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 Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system 
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
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Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:09 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
Mothman wrote:
Landon, I don't know what to tell you. I don't have the time or inclination to spend hours digging up past discussions just to prove they occurred. If you check last year's draft thread you will find that I wanted them to draft Whitehair and that I wanted them to draft o-linemen. That wasn't the only place I expressed that but I know I expressed it there.

I've tried hard to articulate a clear point of view on pretty much all of this over the past few years but it rarely seems to make even the slightest dent. To say that's discouraging would be an understatement. :(


I remember. You also wanted AJ Cann (I think that was his name) in a previous draft. I recall the talk on Whitehair, including during the live draft thread. You've been an advocate for beefing up the O-line for a long time, no denying it.

What I'm trying to say (and not specifically targeting you) is people make it sound as if everyone in the world except Rick was aware this was going to happen. But in fact, it was a combination of unforeseeable events and admittedly neglect. As I mentioned, the very same scenario could have played out at WR, or DT, or several other situations. The fact that it didn't is pure luck. We discussed a ton of players on this forum, but at no time did I ever recall someone advocating going all o-line, which is really the only scenario where the Vikings would have been prepared for what happened. Taking a T or G, or even both, would have still led us to nearly the same spot.

It's not a black swan event because one or two bad things happened. It's a black swan event because everything that could go wrong, just about went wrong. And I just don't think you can have a contingency for that.


Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:42 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
S197 wrote:
I remember. You also wanted AJ Cann (I think that was his name) in a previous draft. I recall the talk on Whitehair, including during the live draft thread. You've been an advocate for beefing up the O-line for a long time, no denying it.


Thanks and you're correct about Cann. :)

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What I'm trying to say (and not specifically targeting you) is people make it sound as if everyone in the world except Rick was aware this was going to happen. But in fact, it was a combination of unforeseeable events and admittedly neglect. As I mentioned, the very same scenario could have played out at WR, or DT, or several other situations. The fact that it didn't is pure luck. We discussed a ton of players on this forum, but at no time did I ever recall someone advocating going all o-line, which is really the only scenario where the Vikings would have been prepared for what happened. Taking a T or G, or even both, would have still led us to nearly the same spot.

It's not a black swan event because one or two bad things happened. It's a black swan event because everything that could go wrong, just about went wrong. And I just don't think you can have a contingency for that.


Perhaps not but better decisions could have mitigated the damage. Neglect, by definition, implies responsibility and with that comes culpability, meaning Spielman shouldn't get a pass just because some bad luck was also involved. As I wrote in the very first post in this thread, management played a role in what happened last year.

Maybe that brings this thread full circle?


Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:20 am
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
S197 wrote:

The black swan event isn't the individual potential for problem, it's that it collectively all came to fruition. You can't say A was irrelevant, B was a tough loss, C was a freak accident, but we still should have prepared for E,F,G,and H. If you're saying that scenario was widely discussed on this forum then I'd love to see it.

Sure we had discussion on drafting an O-lineman. Mostly a guard if I recall correctly, but I'm sure tackle was in there. But was it more than the talk of drafting Josh Doctson or Will Fuller? Myles Jack or Jaylon Smith? Like I told someone else, if you were pounding the table to draft two tackles, a guard, and a center, show me. I'll give credit where credit is due, I just don't recall that discuss nor do I think it ever happened.

It's easy to play the hindsight game. Lets say we grabbed a guy like Jack Conklin. He went way before the Vikings pick, but for hypothetical sake, lets say we did. What if Diggs went down? He's known to have injury issues too. It would have been, "Spielman is such an idiot! Who goes into a season with Diggs, an UDFA in Thielen, and a non-producer like Johnson! Why didn't he draft a #1 receiver?"

It works all over the field. Linval, Shariff, and Tom Johnson all have injury history. What if they all went down? Same deal. There's only so much you can plan for. Losing the vast majority of your offense isn't one of them. That's not me giving Spielman a pass on everything, just this particular instance.



I know for sure that Moth and myself were wanting to address offensive line (and have been for some time). I proposed trading up to grab one of the top tackles but I wasn't a big fan of using our first pick on spriggs or ifedi, who I thought would be a huge reach. Jim, as I recall, was much more favorable to Spriggs and Ifedi and would have been happy using our first on either one.

The 'hindsight' argument is just wrong. There were several of us whose primary concern was OL.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:35 am
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
Mothman wrote:
Perhaps not but better decisions could have mitigated the damage. Neglect, by definition, implies responsibility and with that comes culpability, meaning Spielman shouldn't get a pass just because some bad luck was also involved. As I wrote in the very first post in this thread, management played a role in what happened last year.



