Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Mothman » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:37 pm

CbusVikesFan wrote:Spielman, Spielman, Spielman! Go to room and stay there! :rock:
:lol:

One thing that's struck me as Spielman has been discussed on off over the course of last season and this offseason is how many mitigating circumstances have been put forth to alleviate criticism. He's been with the Vikings almost 11 years but there seem to be at least one or two major reasons why we're supposed to dismiss each season when considering his job performance. For example:

2006: He was hired to replace Fran Foley after the draft. This is a particularly legitimate reason.

2007-2010: He was part of the Triangle of Authority with Childress and Brzezinski
2011: He was part of the Triangle of Authority with Frazier and Brzezinski; They began rebuilding. From this season forward, "rebuilding" gets applied to pretty much every season.
2012: It was his first year as GM. He didn't have the coach he wanted.
2013: Second year as GM. Still rebuilding. Didn't have his coach.
2014: Viewed as a reset/rebuilding year.
2015: The team was still rebuilding but they won the division and achieved a moral victory by getting in position to win a playoff game so this year, more than the others, seems to be viewed as a legitimate season for evaluation.
2016: Injuries! STILL rebuilding...
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by S197 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:03 pm

Mothman wrote:I agree that there's more to winning than building a roster but I don't think building a roster and building a team are quite the same thing and Spielman's in charge of football operations, not just building a roster.
I would say a GM is tasked with building a roster. The HC is charged with building a team.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by S197 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:14 pm

Mothman wrote: :lol:

One thing that's struck me as Spielman has been discussed on off over the course of last season and this offseason is how many mitigating circumstances have been put forth to alleviate criticism. He's been with the Vikings almost 11 years but there seem to be at least one or two major reasons why we're supposed to dismiss each season when considering his job performance. For example:

2006: He was hired to replace Fran Foley after the draft. This is a particularly legitimate reason.

2007-2010: He was part of the Triangle of Authority with Childress and Brzezinski
2011: He was part of the Triangle of Authority with Frazier and Brzezinski; They began rebuilding. From this season forward, "rebuilding" gets applied to pretty much every season.
2012: It was his first year as GM. He didn't have the coach he wanted.
2013: Second year as GM. Still rebuilding. Didn't have his coach.
2014: Viewed as a reset/rebuilding year.
2015: The team was still rebuilding but they won the division and achieved a moral victory by getting in position to win a playoff game so this year, more than the others, seems to be viewed as a legitimate season for evaluation.
2016: Injuries! STILL rebuilding...
It depends on how you look at it. You could say he rebuilt a defense that was 2nd to worst in the league to #3 over a span of 3 years. I think special teams, with the exception of Walsh, has been rather good over the last couple years. That's 2/3rds of your team that is "rebuilt." Patterson is a big loss but getting a kicker who can make PATs mitigates kickoff returns given the new rules.

As for the offense, I think they're average O-line play away from making this a good football team. This team has beat good teams. Won on the road. Won the North title. They went from terrible to beating Green Bay IN Lambeau to take the division over the course of two years. I don't consider this a rebuilding year at all, I think last year was extraordinary, and outside of what can only be described as a ridiculous amount of injuries, the trajectory is still upwards.

Rebuilding? Not in my book. But that's just me.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:31 pm

I think you missed Jim's point, Landon... He is saying how every season people come up with excuses for Spielman on why his teams don't perform well on the field.

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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Mothman » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:45 pm

S197 wrote: I would say a GM is tasked with building a roster. The HC is charged with building a team.
But the GM hires the coach and oversees the entire football operation, including the coach. The head coach obviously plays a very significant role but he's also part of the team and the overall direction the team takes, from which type of coach gets hired in the first place to the acquisition of personnel (and more) is determined by the GM. There's a clear hierarchy.

