Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 37384
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Mothman » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:09 pm

Image
0 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 11269
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by S197 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:42 pm

Mothman wrote:Landon, I don't know what to tell you. I don't have the time or inclination to spend hours digging up past discussions just to prove they occurred. If you check last year's draft thread you will find that I wanted them to draft Whitehair and that I wanted them to draft o-linemen. That wasn't the only place I expressed that but I know I expressed it there.

I've tried hard to articulate a clear point of view on pretty much all of this over the past few years but it rarely seems to make even the slightest dent. To say that's discouraging would be an understatement. :(
I remember. You also wanted AJ Cann (I think that was his name) in a previous draft. I recall the talk on Whitehair, including during the live draft thread. You've been an advocate for beefing up the O-line for a long time, no denying it.

What I'm trying to say (and not specifically targeting you) is people make it sound as if everyone in the world except Rick was aware this was going to happen. But in fact, it was a combination of unforeseeable events and admittedly neglect. As I mentioned, the very same scenario could have played out at WR, or DT, or several other situations. The fact that it didn't is pure luck. We discussed a ton of players on this forum, but at no time did I ever recall someone advocating going all o-line, which is really the only scenario where the Vikings would have been prepared for what happened. Taking a T or G, or even both, would have still led us to nearly the same spot.

It's not a black swan event because one or two bad things happened. It's a black swan event because everything that could go wrong, just about went wrong. And I just don't think you can have a contingency for that.
0 x

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 37384
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Mothman » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:20 am

S197 wrote:I remember. You also wanted AJ Cann (I think that was his name) in a previous draft. I recall the talk on Whitehair, including during the live draft thread. You've been an advocate for beefing up the O-line for a long time, no denying it.
Thanks and you're correct about Cann. :)
What I'm trying to say (and not specifically targeting you) is people make it sound as if everyone in the world except Rick was aware this was going to happen. But in fact, it was a combination of unforeseeable events and admittedly neglect. As I mentioned, the very same scenario could have played out at WR, or DT, or several other situations. The fact that it didn't is pure luck. We discussed a ton of players on this forum, but at no time did I ever recall someone advocating going all o-line, which is really the only scenario where the Vikings would have been prepared for what happened. Taking a T or G, or even both, would have still led us to nearly the same spot.

It's not a black swan event because one or two bad things happened. It's a black swan event because everything that could go wrong, just about went wrong. And I just don't think you can have a contingency for that.
Perhaps not but better decisions could have mitigated the damage. Neglect, by definition, implies responsibility and with that comes culpability, meaning Spielman shouldn't get a pass just because some bad luck was also involved. As I wrote in the very first post in this thread, management played a role in what happened last year.

Maybe that brings this thread full circle?
0 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3472
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by fiestavike » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:35 am

S197 wrote:
The black swan event isn't the individual potential for problem, it's that it collectively all came to fruition. You can't say A was irrelevant, B was a tough loss, C was a freak accident, but we still should have prepared for E,F,G,and H. If you're saying that scenario was widely discussed on this forum then I'd love to see it.

Sure we had discussion on drafting an O-lineman. Mostly a guard if I recall correctly, but I'm sure tackle was in there. But was it more than the talk of drafting Josh Doctson or Will Fuller? Myles Jack or Jaylon Smith? Like I told someone else, if you were pounding the table to draft two tackles, a guard, and a center, show me. I'll give credit where credit is due, I just don't recall that discuss nor do I think it ever happened.

It's easy to play the hindsight game. Lets say we grabbed a guy like Jack Conklin. He went way before the Vikings pick, but for hypothetical sake, lets say we did. What if Diggs went down? He's known to have injury issues too. It would have been, "Spielman is such an idiot! Who goes into a season with Diggs, an UDFA in Thielen, and a non-producer like Johnson! Why didn't he draft a #1 receiver?"

It works all over the field. Linval, Shariff, and Tom Johnson all have injury history. What if they all went down? Same deal. There's only so much you can plan for. Losing the vast majority of your offense isn't one of them. That's not me giving Spielman a pass on everything, just this particular instance.

I know for sure that Moth and myself were wanting to address offensive line (and have been for some time). I proposed trading up to grab one of the top tackles but I wasn't a big fan of using our first pick on spriggs or ifedi, who I thought would be a huge reach. Jim, as I recall, was much more favorable to Spriggs and Ifedi and would have been happy using our first on either one.

The 'hindsight' argument is just wrong. There were several of us whose primary concern was OL.
0 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3472
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by fiestavike » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:52 am

Mothman wrote: Perhaps not but better decisions could have mitigated the damage. Neglect, by definition, implies responsibility and with that comes culpability, meaning Spielman shouldn't get a pass just because some bad luck was also involved. As I wrote in the very first post in this thread, management played a role in what happened last year.
I would look at it from the other perspective as well, the team finished 8-8 despite the "black swan" events, which is also a credit to the depth and calibur of roster.

Going into the draft last season, there were not that many holes to fill. The talk was that they wouldn't have room on the roster for a full slate of 10 picks. They drafted players at positions where there wasn't an immediate need. The big thing they really got wrong was the way they addressed the OL in free agency before the draft.