I would look at it from the other perspective as well, the team finished 8-8 despite the "black swan" events, which is also a credit to the depth and calibur of roster.

Going into the draft last season, there were not that many holes to fill. The talk was that they wouldn't have room on the roster for a full slate of 10 picks. They drafted players at positions where there wasn't an immediate need. The big thing they really got wrong was the way they addressed the OL in free agency before the draft.

Still, before Zimmer arrived there were 16 critical positions without a viable starting option (QB, LT, LG, C, RG, TE2, WR1, WR2, WR3, S, CB, NCB, WLB, MLB, SSLB, DT). Going into this year there are probably 5-6 (WR1, TE2, G, C, WLB, DT). There is also more depth at various positions, enough so that the answer to some of those positions could realistically be on the roster. In a 3 year span of working together, that's a pretty huge leap of improvement.

That said, they haven't done well on the OL, and it was terrible planning to hire Norv Turner, draft a QB, and not prioritize the OL. I think they just bit off more than they could chew unless they were willing to be a lot more patient (which they weren't).


Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:52 am
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
fiestavike wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Perhaps not but better decisions could have mitigated the damage. Neglect, by definition, implies responsibility and with that comes culpability, meaning Spielman shouldn't get a pass just because some bad luck was also involved. As I wrote in the very first post in this thread, management played a role in what happened last year.



I would look at it from the other perspective as well, the team finished 8-8 despite the "black swan" events, which is also a credit to the depth and calibur of roster.

Going into the draft last season, there were not that many holes to fill. The talk was that they wouldn't have room on the roster for a full slate of 10 picks. They drafted players at positions where there wasn't an immediate need. The big thing they really got wrong was the way they addressed the OL in free agency before the draft.

Still, before Zimmer arrived there were 16 critical positions without a viable starting option (QB, LT, LG, C, RG, TE2, WR1, WR2, WR3, S, CB, NCB, WLB, MLB, SSLB, DT). Going into this year there are probably 5-6 (WR1, TE2, G, C, WLB, DT). There is also more depth at various positions, enough so that the answer to some of those positions could realistically be on the roster. In a 3 year span of working together, that's a pretty huge leap of improvement.

That said, they haven't done well on the OL, and it was terrible planning to hire Norv Turner, draft a QB, and not prioritize the OL. I think they just bit off more than they could chew unless they were willing to be a lot more patient (which they weren't).


Why did you list Center as a need this year?? For two years in a row now we've had a top 10 center in the NFL. I would substitute that for RB

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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Perhaps not but better decisions could have mitigated the damage. Neglect, by definition, implies responsibility and with that comes culpability, meaning Spielman shouldn't get a pass just because some bad luck was also involved. As I wrote in the very first post in this thread, management played a role in what happened last year.



I would look at it from the other perspective as well, the team finished 8-8 despite the "black swan" events, which is also a credit to the depth and calibur of roster.

Going into the draft last season, there were not that many holes to fill. The talk was that they wouldn't have room on the roster for a full slate of 10 picks. They drafted players at positions where there wasn't an immediate need. The big thing they really got wrong was the way they addressed the OL in free agency before the draft.

Still, before Zimmer arrived there were 16 critical positions without a viable starting option (QB, LT, LG, C, RG, TE2, WR1, WR2, WR3, S, CB, NCB, WLB, MLB, SSLB, DT). Going into this year there are probably 5-6 (WR1, TE2, G, C, WLB, DT). There is also more depth at various positions, enough so that the answer to some of those positions could realistically be on the roster. In a 3 year span of working together, that's a pretty huge leap of improvement.

That said, they haven't done well on the OL, and it was terrible planning to hire Norv Turner, draft a QB, and not prioritize the OL. I think they just bit off more than they could chew unless they were willing to be a lot more patient (which they weren't).


Why did you list Center as a need this year?? For two years in a row now we've had a top 10 center in the NFL. I would substitute that for RB


That's fair, mainly because looking out a year Berger won't be there, and I haven't heard 100 percent that he has decided not to retire yet. I think they've done enough to address RB that they have a legitimate starter there, but there is certainly room for improvement.