I understand your point: the coach is supposed to forge the roster into an effective team but the team is built by the GM.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Mothman » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:47 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:I think you missed Jim's point, Landon... He is saying how every season people come up with excuses for Spielman on why his teams don't perform well on the field.
yes... or excuses for why he can't be held accountable.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Laserman » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:30 pm

He sounds exactly Like every GM on a losing team, "we've got a core group of young talent and we're adding to it, Injuries, uncontrollable blah blah blah. You see head coaches and GMs of Winning teams talk like this
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Demi » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:29 pm

Mothman wrote: But the GM hires the coach and oversees the entire football operation, including the coach. The head coach obviously plays a very significant role but he's also part of the team and the overall direction the team takes, from which type of coach gets hired in the first place to the acquisition of personnel (and more) is determined by the GM. There's a clear hierarchy.

I understand your point: the coach is supposed to forge the roster into an effective team but the team is built by the GM.
Especially frustrating since Zimmer seems like a guy capable of running a defense if the GM and offensive coaching staff are in place. Which they aren't. And in a season or two the entire thing will be exploded again. With an owner who doesn't seem to have any idea what he's doing.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:29 pm

S197 wrote: It depends on how you look at it. You could say he rebuilt a defense that was 2nd to worst in the league to #3 over a span of 3 years. I think special teams, with the exception of Walsh, has been rather good over the last couple years. That's 2/3rds of your team that is "rebuilt." Patterson is a big loss but getting a kicker who can make PATs mitigates kickoff returns given the new rules.

As for the offense, I think they're average O-line play away from making this a good football team. This team has beat good teams. Won on the road. Won the North title. They went from terrible to beating Green Bay IN Lambeau to take the division over the course of two years. I don't consider this a rebuilding year at all, I think last year was extraordinary, and outside of what can only be described as a ridiculous amount of injuries, the trajectory is still upwards.

Rebuilding? Not in my book. But that's just me.
Excellent post. Well said. I'm not sure why this is considered a "rebuilding year". We have to "rebuild" the tackle spots, guard, RB and some depth along the team. When has that ever been considered having to "rebuild"? A team never stops building. We're addressing holes. Not rebuilding. There is a gigantic difference between the two. Rebuilding is when you're getting rid of most of your roster/finding guys to replace others on MOST of your roster. We are not even close to doing that this year. In turn, that's not rebuilding.

For example, Seattle needs basically an entire OL, could use better WRs, haven't found a RB since Lynch (Lacy is a big question mark), are on the verge of getting weaker at CB and are weak at the DT spot. Does that mean they are rebuilding?? No they have holes to fill. And quite frankly, we've done a better job filling our holes so far this offseason than Seattle has. On probably a worse line than ours, they signed only Luke Joekel, who isn't very good at all. Signed Lacy who is a mystery and signed a safety that is simply depth. We filled both tackle spots, signed a solid RB and will probably draft another, added a much better backup QB and provided depth along the DL. I don't hear anyone saying a team like Seattle is rebuilding. So why are fans saying we are "rebuilding"? We aren't. We have to fill holes. Just like every single team in the NFL does every year. And we have to fill much less than a lot of teams out there (aka, the teams that are rebuilding).

I swear the words "rebuilding" and "bust" are by far the most overused/out of context words used on here and outside of here by a long shot. When you look at what they ACTUALLY mean and how fans use them, it really leaves me scratching my head.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by CbusVikesFan » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:03 am

S197 wrote: I would say a GM is tasked with building a roster. The HC is charged with building a team.
The GM has to have a certain plan in place on how to build a winner. HC should be on the same page and/or his own plan if he gets carte Blanche to run the way he sees fit. Mostly who has the most experience, successfully. I don't think that it can be broken down in black or white. Everyone should hold themselves accountable for the success of the team. As the chain of command goes, so goes the team. Has to be good from top to bottom, front to back. From the janitor to the owners. The GM should get the most criticism, not too many positions above him a d he is most responsible for the team itself. The players report to the coach. The coach to the GM. Can't blame fhe players if the draft isn't up to winning standards. But you can blame the GM and HC.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Mothman » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:35 am

