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 Try and be Positive..... 
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
mansquatch wrote:
I dissagree, you are on the 1 yard line you expect your OL to get some push, especially with a back like Asiata who's strength is between the tackles. Those few opportunities were routinely squandered by a lack of push in the interior. And by lack I mean they went backwards.


RFIP's point was about red zone play calling, not just play calling from the 1 yard line.

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On the passing side of things, who many times did we see a bull rush blow past Clemmings and smash Bradford or force an early throw?

There are no plays to call that defeat those blocking deficiencies inside the 20s.


It's not a one year problem and they still needed to call plays, blocking defiicincies or not. Justifying conservative playcalling by saying the line was so bad they couldn't run or pass makes little sense to me since those were the only two options available and they chose one of them every time. :)

After 3 years, it seems safe to say the playcalling has been conservative because the coaching has clearly been conservative.


Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:12 am
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
Mothman wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
I expect a change in this regard. Turner's offense was more complex and had a higher standard to get on the field. Of the players you listed starting as rookies, two were on defense and the offensive player only got a shot because of an injury.


In Diggs' case, what created the opportunity doesn't seem particularly relevant. There were veteran alternatives available when Diggs got his first start against the Broncos last year but he got the start anyway and kept starting. I just don't think there's any substantive evidence of a philosophical unwillingness to start rookies unless we simply rationalize away glaring exceptions to that supposed philosophy. Waynes didn't start immediately because he was behind more qualified, game-ready veterans. That's the case with most rookies. There are typically better options. When this staff considers a rookie the best option, they seem to start them. Kendricks didn't start from the beginning of his rookie season either but it quickly became apparent he was ready and able to do so and once they concluded he was their best option at that position, he became the starter.


Fair point on Diggs, but I think, unlike Treadwell or Patterson, he grasped what he needed to do as a rookie. Anyway, my point isn't that rookie=can't play, just that there is a correlation between being a rookie and not being able to meet the offensive standard of the past OC.


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I expect Shurmur will be willing to specialize a lot more on offense which will make room for younger players. My big concern is that Treadwell was drafted to fit Turner's offense and Shurmur will struggle to find how he wants to use him.


I'm not sure he was a good fit for Turner's offense. :( You could be right that we'll see more specialization and that could create more opportunities for rookie skill position players.

There's certainly nothing about a WCO that should prevent them from making good use of Treadwell if he proves himself capable of playing good football as a pro.


That's not really true. Some of the negatives attributed to Treadwell pre-draft could be a bigger negative in a WCO than in Air Coryell. I don't have enough of a sense of Treadwells game in the NFL to say for sure, but its a concern.


Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:16 am
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
fiestavike wrote:
Fair point on Diggs, but I think, unlike Treadwell or Patterson, he grasped what he needed to do as a rookie. Anyway, my point isn't that rookie=can't play, just that there is a correlation between being a rookie and not being able to meet the offensive standard of the past OC.


... or, in many cases, any OC. As I said, most rookies don't start immediately because they're behind more qualified, game-ready veterans.

My point here was simply that I don't think there's any strict, "rookies don't start" philosophy at work on the Vikings staff.

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That's not really true. Some of the negatives attributed to Treadwell pre-draft could be a bigger negative in a WCO than in Air Coryell.


... and the positives attributed to Treadwell pre-draft could be an asset in a WCO. His footwork, using his size to shield the ball from defenders and running effectively after the catch are all supposed to be strengths of his game. In college, he did a lot of work running underneath routes. All of those attributes should serve him well in a WCO. He should be able to play effectively within the system.


Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:32 am
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
Mothman wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
Fair point on Diggs, but I think, unlike Treadwell or Patterson, he grasped what he needed to do as a rookie. Anyway, my point isn't that rookie=can't play, just that there is a correlation between being a rookie and not being able to meet the offensive standard of the past OC.


... or, in many cases, any OC. As I said, most rookies don't start immediately because they're behind more qualified, game-ready veterans.

My point here was simply that I don't think there's any strict, "rookies don't start" philosophy at work on the Vikings staff.


We agree about that!