Anyway, that's part of the reason I said 5-6 instead of 6. A couple of those positions we might already have a guy on the roster.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:15 am
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
there was nothing unavoidable about the OL mess. Spielman and his scouts drafted some truly crappy talent at OL- Clemmings being his poster child. Kalil has been a long slow train wreck that Spielman is too stubborn to admit. He should have been long gone many seasons ago.
Beyond bringing in poor players he has refused to move on and replace some of these goons.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:00 am
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
chicagopurple wrote:
there was nothing unavoidable about the OL mess.


That's true. Its just not the whole story with regard to Spielman.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:41 am
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
chicagopurple wrote:
there was nothing unavoidable about the OL mess. Spielman and his scouts drafted some truly crappy talent at OL- Clemmings being his poster child. Kalil has been a long slow train wreck that Spielman is too stubborn to admit. He should have been long gone many seasons ago.
Beyond bringing in poor players he has refused to move on and replace some of these goons.


You can't really blame him for Kalil. Matt Kalil became his own problem. Kalil unseated Tyron Smith at LT he was so good at USC. And then made the pro bowl his rookie year. You can sit there and say "that was a bad pick". It wasn't. Rick Spielman can't control a guys play and injuries.

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Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:08 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
I think the problem with Kalil is that hey held on to him way too long. Its been years since he offered any glimmer of being anything but a liability but he stayed around like a bad penny. As an initial pick he was reasonable but a few years in he was clearly a liability but Spielman stuck with him for no good reason. He needed to do his job and find more talent and he didnt, he just spun his wheels.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:24 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
chicagopurple wrote:
I think the problem with Kalil is that hey held on to him way too long. Its been years since he offered any glimmer of being anything but a liability but he stayed around like a bad penny. As an initial pick he was reasonable but a few years in he was clearly a liability but Spielman stuck with him for no good reason. He needed to do his job and find more talent and he didnt, he just spun his wheels.


Well said. This is a very fair criticism IMO.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:35 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
fiestavike wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Perhaps not but better decisions could have mitigated the damage. Neglect, by definition, implies responsibility and with that comes culpability, meaning Spielman shouldn't get a pass just because some bad luck was also involved. As I wrote in the very first post in this thread, management played a role in what happened last year.


I would look at it from the other perspective as well, the team finished 8-8 despite the "black swan" events, which is also a credit to the depth and calibur of roster.


Well, the point is management plays a significant role in where they are as a team, in both a positive and negative sense.

Quote:
Going into the draft last season, there were not that many holes to fill. The talk was that they wouldn't have room on the roster for a full slate of 10 picks. They drafted players at positions where there wasn't an immediate need. The big thing they really got wrong was the way they addressed the OL in free agency before the draft.


It was certainly the biggest. I felt (and still believe) they needed to take an aggressive approach to improving the Ol in both free agency and the draft. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:05 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
Mothman wrote:
Maybe that brings this thread full circle?


:thumbsup:


Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:09 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
S197 wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Maybe that brings this thread full circle?


:thumbsup:


:banana:


Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:13 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
fiestavike wrote:
S197 wrote:

The black swan event isn't the individual potential for problem, it's that it collectively all came to fruition. You can't say A was irrelevant, B was a tough loss, C was a freak accident, but we still should have prepared for E,F,G,and H. If you're saying that scenario was widely discussed on this forum then I'd love to see it.

Sure we had discussion on drafting an O-lineman. Mostly a guard if I recall correctly, but I'm sure tackle was in there. But was it more than the talk of drafting Josh Doctson or Will Fuller? Myles Jack or Jaylon Smith? Like I told someone else, if you were pounding the table to draft two tackles, a guard, and a center, show me. I'll give credit where credit is due, I just don't recall that discuss nor do I think it ever happened.

It's easy to play the hindsight game. Lets say we grabbed a guy like Jack Conklin. He went way before the Vikings pick, but for hypothetical sake, lets say we did. What if Diggs went down? He's known to have injury issues too. It would have been, "Spielman is such an idiot! Who goes into a season with Diggs, an UDFA in Thielen, and a non-producer like Johnson! Why didn't he draft a #1 receiver?"

It works all over the field. Linval, Shariff, and Tom Johnson all have injury history. What if they all went down? Same deal. There's only so much you can plan for. Losing the vast majority of your offense isn't one of them. That's not me giving Spielman a pass on everything, just this particular instance.



I know for sure that Moth and myself were wanting to address offensive line (and have been for some time). I proposed trading up to grab one of the top tackles but I wasn't a big fan of using our first pick on spriggs or ifedi, who I thought would be a huge reach. Jim, as I recall, was much more favorable to Spriggs and Ifedi and would have been happy using our first on either one.