CbusVikesFan wrote:The GM has to have a certain plan in place on how to build a winner. HC should be on the same page and/or his own plan if he gets carte Blanche to run the way he sees fit. Mostly who has the most experience, successfully. I don't think that it can be broken down in black or white. Everyone should hold themselves accountable for the success of the team. As the chain of command goes, so goes the team. Has to be good from top to bottom, front to back. From the janitor to the owners. The GM should get the most criticism, not too many positions above him a d he is most responsible for the team itself. The players report to the coach. The coach to the GM. Can't blame fhe players if the draft isn't up to winning standards. But you can blame the GM and HC.
Well said. Your first sentence really gets to the heart of the matter. The GM has to have a plan for building a winner (and by "winner", I mean "championship team"). With the exception of ownership, everything begins there and the GM needs to hire a coach with whom he can work closely to realize his plan. Both have a great deal of responsibility but only one gets to choose the other.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by chicagopurple » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:11 am

I would say that a decade is long enough to evaluate the quality of a GMs "plan".

After a full decade with the huge benefit of having the best RB in the league we have nothing to show for it but a team in disarray. APs career was wasted. They never put a QB with him to make a complete offense except for a short rental of Farve.
The OL was neglected for years and now is a huge non-healing ulcer that will disrupt any chance of success until it is corrected.

Coaching staff has been suspect for 10 years. The GM chose the coaches.....its on him.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Mothman » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:52 am

chicagopurple wrote:I would say that a decade is long enough to evaluate the quality of a GMs "plan".

After a full decade with the huge benefit of having the best RB in the league we have nothing to show for it but a team in disarray. APs career was wasted. They never put a QB with him to make a complete offense except for a short rental of Farve.
The OL was neglected for years and now is a huge non-healing ulcer that will disrupt any chance of success until it is corrected.

Coaching staff has been suspect for 10 years. The GM chose the coaches.....its on him.
This is why it gets complicated because Spielman has only chosen one head coach: Zimmer. Childress was hired before Spielman. Frazier was promoted by the Wilfs.

Spielman has been GM since January of 2012. Before that, he was Vice President of Player Personnel, one third of the "Triangle of Authority" and the primary author of the Vikings drafts. I think a philosophy similar to we've seen from him as a GM was evident during those years and since he was still at least 1/3 of the primary decision-making structure within the organization, I still think he bears a great deal of responsibility for the team's successes and failures at that time, but I understand why others want to cut him a lot of slack for that period.

As you said, Peterson's career as a Viking was wasted and as far as I'm concerned, nobody is more responsible for that than Rick Spielman.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:01 am

chicagopurple wrote:I would say that a decade is long enough to evaluate the quality of a GMs "plan".

After a full decade with the huge benefit of having the best RB in the league we have nothing to show for it but a team in disarray. APs career was wasted. They never put a QB with him to make a complete offense except for a short rental of Farve.
The OL was neglected for years and now is a huge non-healing ulcer that will disrupt any chance of success until it is corrected.

Coaching staff has been suspect for 10 years. The GM chose the coaches.....its on him.
So I suppose it's Rick Spielman's fault that Adrian Peterson fumbled twice vs. New Orleans and once that recently led to Seattle's game winning drive. Maybe Adrian's career would look a little better if Adrian did was he was suppose to do and not put the ball on the ground in crucial moments. I'm not buying that it's Rick Spielman's fault that AP's career was "wasted". Adrian had his opportunities and failed when given them each time. So that argument can go both ways.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by chicagopurple » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:24 am

Yes , AP fumbled at the worst possible moments....Yes he was a crappy pass blocker....prolly not much of a father to group of kids he has scattered across the country.....

My point is that as good as his career was, it would have been epic if management had ever found a real QB to play along side him...He did what he did with every defense stacking the box against him because we had no real passing threat. Imagine if teams had to respect the pass during much of AP's career....We would have been devastating!

Its pretty inexcusable to have one of the Historic RBs in league history and never get him into one damn Super Bowl game.....

Kinda like the Bills and Jim Kelly....Oh wait, they made it to many Super Bowls....hmmmm what other super star was on a team that failed to ever reach a Super Bowl?
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