Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:The vast difference between my posts and the previous two or three really blows my mind.

If I were to boil my view down to it's essence it would be this:

If you get 2016 level of Defensive performace (or better), + Sam Bradford as good or better than last year + Average OL play = Playoff contender. Over simplified for sure, but is basically where I'm at.

I'm fine if people want to debate that, it is just my opinion. (Jim and I have gone back and fourth on it for the entire offeseason.) I'm just curious why people think that if the OL improves to average we are still a complete disaster? That logic completely escapes me.
It doesn't look to me like anybody is expecting a complete disaster. HardcoreVikesFan's post was about his frustration with the team's ongoing mediocrity. That's the source of my frustration too and it seems to be what bothers some of the other fans who have responded in this thread.
We went 8-8 last year with probably the worst NFL OL I've seen in 20 years as a serious fan. if that doesn't speak to the quality of the rest of the roster I'm really not sure what does? I do not understand the thought process that leads to a conclusion of "we are headed to a losing season" if that same OL gets better. Sometime I wonder if some of the posters on here turn off the game when the defense is on the field?

It also feels like a lot posters have a serious axe to grind with Spielman and they do not care about what they are seeing on Sundays.
I honestly don't think that's it at all. I think that axe-grinding is a reaction to what people have been seeing on Sundays for most of the last decade. Again, as I mentioned in the OP, the Vikings won as many playoff games in the first 3 years under Mike Tice, with no GM and an owner trying run the team cheaply, as they have during the entire Wilf era. What blows my mind is that so many Vikings fans aren't more frustrated. I'm constantly amazed at how defensive people are when they see criticism of Spielman and how optimistic they are about the playoff chances of a team that's won 1 playoff game in 11 years. The Vikings record since Spielman joined the team is 81-79-1. That's mediocre. They've had 4 winning seasons in those 10 years (I threw out 2006 since Spielman joined the team mid-year, after the draft). Over the 5 years since Spielman became GM, their record is a similarly unimpressive 41-38-1 so given all of the above and the overall track record of those involved, shouldn't we expect the frustration we see?
As I've said here and other times the GM issue comes up: As compared to what? How do you rate him? It is easy to say he hasn't hit on all his draft picks. OK great. What is the average hit rate in the NFL? What is really good? I've asked those questions literally dozens of times on here and I never get a clear answer. I've come to view the attitude as this:

Pissed off, don't know why.
I can't speak for anyone else but I know exactly why I'm pissed off. I'm pissed off off because I repeatedly see Spielman make serious blunders and fail to learn from past mistakes. I'm ticked off at the mediocrity. It's better than having a team that's a perpetual bottom feeder so I realize it could be worse but we can look around the league and easily see it could be much better too.

I've tried to answer most of these questions in the past but I'll try again:

The GM should be assessed on how effectively he builds the team and how effectively the team performs. That's the simple version and it's the umbrella answer that covers everything else. The goal is to win so honestly, any comparison can simply be against that standard. How much are they winning? Making the playoffs and winning in the postseason are clearly the team's goals so how effectively have they achieved those goals over the years? To the extent further comparisons needs to be made, I'd say the they should be made to teams that do those things effectively but honestly, the main comparison should be between the Vikings goals and their actual achievements. How often do they fall short? How often do they achieve or surpass their goals?

I'm assuming you were asking about the average hit rate for draft picks. I think that question falls under the umbrella mentioned above. We often deconstruct these things and look at the details around here but the basics are simple. Is the team drafting well enough to meet the basic goals mentioned above? Are they hitting on enough draft picks to build teams that are perennial playoff contenders? Do they win postseason games? If not, that's not good enough, regardless of how many picks they retain compared to other teams or where they stand on a draft hit rate grading curve. It all comes back to the bottom line of building and sustaining a winning team.