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Quote:
That's not really true. Some of the negatives attributed to Treadwell pre-draft could be a bigger negative in a WCO than in Air Coryell.


... and the positives attributed to Treadwell pre-draft could be an asset in a WCO. His footwork, using his size to shield the ball from defenders and running effectively after the catch are all supposed to be strengths of his game. In college, he did a lot of work running underneath routes. All of those attributes should serve him well in a WCO. He should be able to play effectively within the system.


It could be. I haven't given up hope on him, just worried about his fit. He was drafted to be an outside guy but I just see him having a higher chance of success in the slot now. I don't feel expert enough about his strengths and weaknesses to feel certain of that analysis. Its mostly based on pre-draft scouting and looking for mismatches, which I do believe will be central to the 2017 Vikings offensive success/failure.


Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:38 am
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
fiestavike wrote:
We agree about that!


:banana:

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It could be. I haven't given up hope on him, just worried about his fit. He was drafted to be an outside guy but I just see him having a higher chance of success in the slot now. I don't feel expert enough about his strengths and weaknesses to feel certain of that analysis. Its mostly based on pre-draft scouting and looking for mismatches, which I do believe will be central to the 2017 Vikings offensive success/failure.


I understand your concern. I think he could conceivably fit well as a slot WR/slot back (depending on how we want to describe the position). He could be useful on the outside too but it would depend on how effectively he can fight off press coverage and run precise routes.

We'll see how they try to use him and how he performs. There's definitely reason for concern when it comes to Treadwell.


Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:51 pm
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
I think we are straying from the topic...

Not saying this isn't a good or worthy discussion but there are numerous other areas said discussions can take place.


Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:35 pm
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
S197 wrote:
I think we are straying from the topic...

Not saying this isn't a good or worthy discussion but there are numerous other areas said discussions can take place.


True. My bad. I'm optimistic that Moritz Boehringer will make an impact this preseason! Mr. Mankato 2017, I predict.

I never understand why journalism is so lazy that they only cover the BIG story where they are handed quotes, and never try to ferret out unique stories like they might find about Boehringer, Alexander, Treadwell...What's going to happen with Matt Asiata, just give us a profile of a hardworking guy who may be out of the league now. The piece Peter Kind did on Zach Line years ago was fun. I can't understand why local media don't follow more stories like that...damnit I'm off topic again.


Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:01 pm
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
S197 wrote:
I think we are straying from the topic...

Not saying this isn't a good or worthy discussion but there are numerous other areas said discussions can take place.


Let me fix that: I'm positive this was the only thread in which discussions of Treadwell and red zone scoring could have taken place today. :)


Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:17 pm
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
fiestavike wrote:
S197 wrote:
I think we are straying from the topic...

Not saying this isn't a good or worthy discussion but there are numerous other areas said discussions can take place.


True. My bad. I'm optimistic that Moritz Boehringer will make an impact this preseason! Mr. Mankato 2017, I predict.

I never understand why journalism is so lazy that they only cover the BIG story where they are handed quotes, and never try to ferret out unique stories like they might find about Boehringer, Alexander, Treadwell...What's going to happen with Matt Asiata, just give us a profile of a hardworking guy who may be out of the league now. The piece Peter Kind did on Zach Line years ago was fun. I can't understand why local media don't follow more stories like that...damnit I'm off topic again.


It will be interesting to see how MoBo has improved after a year in the NFL. I wonder if they'll try him at TE, he has the size and they don't really have a pass catching TE behind Rudolph.


Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:27 pm
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
Mothman wrote:
S197 wrote:
I think we are straying from the topic...

Not saying this isn't a good or worthy discussion but there are numerous other areas said discussions can take place.


Let me fix that: I'm positive this was the only thread in which discussions of Treadwell and red zone scoring could have taken place today. :)


:spanking:


Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:27 pm
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
S197 wrote:
Mothman wrote:
S197 wrote:
I think we are straying from the topic...

Not saying this isn't a good or worthy discussion but there are numerous other areas said discussions can take place.


Let me fix that: I'm positive this was the only thread in which discussions of Treadwell and red zone scoring could have taken place today. :)


:spanking:


I deserve it.


Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:33 pm
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
Its that "At least get a FG " approach that has been losing us games for years. Need an aggressive mental adjustment. There's a time for a FG approach, but not ALL the time


Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:30 pm
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
Wow, thats really positive hoping MoBo does something. Stranger things have happened, but his not even know the language is a pretty high hurdle to cross.


Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:21 am
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
Laserman wrote:
Its that "At least get a FG " approach that has been losing us games for years. Need an aggressive mental adjustment. There's a time for a FG approach, but not ALL the time

I agree. You rarely, if ever, see New England or even Green Bay play like that. To. Me it is cowardly and stupid.

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Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:07 am
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Laserman wrote:
Its that "At least get a FG " approach that has been losing us games for years. Need an aggressive mental adjustment. There's a time for a FG approach, but not ALL the time

I agree. You rarely, if ever, see New England or even Green Bay play like that. To. Me it is cowardly and stupid.


But most importantly, it's not positive! :)

I've created a new thread for the red zone play calling talk:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29789


Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:39 am
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
Mothman wrote:
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Laserman wrote:
Its that "At least get a FG " approach that has been losing us games for years. Need an aggressive mental adjustment. There's a time for a FG approach, but not ALL the time

I agree. You rarely, if ever, see New England or even Green Bay play like that. To. Me it is cowardly and stupid.


But most importantly, it's not positive! :)

I've created a new thread for the red zone play calling talk:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29789

Lol, all of the threads usually blend together... I have no idea which one I am reading half the time.

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Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:41 am
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Lol, all of the threads usually blend together... I have no idea which one I am reading half the time.

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So where DO you think Peterson will finally land?


Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:21 am
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Laserman wrote:
Its that "At least get a FG " approach that has been losing us games for years. Need an aggressive mental adjustment. There's a time for a FG approach, but not ALL the time

I agree. You rarely, if ever, see New England or even Green Bay play like that. To. Me it is cowardly and stupid.

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Being positive here. It's actually smart with the defense they have and the running game they used to have. Control the clock and play field position. With the emphasis moving away from a run first offense, I believe the Vikings will be forced to take more chances on offense.

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Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:09 pm
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
[quote="fiestavike"

Chucking the ball up looking for a high point reception is only consistently effective if you draw a mismatch. Otherwise its a pretty low percentage play. I'm not sure how well Treadwell's skill set is going to match up, but I feel like his best chance to contribute might be in the slot. His excellent run blocking could make him a kind of hybrid TE, providing a mismatch in the run game. Slot corners provide a height mismatch, maybe they bring a CB2 into the slot out of position, maybe they play a S on him and open up a deep shot for Diggs or Thielen, force the FS to be deep and maybe you get a LB on Rudolph, bring another S on Rudolph and there's nobody deep. Treadwell on the outside doesn't do much to create mismatches outside of Josh Robinson being the other teams CB2, or in heavy sets in the run game, where you get 3 TEs out on the field but maintain (hopefully) a two WR set. Other than 2TE sets with Treadwell wide, I think you create a lot more possibilities with him in the slot.[/quote]

Great post......I really like your thoughts on how to use Treadwell.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:43 am
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Post Re: Try and be Positive.....
autobon7 wrote:
fiestavike wrote:

Chucking the ball up looking for a high point reception is only consistently effective if you draw a mismatch. Otherwise its a pretty low percentage play. I'm not sure how well Treadwell's skill set is going to match up, but I feel like his best chance to contribute might be in the slot. His excellent run blocking could make him a kind of hybrid TE, providing a mismatch in the run game. Slot corners provide a height mismatch, maybe they bring a CB2 into the slot out of position, maybe they play a S on him and open up a deep shot for Diggs or Thielen, force the FS to be deep and maybe you get a LB on Rudolph, bring another S on Rudolph and there's nobody deep. Treadwell on the outside doesn't do much to create mismatches outside of Josh Robinson being the other teams CB2, or in heavy sets in the run game, where you get 3 TEs out on the field but maintain (hopefully) a two WR set. Other than 2TE sets with Treadwell wide, I think you create a lot more possibilities with him in the slot.


Great post......I really like your thoughts on how to use Treadwell.


Thanks!


Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:48 am
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