The 'hindsight' argument is just wrong. There were several of us whose primary concern was OL.


As I mentioned, I'm not arguing people wanted to draft linemen early, there's no disputing that. What is hindsight is taking what happened, which is an extraordinary event and projecting that it was a known event.

Let me give you an example. Was WR not a primary concern as well? Lets remember we had Diggs and really that was it. Thielen hadn't had his big season yet and Patterson was riding the pine. So was Wright. CJ had one good year of production. Diggs also has a history of staying healthy. Had Diggs gone down wouldn't the pitchforks have come out for relying on a pair of undrafted free agents and a glorified kick returner? Look at this poll, the vast majority of people said Will Fuller would have ruined their night.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29239&view=viewpoll

Anyone want Fuller now? I know I do. Or this one, who do you want in the 1st? Majority picked Doctson.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29240

Same with DT. A lot of people talked about Andrew Billings amongst others. Had Linval, Floyd, and Johnson (all have injury history) gone down, the pitchforks come out again.

That's what I mean by hindsight. There's no position on the football field where you can lose 60% of your starters and have the depth to carry on like normal. Again, I'm in the camp the line should have been a bigger focus but lets not forget there's a tradeoff with every pick. You plug the line with x, and you potentially lose a Kendricks, Harrison, Hunter, etc.

I'm not giving Spielman a free pas here, all I'm saying is lets be a little objective. What happened to the Vikings line last year is something no one could have predicted. It could have been mitigated by better management as Jim mentioned, but for all intents and purposes, still a black swan.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:32 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
S197 wrote:
As I mentioned, I'm not arguing people wanted to draft linemen early, there's no disputing that. What is hindsight is taking what happened, which is an extraordinary event and projecting that it was a known event.


But it wasn't a singular event at all, just a series of events with a cumulative impact. It's not like the players were lost when their plane disappeared in the Andes for 3 months. ;)

What's frustrating about being told these criticisms are just hindsight is the word implies an understanding that only occurred in the wake of events and that's simply not the case here. Foresight isn't just predicting exactly what will happen. It's also about anticipating potential issues and taking (or in this case, recommending) appropriate steps to avoid them.

Quote:
Again, I'm in the camp the line should have been a bigger focus but lets not forget there's a tradeoff with every pick. You plug the line with x, and you potentially lose a Kendricks, Harrison, Hunter, etc.


I've never forgotten it and I've said all along, it would have been worth missing out on some of those players to make the OL a strength because good blocking is fundamental to winning. I still believe the game is won and lost primarily at the line of scrimmage. The OL is the engine that drives an offense. If it's weak, that offense can't do anything consistently well.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:34 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
all season long I watched the Cowboy (ugh) games and Pats, just to see GOOD football being played. The thing that stood out the most to me was the Cowboys offensive line play. They are so solid and well coached that its a joy to watch....they control the damn game. They make average players much better. We are the polar opposite. Freak injuries did not define our sorry excuse for an OL....poor talent did. Perhaps poor coaching, but until the OL coach is given real NFL grade talent, no one can judge him.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:52 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
chicagopurple wrote:
all season long I watched the Cowboy (ugh) games and Pats, just to see GOOD football being played. The thing that stood out the most to me was the Cowboys offensive line play. They are so solid and well coached that its a joy to watch....they control the damn game. They make average players much better. We are the polar opposite. Freak injuries did not define our sorry excuse for an OL....poor talent did. Perhaps poor coaching, but until the OL coach is given real NFL grade talent, no one can judge him.


They don't make average players better. They are just all good. Except Doug Free who was a liability. But yeah they had a good offense. Not a great defense.

I'm not sure why everyone fansticizes over the cowboys. They ended up being a flop this year given how good they were during the regular season. I really don't think they are a much better team than we are and lost Leary and Free so really they have half of a good OL right now.

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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
chicagopurple wrote:
I think the problem with Kalil is that hey held on to him way too long. Its been years since he offered any glimmer of being anything but a liability but he stayed around like a bad penny. As an initial pick he was reasonable but a few years in he was clearly a liability but Spielman stuck with him for no good reason. He needed to do his job and find more talent and he didnt, he just spun his wheels.