What's indicative of good job performance by the GM? Success. Building a winner by using all of the tools in a GM's toolbox: draft, free agency, trades, cap management, scouting, analysis... all of it. It all falls under that big umbrella and whether we look at the last 10 years or limit ourselves to the last 5, the overall results have been mediocre. 4 winning seasons, 1 playoff win. To me, the question shouldn't be why so many fans seem disgruntled or dissatisfied but why more fans don't feel that way. Why do so many people not only seem complacent about the team's mediocrity but passionately defend those responsible for bringing it to us year after year?
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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Great post Jim! :appl:
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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PurpleKoolaid wrote:Great post Jim! :appl:
I second that emotion. I'm one of those who has been a fan so long that I have felt that way almost MY ENTIRE LIFE. Having to defend a multiple SB loser, and before the Bills came along we were the Biggest loser. (They topped us with 4 straight) For some reason I keep having hope that one day the sun will shine on a purple dog's ####. Oh wait, that was the Ravens over a decade ago. Still waiting. ....I have seen it all. Mostly I get pissed at the drafting of players over the years. Dennis Green & co. did a pretty good job and when Billick left that is when the team started to fall back into the abyss. Still a Vikings fan defending my team with fervor still even though I have not been happy myself about it. It seems to me that some fans place blame on fhe players, rightfully so, but it falls on who put them there. For me, I don't care when or who projects a player when or where. Can this guy be a winner day one. Whether or not they have it right away or not, but do they actually have the guts to be a winner. It falls on management to find the right mix of these guys at the right time to keep the machine rolling in the right direction annually. It's not good enough to get halfway up the mountain only to turn back because you have a hangnail. Gotta get there and stay there. No way a easy task but not insurmountable. It can be done of course. It takes a village and of course everyone has to be on the same page throughout the whole process of team building. Spielman has been more reactive than proactive. As soon as he and his staff get out in front of the mediocrity, is when it could all turn around. I see glimpses but not really enough to show off my new toy to my friends.
Jim, that is one of your best posts of great posts. It would be cool if you were a multibillionaire and could buy the Vikings and turn them into a perennial powerhouse. I think you could do a much better job than what has gone on in the past 3 decades. Your eloquence alone merits my comments. So if anyone is paying attention really digest what is being said by Jim, he actually knows what he is talking about. Thank you, good night.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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Thanks for the kind replies. I worked hard on that post!

I wish I was a billionaire too, Steve, for many reasons. :)

You've made that point about Spielman being more reactive than proactive before and I think it's accurate.

I should add that the last question in my post was partly rhetorical. I understand why some people feel more hope and less frustration about the Vikes. It's a natural fan response to defend a team you support and to invest hope that the people and players involved are steering it in the right direction.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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Kudos to all the above....Any fan who thinks going 8-8 or 9-7 is a good thing has settled for being a bottom feeding Carp.

Its been waaaaay too long since we were a top notch team. Being amongst the best is the only acceptable goal/outcome and Spielman has had long enough time and certainly been given a big enough checkbook to have accomplished this goal. He has a generous owner who doesnt micromanage, a phenomenal and patient fan-base, and a great city but he has accomplished nothing but mediocrity.......I have had enough.

Stop fooling yourself, we are NOT on the cusp of greatness.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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Mothman wrote:Thanks for the kind replies. I worked hard on that post!

I wish I was a billionaire too, Steve, for many reasons. :)

You've made that point about Spielman being more reactive than proactive before and I think it's accurate.

