 yards too. They gave up 20+ points in 5 straight games after the bye. That's certainly not awful on it's surface but when both the strategy and expectation seem to be for them to hold teams to less than that, it's problematic. In other words, when I look at last season's "journey to the results" and consider what the team needs to do to get better, I see a need for improvement on offense and defense. The defense has been too vulnerable to power running games and has allowed too many blowouts over the past few years. That needs to change as surely as the offense needs to improve and score more points. Either that or the offense needs to get a LOT better.


I dunno Jim, in the case of each of the games Kapp mentioned the Offense basically gave us nothing with constant blown possessions and three and outs. (The WSH game is another example.) In each of these cases had the offense sustained even one additional drive, then the TOP would have changed and the defense would likely not have had the opportunity to collapse late as it did in each of those games.

That is five games that easily could have been wins had the offense visited the red zone even one more time. Let alone the middle of the season where they failed to punch into on multiple occaisions from 1st and goal on the 1 yard line.

I think they could add Aaron Donald and they'd still probably lose at least half those games with the 2016 offense.

_________________
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi


Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:26 pm
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37219
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: 2017 Vikings Schedule!! Turkey Day AGAIN at Detroit!
mansquatch wrote:
I dunno Jim, in the case of each of the games Kapp mentioned the Offense basically gave us nothing with constant blown possessions and three and outs. (The WSH game is another example.) In each of these cases had the offense sustained even one additional drive, then the TOP would have changed and the defense would likely not have had the opportunity to collapse late as it did in each of those games.


Unfortunately, they did have that opportunity and in those particular games, they didn't get the job done with the outcome on the line. I'm not blaming them alone for those losses but they share responsibility. Even if the offense has a bad game overall, if the team has managed to put enough points on the board to give the defense a lead to protect with one minute remaining (or even with 5 minutes left), isn't it incumbent upon the defense to do their job and protect that lead?


Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:51 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: PsyDanny and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.