I disagree. You have to put yourself in Spielmans shoes. Kalil was an elite college LT and had a great rookie year.Then nagging injuries hit but didn't really keep him out until this year. From what he showed in college and his rookie year, you don't just get rid of him after a year or two. That's not a way to go by things. No less if we cut him it results in dead money. And could bite us in the butt if he went somewhere and performed well. He was a high pick at a prime position. You have to see if he can get back to form

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Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:39 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
He never HAD good form as a Pro...he was a penalty machine, producing penalties at the worst possible moment, now he is also an injury prone failure....he is a dead spot on the roster....he is done...a failure..time to move on.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:13 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
chicagopurple wrote:
He never HAD good form as a Pro...he was a penalty machine, producing penalties at the worst possible moment, now he is also an injury prone failure....he is a dead spot on the roster....he is done...a failure..time to move on.


No need to go on a rant. He had a +12.1 rating per PFF his rookie year and made the pro bowl. That's good. No matter what you think his "form" is, he was good his rookie year. Are we really going to blame Rick Spielman for drafting the best LT in college football that year? Is that a bad thing to draft or am I missing something? Like I said, Matt Kalil turned into his own problem. So no matter what you think about him, it was a good pick at the time and you can't fault Spielman for making the move. No questions about it

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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
chicagopurple wrote:
He never HAD good form as a Pro...he was a penalty machine, producing penalties at the worst possible moment, now he is also an injury prone failure....he is a dead spot on the roster....he is done...a failure..time to move on.


No need to go on a rant. He had a +12.1 rating per PFF his rookie year and made the pro bowl. That's good. No matter what you think his "form" is, he was good his rookie year. Are we really going to blame Rick Spielman for drafting the best LT in college football that year? Is that a bad thing to draft or am I missing something? Like I said, Matt Kalil turned into his own problem. So no matter what you think about him, it was a good pick at the time and you can't fault Spielman for making the move. No questions about it


He just explained a few posts up that he thought the pick was reasonable but he thinks the problem is they held onto Kalil too long. In other words, he's not faulting Spielman for the pick. He's faulting him for sticking with Kalil for 5 years.

Once Kalil "turned into his own problem", he was still Spielman's problem. A GM's responsibility doesn't stop once a pick gets made on draft day. He's responsible for the roster, every year.


Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:14 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
Mothman wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
chicagopurple wrote:
He never HAD good form as a Pro...he was a penalty machine, producing penalties at the worst possible moment, now he is also an injury prone failure....he is a dead spot on the roster....he is done...a failure..time to move on.


No need to go on a rant. He had a +12.1 rating per PFF his rookie year and made the pro bowl. That's good. No matter what you think his "form" is, he was good his rookie year. Are we really going to blame Rick Spielman for drafting the best LT in college football that year? Is that a bad thing to draft or am I missing something? Like I said, Matt Kalil turned into his own problem. So no matter what you think about him, it was a good pick at the time and you can't fault Spielman for making the move. No questions about it


He just explained a few posts up that he thought the pick was reasonable but he thinks the problem is they held onto Kalil too long. In other words, he's not faulting Spielman for the pick. He's faulting him for sticking with Kalil for 5 years.

Once Kalil "turned into his own problem", he was still Spielman's problem. A GM's responsibility doesn't stop once a pick gets made on draft day. He's responsible for the roster, every year.


I know what he's saying and again, I don't agree. It's a big dead money hit if you cut him. And i don't think it's very smart to cut a top 5 pick just because of nagging injuries, it's not like he had a career threatening injury. Teddy just about lost his leg and there's a question if we should keep him or not. Kalil never missed a game up until this year but was just hampered by nagging injures. It's not like the guy was a dud from the start. So you know what kind of talent he has because he showed it. So you hold onto him in hopes of him recovering from those injuries. It didnt hurt us to keep him. But hurt us dead money wise to cut him. When do you ever see teams cut top picks within their rookie contract due to something else outside of a career threatening injury?? The Jaguars held onto Joekel, the Cowboys held onto Claiborne, the Dolphins held onto Dion Jordan (until recently after multiple mess ups), the Rams held onto Greg Robinson, etc. You don't just cut these guys because theres some bumps in the road. One, it's not logical because of the dead money hit and two, you would look like the biggest idiot on earth if you cut a guy because of a nagging injury and he goes somewhere else and performs well. He did what every other team in the NFL does, holds onto their top pick throughout their rookie contract. So no, I don't think he held onto him too long. You're already paying him, so you might as well see if he can get over those injuries. You have nothing to lose. I understand his hate for Kalil, but you can't let that get in the way of logical decision making.

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Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:30 pm
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
CbusVikesFan wrote:
These half dozen pages of debate have proven that people are different and have varying opinions. I don't think any of us are wrong or right. Our perceptions are various and that is a good thing. Think about it.