I should add that the last question in my post was partly rhetorical. I understand why some people feel more hope and less frustration about the Vikes. It's a natural fan response to defend a team you support and to invest hope that the people and players involved are steering it in the right direction.
You're most welcome. It was a easy summation for me.
I'm sure you would and fandom is probably a few notches below the top of many reasons. As I said before I wanted Spielman to succeed with the Vikings being as he is an Ohio guy and brother of one of the most beloved Buckeye ever. But my disdain for him comes from the draft, especially on offense. I've cursed most of the picks he has made on that side of the ball but have remained optimistic throughout. Too many red flags pop up with me when these picks are made. It seems that when you have a year where there is a glut at a certain position and that position is a glaring need, and you didn't draft a better qb, didn't draft a wr, didnt draft multiple Lineman, when there was a bunch of pretty good ones or wait another year because your staff tells you there will be another boon the next year is what I find questionable. Everyone says the draft is a crapshoot. I have said it myself but the more time passes, I don't buy into that as much. There is a certain basis to rebuilding and I feel that has not been followed by Spielman and that is the main reason we haven't made it to the upper echelon of teams. :govikes:
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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CbusVikesFan wrote:You're most welcome. It was a easy summation for me.
I'm sure you would and fandom is probably a few notches below the top of many reasons.
Yes, but I'll admit, I'd love to own the Vikings. That would be exciting! I'm not sure if I would unwittingly drive them into the ground or make them a powerhouse but I'd certainly be dedicated to winning. I imagine anybody here would...
As I said before I wanted Spielman to succeed with the Vikings being as he is an Ohio guy and brother of one of the most beloved Buckeye ever. But my disdain for him comes from the draft, especially on offense. I've cursed most of the picks he has made on that side of the ball but have remained optimistic throughout. Too many red flags pop up with me when these picks are made. It seems that when you have a year where there is a glut at a certain position and that position is a glaring need, and you didn't draft a better qb, didn't draft a wr, didnt draft multiple Lineman, when there was a bunch of pretty good ones or wait another year because your staff tells you there will be another boon the next year is what I find questionable. Everyone says the draft is a crapshoot. I have said it myself but the more time passes, I don't buy into that as much. There is a certain basis to rebuilding and I feel that has not been followed by Spielman and that is the main reason we haven't made it to the upper echelon of teams.
I agree. Overall, I don't think he's been up to the task strategically, which is why I lack faith in his judgment going forward.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by halfgiz »

Last season was a weird season...from the offense being devastated by injuries, to the Defense not showing up a couple games. Not to mention Norv resigning mid season. There had to be turmoil with the coaching staff.
And then Zimmer with his eye problems.
We could have very easily won 2-3 more games. But things just didn't workout.

I do think that Zimmer has helped Rick with what he is looking for in the draft. It's good they both work together well.
Rick still has made a lot of mistakes, I just hope he learns and grows from them.

Now if we can stay healthy this season, I would like to see what our potential is.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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halfgiz wrote:Last season was a weird season...from the offense being devastated by injuries, to the Defense not showing up a couple games. Not to mention Norv resigning mid season. There had to be turmoil with the coaching staff.
And then Zimmer with his eye problems.
We could have very easily won 2-3 more games. But things just didn't workout.
They could have lost a couple more too. i find many football seasons are like that. They often hinge on a few close games.
I do think that Zimmer has helped Rick with what he is looking for in the draft. It's good they both work together well.
Rick still has made a lot of mistakes, I just hope he learns and grows from them.
I definitely get the impression Zimmer has helped the Vikes identify and draft defensive talent more effectively.
Now if we can stay healthy this season, I would like to see what our potential is.
Well, there's certainly potential there. They could be a playoff team again in 2017.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Mothman wrote: They could have lost a couple more too. i find many football seasons are like that. They often hinge on a few close games.
Actually, last season weird for a different reason -- very few games could have gone either way.

Only one of the Vikings' wins (vs. Green Bay) was close. The rest were relatively easy wins. Arizona was a 6-point win, but that game was never in jeopardy after CP's kick return TD to open the second half. And only three of their losses were close (both Detroit games and the Dallas game).

The Vikings' record ended up right about where it should have ended up. Which sucks.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Actually, last season weird for a different reason -- very few games could have gone either way.

Only one of the Vikings' wins (vs. Green Bay) was close. The rest were relatively easy wins. Arizona was a 6-point win, but that game was never in jeopardy after CP's kick return TD to open the second half. And only three of their losses were close (both Detroit games and the Dallas game).

The Vikings' record ended up right about where it should have ended up. Which sucks.
And there ya have it folks, the reason that these so called geniuses stay where they are as long as they do. expectations. We suck, therefore we suck. :roll:
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: The Vikings' record ended up right about where it should have ended up. Which sucks.
Kapp,

I cannot speak for you, so I would love to hear your opinion, but to me, 8-8 is unacceptable football - despite what happened to this team this past season.

I am of the mentality of owning up to your actions in life. This team was under-prepared for the 2016 season by neglecting an already poor offensive line and neglecting the back-up QB position. It is hard for to solely accept the notion that this team just got 'screwed/jobbed over' in 2016.

