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 Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling 
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Post Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling
fiestavike wrote:
I recognize the correlation, but I'm not certain about the causation yet.


You'll get there. ;)

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I hope to see the Wilfs exercise the kind of patience that we've seen in Pittsburg over the years. If they are applying pressure to 'win now', this team is probably 1-2 years out from full rebuilding mode. If they mortgaged the future in order to not have to open the stadium with a backup QB, that doesn't reassure me about the Wilfs. If Spielman invested in Bradford as a solid longterm solution, I feel a little better about it, despite my lukewarm opinion of Bradford as an NFL QB.

I didn't like Childress from the get go, and I think it was the right move to fire him, but I liked that they seemed to show some interest in continuity by retaining Frazier. It wasn't the right move, but it was a good instinct in my opinion. The problem was they had a wrong vision in the first place, and it never seemed to be a vision shared by the full organization.

Do they have the right vision this time around with Zimmer?


That's my point: it's not just Zimmer's vision. It begins above him. He represents another chapter in an era of Vikings football largely defined by Spielman and the Wilfs.

We agree about the importance of continuity, although as I've said many times, for that to yield the kind of success it has in Pittsburgh over the decades requires a commitment to the right people in the first place. That said, I don't think they necessarily made the wrong move in hiring Frazier. Where they went wrong is in hiring him without making a serious commitment and without hiring a GM first (a mistake they made with Childress too). They launched into a rebuilding mode without fully committing to the coach they'd selected to guide the team through it and undermined his chances of success for 3 years, until he was inevitably fired. They seem more committed to Zimmer and at least they now have a GM in place who fully supports (and hired) the head coach) but there are troublesome signs that not enough has truly changed, some of which you mentioned below.

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I don't know, but I like transitioning to an aggressive defense in todays NFL. The key is to get the whole organization on the same page going forward. That means you don't try to run the cover 2 and fail to invest in LBers capable of playing it at a high level. You don't try to run Turner's offense and neglect the OT position. And now, you can't try to run Shurmurs system and not get him offensive weapons that can create mismatches. You can't run Zimmer's defense and fail to have a true, effective 3 technique, and a safety who can allow more versatility. I'm reassured by the OTs they targetted in FA that they are at least looking for personnel to match their system, and not bringing in guys like Wagner to run the system we just left behind. I have a similar take on letting Peterson walk. On the other hand, Its a slight mystery to me that they let Patterson walk as we institute an offense which could make better use of his talents, but I have heard from a couple sources that he is such a goofball that maybe it was more of a cultural/personality issue than a scheme fit issue.

I haven't drawn a conclussion on the Wilfs yet, except that they are 100 percent an improvement over the ownership group and Red McCombs.


They aren't stripping the team down and trying to sell off the parts, so that's a big plus!


Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:04 am
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Post Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling
Mothman wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
I recognize the correlation, but I'm not certain about the causation yet.


You'll get there. ;)




If you are right, I would share your perspective. There would be no point in being a fan so long as the Wilfs own the team, which is pretty grim. It would just be time to move on and do something else with ones energy and passions.

I am often tempted even without fully sharing your take on ownership. ;)


Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:35 am
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Post Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling
I dont understand folks who have a huge concern about the WIlfs....
They seem to be willing to let the football people run the day to day workings.
The only concern I have is that they might just be too loyal and committed to certain employees like Spielman. Other then that I hardly get the feeling that Ziggy is a northern version of Jerry Jones. He got the stadium deal done, He built a really cool place for the team, he puts out big bucks forthe GM to spend on talent....what more do you want from an owner?


Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:44 am
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Post Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling
fiestavike wrote:
If you are right, I would share your perspective. There would be no point in being a fan so long as the Wilfs own the team, which is pretty grim. It would just be time to move on and do something else with ones energy and passions.

I am often tempted even without fully sharing your take on ownership. ;)


:lol:

What gives me hope is the Wilfs appear to be experiencing an ownership learning curve. I think it's possible they just need to take more steps along that path, although I sure wish it was a shorter path.


Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:47 am
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Post Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling
It would appear that nothing is on a quick curve when it comes to the Vikes.
The ONLY time I can recall them being ahead of the crowd was many decades ago when they created a Pass first offense where you passed to set up the run back in Tarkenton's Day, otherwise its been a looooong time since we were the innovative team leading the curve.


Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:19 am
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Post Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling
chicagopurple wrote:
I dont understand folks who have a huge concern about the WIlfs....
They seem to be willing to let the football people run the day to day workings.
The only concern I have is that they might just be too loyal and committed to certain employees like Spielman. Other then that I hardly get the feeling that Ziggy is a northern version of Jerry Jones. He got the stadium deal done, He built a really cool place for the team, he puts out big bucks forthe GM to spend on talent....what more do you want from an owner?


I'd like them to build a winner. ;)

My concern has nothing to do with stadiums or financial commitment. I'm glad they were able to keep the team in Minnesota and are willing to spend money on it. My concern is with the way they've managed the team thus far. Firing Tice in the manner they did at the end of the 2005 season was an impetuous, classless error in judgment. Hiring Childress before hiring a GM was a mistake. Extending his contract in 2009 was another mistake. Firing him and then hiring Frazier as head coach while retaining their ill-conceived triangular management structure was yet another huge error. I'm glad they're willing to let the football people run things now but do they have the right people in place? Will they keep making ill-advised, impetuous decisions?

I didn't define this as the Wilf/Spielman era because I have concerns about the Wilfs being day-to-day meddlers but because their choices, and Spielman's, have defined the last 12 years of Vikings football.


Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:36 am
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Post Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling
What about growth in the position? Have things gotten better since 12 years ago or worse?

If you are going to indict the Wilfs then it would seem only fair to look at the body of work with a temporal adjustment of some kind or are folks convinced that they are the same old, same old? (Good thing Robert Kraft didn't think that way about Belicik after his time with the Browns...)

Same with Spielman. It is way too easy to say he has been responsible for the past 12 years when he didn't have full control until 2011. How do you assess his performance then? How much of the past 6 seasons were on him?

I agree, our playoff run has been poor. But what is the solution? How much of it is attributable to bad luck? Bad coaching hires? Bad personnel moves? Injuries? it is easy to say it sucks. What is the right lever to pull to fix it? Why?

Want a real eye opener on GMing? Look at the Patriots record in the draft. It is awful. Yet they are the best team in the NFL. Hmm... Are we even looking in the right place?

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Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:56 am
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Post Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling
mansquatch wrote:
What about growth in the position? Have things gotten better since 12 years ago or worse?


As I wrote above: "What gives me hope is the Wilfs appear to be experiencing an ownership learning curve." If it wasn't clear from that statement, I think they've made progress on that curve.

Quote:
Same with Spielman. It is way too easy to say he has been responsible for the past 12 years when he didn't have full control until 2011. How do you assess his performance then? How much of the past 6 seasons were on him?


I've answered that question dozens of times already and I didn't say Spielman has been responsible for the last 12 years. He hasn't even been with the team that long. That's the length of the Wilf's tenure as owners.

Quote:
I agree, our playoff run has been poor. But what is the solution? How much of it is attributable to bad luck? Bad coaching hires? Bad personnel moves? Injuries? it is easy to say it sucks. What is the right lever to pull to fix it? Why?


There is no singular lever.

Quote:
Want a real eye opener on GMing? Look at the Patriots record in the draft. It is awful. Yet they are the best team in the NFL. Hmm... Are we even looking in the right place?


Where else is there to look beyond the people making the most crucial decisions?


Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:17 pm
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Post Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling
or compare to GB who draft incredibly well and virtually never go to buying free agents......


Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:52 pm
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Post Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling
For me, the clock starts with Zimmer. Everything is so opaque before that. We know with absolute certainly who is the GM and who he wanted as HC starting with Zimmer. Before that, all we know is there was delegation of authority and maybe some sort of power struggle. That's not meant as giving Spielman a pass, just pointing out that the level of responsibility he should have is a lot harder to rate than it is now.

I think it's fairly universal that Childress was a poor HC here. I think Frazier was not any better. He comes from a defensive background and managed to field the worst defense in the NFL. Something Zimmer was able to change in two years. If Frazier was given such a bad situation, he should have flourished elsewhere but his defense was poor in Tampa and he was lost that job too, demoted to a secondary coach in Baltimore. He has another chance with Buffalo but his trajectory over multiple teams has been down.

I realize we're not all going to agree here and so much hinges on this years success. At the very least, there's a great deal of organizational transparency now, which we didn't have for many years. Lets hope it was the missing link to success.


Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:29 pm
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Post Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling
Bah! This sums up my feelings better than the long post it's replacing:

:wallbang:


Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:13 pm
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