I have to say, I agree with Jim's post 100%.

I personally think Rick does an average job, at best, when he has so much authority in the Vikings Org. and basically unlimited source of cash from the Wilf's, compared to other owners we have. And yet Rick has shown no progression at all, except get a name for himself for getting a lot of draft picks. And picking athletic guys instead of guys that really know their position.

I feel the same for Rick as I do Mckinnon, in a way. He just barely gets the job done. I really have a feeling Rick will be replaced soon (which means another rebuilding process). The Wilf's dont know football, but someone in the Vikes camp must. We really should be an almost annual playoff team, and win a few playoffs now, with Rick at the helm.


Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:34 am
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
I know what he's saying and again, I don't agree.


Okay. I'm just trying to keep the discussion from going in more circles. :)

Quote:
It's a big dead money hit if you cut him. And i don't think it's very smart to cut a top 5 pick just because of nagging injuries, it's not like he had a career threatening injury. Teddy just about lost his leg and there's a question if we should keep him or not. Kalil never missed a game up until this year but was just hampered by nagging injures. It's not like the guy was a dud from the start. So you know what kind of talent he has because he showed it. So you hold onto him in hopes of him recovering from those injuries. It didnt hurt us to keep him. But hurt us dead money wise to cut him. When do you ever see teams cut top picks within their rookie contract due to something else outside of a career threatening injury??


It's not unheard of but I certainly see your point.

I might be mistaken but I think Kalil's signing bonus was paid in his rookie year and if that's true, cutting him in any subsequent season wouldn't have cost the team more than $1.5-$3 million in dead cap money. However, I actually agree with you that it didn't hurt to keep him. I think the point you're making about sticking with a high pick who's performed well at times and seeing if he can get past a series of nagging injuries and emerge as a healthy, reliable player makes sense. That said, Kalil's inability to remain healthy and play consistently did hurt and I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that they could have brought in some competition or made an effort to find an upgrade (or at least a quality backup) by the time he reached his 5th season.

It's not a black and white issue, especially since i think they had bigger problems elsewhere on the line.


Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:42 am
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
If you are really commited to a run dominated offense (and we CLEARLY were for the last decade), and you have an OL liablility who had one good year, cant stop producing penalties and is a crappy inside blocker....you are shooting your team in the foot by retaining him. Percy, you summed up Spielmans chronic poor actions on this issue with your statement that you would "look like a fool" if you cut him. THAT is all I think Spielman was focused on, that letting go of the failed dream of a competent player named Kalil suddenly emerging would admit to the world that Spielman had failed again. So, we have had to see him trot him out annually and hurt the team for at least 4 years AND delay any improvement at that spot.


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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
chicagopurple wrote:
If you are really commited to a run dominated offense (and we CLEARLY were for the last decade), and you have an OL liablility who had one good year, cant stop producing penalties and is a crappy inside blocker....you are shooting your team in the foot by retaining him. Percy, you summed up Spielmans chronic poor actions on this issue with your statement that you would "look like a fool" if you cut him. THAT is all I think Spielman was focused on, that letting go of the failed dream of a competent player named Kalil suddenly emerging would admit to the world that Spielman had failed again. So, we have had to see him trot him out annually and hurt the team for at least 4 years AND delay any improvement at that spot.


You're missing the point. Teams dont just let go of top picks because of a nagging injury or that they had a lot of penalties. Regardless of what you think, it just doesnt happen. Teams dont do it. So if you're going to criticize Spielman for holding onto Kalil you might as well criticize every other GM in the league as well.

It's not that "Spielman just didnt want to look like a fool". It's just the logical thing to do. Clearly, given the fact that a top pick hasnt been cut before his rookie contract expired in who knows how long. You're letting your "I hate Matt Kalil goggles" get in the way of what makes sense.

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Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:50 am
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
he had a 5 year rookie contracts? really?? I dont follow contracts like that...I had no idea....so he is really under paid I guess? That seems rather unlikely.


Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:03 am
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Post Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system
chicagopurple wrote:
he had a 5 year rookie contracts? really?? I dont follow contracts like that...I had no idea....so he is really under paid I guess? That seems rather unlikely.


Yes since the last CBA, any first round pick you draft comes with a 5th year option. So it's a 4 year deal with an option to hold onto the guy for a 5th year. We kept him all 5. Which it could've been 4 if we were in a position to draft an OT last year but there wasnt much left when it got to our pick

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