It was never hard to see how FRAGILE the back-up QB spot was heading into camp. Again, no one could have predicted what happened to Teddy. However, this is the NFL: Injuries are only a play a way. Moreover, It was never hard to see how FRAGILE the offensive line was heading into the season. The team double-downed on their mistakes and traded away valuable draft assets. I like Sam Bradford, but the jury is still out if he can lead this team to not just a one-and-done Wildcard, but the NFCCG, or even the Super Bowl.

To place emphasis on my stance: As a fan, I will not accept being told to embrace the pyrrhic victories this team is so accustomed to. I can only look for so many metaphorical 'Silver Linings' every offseason. I will no longer tolerate getting called out on my fandom because I don't view things as happy-go-lucky-sunshine and rainbows every year.

I understand it is just a game at the end of the day. I know that better than a lot of people (trust me). Unfortunately, my investment in this team in terms of time, money, and resources is extremely high. Maybe it is time that I take a hard look at myself and simply step-back my investment in this team a little bit. I cannot lie, I was feeling disassociated with this team this past season - more so than I have ever been.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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HardcoreVikesFan wrote: Kapp,

I cannot speak for you, so I would love to hear your opinion, but to me, 8-8 is unacceptable football - despite what happened to this team this past season.

I am of the mentality of owning up to your actions in life. This team was under-prepared for the 2016 season by neglecting an already poor offensive line and neglecting the back-up QB position. It is hard for to solely accept the notion that this team just got 'screwed/jobbed over' in 2016.

It was never hard to see how FRAGILE the back-up QB spot was heading into camp. Again, no one could have predicted what happened to Teddy. However, this is the NFL: Injuries are only a play a way. Moreover, It was never hard to see how FRAGILE the offensive line was heading into the season. The team double-downed on their mistakes and traded away valuable draft assets. I like Sam Bradford, but the jury is still out if he can lead this team to not just a one-and-done Wildcard, but the NFCCG, or even the Super Bowl.

To place emphasis on my stance: As a fan, I will not accept being told to embrace the pyrrhic victories this team is so accustomed to. I can only look for so many metaphorical 'Silver Linings' every offseason. I will no longer tolerate getting called out on my fandom because I don't view things as happy-go-lucky-sunshine and rainbows every year.

I understand it is just a game at the end of the day. I know that better than a lot of people (trust me). Unfortunately, my investment in this team in terms of time, money, and resources is extremely high. Maybe it is time that I take a hard look at myself and simply step-back my investment in this team a little bit. I cannot lie, I was feeling disassociated with this team this past season - more so than I have ever been.
Perfect post. I am sick of moral victories in all MN sponsors, not just the Vikings. The Wild have sucked lately and I get called a bandwagon fan for pointing ting out that they are not playing well.

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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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chicagopurple wrote:Any fan who thinks going 8-8 or 9-7 is a good thing
I have not seen one fan on here say going 8-8 is a GOOD thing. But I will say this is a much better team than you give them credit for. Last year was a giant string of horrible luck no matter what way you put it.

Take a QB, RB, LT, RT, and RG off of any offense in the NFL and I can just about guarantee you that offense probably struggles. From the Patriots down to the Browns, that is a tough hit. You can only have so much depth on your offense or defense before the injuries are finally just too much to get past.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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Pondering Her Percy wrote: I have not seen one fan on here say going 8-8 is a GOOD thing. But I will say this is a much better team than you give them credit for. Last year was a giant string of horrible luck no matter what way you put it.

Take a QB, RB, LT, RT, and RG off of any offense in the NFL and I can just about guarantee you that offense probably struggles. From the Patriots down to the Browns, that is a tough hit. You can only have so much depth on your offense or defense before the injuries are finally just too much to get past.
The injuries were an undeniable hardship that's become an all-to-convenient excuse for bad offense. The argument to the contrary would carry more weight if it wasn't for the fact that the offense has struggled for several years now and started the season struggling again, before most of the injuries.

It just wasn't a very good offense in the first place and it's disappointing to see Spielman gloss over the role his own decisions played in the difficulties the team faced last season.
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