Still, before Zimmer arrived there were 16 critical positions without a viable starting option (QB, LT, LG, C, RG, TE2, WR1, WR2, WR3, S, CB, NCB, WLB, MLB, SSLB, DT). Going into this year there are probably 5-6 (WR1, TE2, G, C, WLB, DT). There is also more depth at various positions, enough so that the answer to some of those positions could realistically be on the roster. In a 3 year span of working together, that's a pretty huge leap of improvement.

That said, they haven't done well on the OL, and it was terrible planning to hire Norv Turner, draft a QB, and not prioritize the OL. I think they just bit off more than they could chew unless they were willing to be a lot more patient (which they weren't).
0 x

User avatar
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 5312
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:49 am

fiestavike wrote: I would look at it from the other perspective as well, the team finished 8-8 despite the "black swan" events, which is also a credit to the depth and calibur of roster.

Going into the draft last season, there were not that many holes to fill. The talk was that they wouldn't have room on the roster for a full slate of 10 picks. They drafted players at positions where there wasn't an immediate need. The big thing they really got wrong was the way they addressed the OL in free agency before the draft.

Still, before Zimmer arrived there were 16 critical positions without a viable starting option (QB, LT, LG, C, RG, TE2, WR1, WR2, WR3, S, CB, NCB, WLB, MLB, SSLB, DT). Going into this year there are probably 5-6 (WR1, TE2, G, C, WLB, DT). There is also more depth at various positions, enough so that the answer to some of those positions could realistically be on the roster. In a 3 year span of working together, that's a pretty huge leap of improvement.

That said, they haven't done well on the OL, and it was terrible planning to hire Norv Turner, draft a QB, and not prioritize the OL. I think they just bit off more than they could chew unless they were willing to be a lot more patient (which they weren't).
Why did you list Center as a need this year?? For two years in a row now we've had a top 10 center in the NFL. I would substitute that for RB
0 x
Image

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3472
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by fiestavike » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:15 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Why did you list Center as a need this year?? For two years in a row now we've had a top 10 center in the NFL. I would substitute that for RB
That's fair, mainly because looking out a year Berger won't be there, and I haven't heard 100 percent that he has decided not to retire yet. I think they've done enough to address RB that they have a legitimate starter there, but there is certainly room for improvement.

Anyway, that's part of the reason I said 5-6 instead of 6. A couple of those positions we might already have a guy on the roster.
0 x

User avatar
chicagopurple
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by chicagopurple » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:00 am

there was nothing unavoidable about the OL mess. Spielman and his scouts drafted some truly crappy talent at OL- Clemmings being his poster child. Kalil has been a long slow train wreck that Spielman is too stubborn to admit. He should have been long gone many seasons ago.
Beyond bringing in poor players he has refused to move on and replace some of these goons.
0 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3472
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by fiestavike » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:41 am

chicagopurple wrote:there was nothing unavoidable about the OL mess.
That's true. Its just not the whole story with regard to Spielman.
0 x

User avatar
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 5312
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:08 pm

chicagopurple wrote:there was nothing unavoidable about the OL mess. Spielman and his scouts drafted some truly crappy talent at OL- Clemmings being his poster child. Kalil has been a long slow train wreck that Spielman is too stubborn to admit. He should have been long gone many seasons ago.
Beyond bringing in poor players he has refused to move on and replace some of these goons.
You can't really blame him for Kalil. Matt Kalil became his own problem. Kalil unseated Tyron Smith at LT he was so good at USC. And then made the pro bowl his rookie year. You can sit there and say "that was a bad pick". It wasn't. Rick Spielman can't control a guys play and injuries.
0 x
Image

User avatar
chicagopurple
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by chicagopurple » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:24 pm

I think the problem with Kalil is that hey held on to him way too long. Its been years since he offered any glimmer of being anything but a liability but he stayed around like a bad penny. As an initial pick he was reasonable but a few years in he was clearly a liability but Spielman stuck with him for no good reason. He needed to do his job and find more talent and he didnt, he just spun his wheels.
0 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3472
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by fiestavike » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:35 pm

chicagopurple wrote:I think the problem with Kalil is that hey held on to him way too long. Its been years since he offered any glimmer of being anything but a liability but he stayed around like a bad penny. As an initial pick he was reasonable but a few years in he was clearly a liability but Spielman stuck with him for no good reason. He needed to do his job and find more talent and he didnt, he just spun his wheels.
Well said. This is a very fair criticism IMO.
0 x

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 37384
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Mothman » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:05 pm

fiestavike wrote: I would look at it from the other perspective as well, the team finished 8-8 despite the "black swan" events, which is also a credit to the depth and calibur of roster.
Well, the point is management plays a significant role in where they are as a team, in both a positive and negative sense.
Going into the draft last season, there were not that many holes to fill. The talk was that they wouldn't have room on the roster for a full slate of 10 picks. They drafted players at positions where there wasn't an immediate need. The big thing they really got wrong was the way they addressed the OL in free agency before the draft.
It was certainly the biggest. I felt (and still believe) they needed to take an aggressive approach to improving the Ol in both free agency and the draft. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.
0 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 11269
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by S197 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:09 pm

Mothman wrote:Maybe that brings this thread full circle?
:thumbsup:
0 x

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 37384
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Mothman » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:13 pm

S197 wrote: :thumbsup:
:banana:
0 x

Locked