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 Toxic Leadership 
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
So, who hired Norv and Son? Zim or Spielman??


Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:23 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
chicagopurple wrote:
So, who hired Norv and Son? Zim or Spielman??


I'm almost positive Zim was able to pick his own staff

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Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:25 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Either way, if things are going smoothly, Turner waits until the end of the season to leave. Whether he quit or he was forced out, it was a giant issue in the middle of what was shaping up to be a great season. Him leaving wasn't the reason the team went 3-8, but it certainly didn't help. The defense struggled mightily during the slide as well, especially against Indy and GB in Lambeau.

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Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:26 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
I don't think you actually know what you are talking about, but you are entitled to your opinion.[/quote][/quote]

I don't. That's why I am so thankful for geniuses like you.


Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:30 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Him leaving wasn't the reason the team went 3-8, but it certainly didn't help.


Seems to me that most folks think him leaving did help the Vikings by allowing them to fit the system better to the talent. Nonetheless they hold it against him even though his leaving made the team "better". It doesn't make a lot of sense, but I think Turner has just become a convenient scapegoat for vikings fans at this point.


Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:41 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Thanks for the link. Again, I think we have to consider Turner's well-established character, the larger context of his comments and his obvious efforts at diplomacy. In that context, it seems more likely to me that Turner was undermined or otherwise found himself in a situation in which he felt it was better to relieve simmering tensions that were going to be detrimental to the team by leaving rather than remain and let that situation continue to build.

If it's "weak" for a coordinator to resign mid-season, I think it's even weaker to bring in his replacement and undermine what he's trying to do, which appears to be at least part of what happened. Personally, I also suspect his comment about not being able to do the things they needed to get done may have been, in part, a jab at Rick Spielman for failing to provide Turner with the kind of personnel his system clearly needs to be successful. That's speculation though.

Regardless of how we want to perceive Turner's decision to leave, it serves as a string indication that things weren't running smoothly behind the scenes.[/quote]

I agree, it was weak to bring in Turners replacement to put pressure on him to change his ways. Should have just fired him after the 15' season, but I can understand why he didn't. IMO that was one of the bigger mistakes Zimmer & Co. have made. Calling out his players the way he did publicly when they were on there losing skid was another big one. We are going to find out if he's learned from his mistakes and how much they will come back to haunt him in the coming months I am guessing.

To comment on a statement you made in a previous post regarding "dysfunction from the top down" I will agree with you the leadership at the top is weak (Wilf's). They are businessmen, they know how to make money, look no further than there net worth's for proof. However, that doesn't make them good leaders from a purely football perspective. IMO, for us to gauge Spielman and Zimmers performance when they are answering to the Wilf's is difficult.. They are following the Wilf's lead, which to me, is more about making money than it is about winning championships. If they "buck the system" they get fired for sure. They (Wilf's) got what they wanted, a taxpayer subsidized stadium to help build there real estate empire....and now sticking it to the fans with the seat licensing as well....that just further supports the point of money as there top priority. It's been there priority since buying the team, that's no secret. Winning may come, but it hasn't been the top priority of Ownership the same way it is for us fan's.


Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:42 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Just to clarify, the Vikings were not 5-0 when Turner left. They lost two in a row averaging 10ppg in both losses and was ranked #31 in total offense when Turner left.

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Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:30 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
808vikingsfan wrote:
Just to clarify, the Vikings were not 5-0 when Turner left. They lost two in a row averaging 10ppg in both losses and was ranked #31 in total offense when Turner left.


Correct. They were 5-2 with Turner as OC and 3-6 after his departure. Their last two games before he left were the road losses to the Eagles and Bears.


Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:37 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Mothman wrote:
808vikingsfan wrote:
Just to clarify, the Vikings were not 5-0 when Turner left. They lost two in a row averaging 10ppg in both losses and was ranked #31 in total offense when Turner left.


Correct. They were 5-2 with Turner as OC and 3-6 after his departure. Their last two games before he left were the road losses to the Eagles and Bears.

Either way, Christian Ponder sucks.

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Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:51 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
How far fetched would it be to think that this all could have started with drafting TB. I found it mesmerizing that Turner would have drafted him, at all, much less in the first and it all could have started there. A friend of mine told me I would hate Spielman and he destroyed the Dolphins before leaving there. He's a Dolphin fan so I didn't put a lot of thought into it at the time but looking back, I'm not so sure that is not the case.I scratched my head waiting to see something I thought I didn't see at first glance with TB but imho just because someone said he is most nfl ready qb does not necessarily mean he is going to be an above average qb. So that is why it puzzled me when Norv supposedly was in charge of the offense that he would pick him. And move up to do so.
So if I were Norv and he was definitely not my pick that would have started much animosity right away. Then things just kept snowballing from there. Idk, farfetched maybe. Something to think about, yes.
I am glad I got that out, I've been wanting to say it since TB was drafted. I never thought he was 1st round worthy.

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Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:37 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
LMAO at the Ponder comment ...

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Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:20 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
I think it absurd to suggest that this is the Wilfs fault...The guy has opened his massive wallet and spent his own cash to build this team and stadium. He has NOT been a hands on owner who interferes with Football operations. He is not running around on the side lines or making drafting decisions. He has NOT stopped Spielman from recruiting, or retaining veterans. The ONE thing WIlf IS responsible for is Hiring and retaining Spielman and company.....that IS his call.


Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:41 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
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There is something going on, from my perspective. Why would people be leaving a brand-new facility (U.S. Bank Stadium)? They got the best facility in the world. … That’s just not a normal thing to happen.


He's speculating based on the optics of what's going on. He seems to not realize that there's two sides to a negotiation and perhaps maybe the Vikings didn't want some of these players back. He may have a little more insight than the average person since his son was on the team but it's all hearsay.

He points to the downturn but fails to acknowledge all the extraordinary circumstances that led to said downturn. Atlanta was also 5-0 last year and finished 8-8. You can't get more apples/apples than that. Maybe there's a bigger issue, maybe not, but Rhett Ellison's dad isn't exactly the type of person that is going to make me worry unless he has some real evidence. We could be Atlanta for all we know.


Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:13 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Just maybe Rhett wanted to go where he could have an opportunity to play more, The Giants don't have any one special at TE and Ellison will have a chance at the starting job.


Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:03 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Husker Vike wrote:
Just maybe Rhett wanted to go where he could have an opportunity to play more, The Giants don't have any one special at TE and Ellison will have a chance at the starting job.


Yeah, too much is made of the family members comments in the last few years. I don't give a #### what AD's dad or Ellison's grandmother or Teddy's third cousin says. Shut up and let the players play.

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Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:16 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
chicagopurple wrote:
I think it absurd to suggest that this is the Wilfs fault...The guy has opened his massive wallet and spent his own cash to build this team and stadium. He has NOT been a hands on owner who interferes with Football operations. He is not running around on the side lines or making drafting decisions. He has NOT stopped Spielman from recruiting, or retaining veterans. The ONE thing WIlf IS responsible for is Hiring and retaining Spielman and company.....that IS his call.


Best do some fact checking on the stadium funding because you are misinformed.

Ziggy was a part of the "triangle of power" a few years back along with Chilly and Spielman. How do you know he isn't involved in draft vetting or retaining veteran's? I see him in the War room at every draft. How do you know how involved he is in football operations? From what I have seen he's actively involved in football operation's to this day. He's not involved like Jerry Jones, but he's involved and you can believe Spielman and Zimmer are listing to what he has to say. If they didn't, they'd be long gone.

My point is this; Building a winner and building a money maker are not necessarily the same thing. I believe the Viking's have been more of a tool in building the Wilf's empire. I don't see there number one priority as building a champion.

Just my view.


Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:22 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Husker Vike wrote:
Just maybe Rhett wanted to go where he could have an opportunity to play more, The Giants don't have any one special at TE and Ellison will have a chance at the starting job.


Yeah, too much is made of the family members comments in the last few years. I don't give a #### what AD's dad or Ellison's grandmother or Teddy's third cousin says. Shut up and let the players play.


Did anyone hear Paul Allen's comments about meeting the elder Ellison? Daddy asked him what qualified him to announce Vikings games. PA ended by calling him a "blowhard" (I think that was the term), and pretty much wrote off his Toxic Leadership comments.

And while I am at it, Greenway's recent big time supportive comments about the Coach.

Anyhow, these both provide some additional perspective.

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Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:26 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Sorry your son isn't as talented as Rudolph. Move on, guy. The Vikings clearly have.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the comments.


Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:53 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
I'm sorry, who is Riki Ellison and why should I give a damn about what he says?

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Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:27 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
I'd be interested to hear if Peterson's dad has any comment to make on Ellison's dad's comments.


Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:27 am
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Mothman wrote:
808vikingsfan wrote:
Just to clarify, the Vikings were not 5-0 when Turner left. They lost two in a row averaging 10ppg in both losses and was ranked #31 in total offense when Turner left.


Correct. They were 5-2 with Turner as OC and 3-6 after his departure. Their last two games before he left were the road losses to the Eagles and Bears.


I always got the feeling that after the two losses in a row Zimmer got nervous and tried to change the way Turner called games. Turner was under the impression that he would get to have free reign on the offense (which he did) and that stopped happening so he left.

That's all speculation of course, but it seemed reasonable to me.

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Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:15 am
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Alaskan wrote:
Ziggy was a part of the "triangle of power" a few years back along with Chilly and Spielman.


The 3 corners of the "Triangle of Authority" were Brad Childress, Rick Spielman and Rob Brzezinski, who remains the current Vice President of Football Operations. Brzezinski manages the cap and negotiates contracts.


Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:41 am
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Wilf has always made a very concious effort to avoid being a hands on owner in terms of football operations. He knows he is a businessman and a good one. He lets the Fottball guys make the football decisions. He is no Jerry Jones........He has been way too patient with Spielman tho.


Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:46 am
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
JDLon wrote:
I'd be interested to hear if Peterson's dad has any comment to make on Ellison's dad's comments.


Well, I'm someone's dad, and I think ... I'll have another beer.

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Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:20 am
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
PA really did light up riki ellison.


Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:23 am
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Mothman wrote:
Alaskan wrote:
Ziggy was a part of the "triangle of power" a few years back along with Chilly and Spielman.


The 3 corners of the "Triangle of Authority" were Brad Childress, Rick Spielman and Rob Brzezinski, who remains the current Vice President of Football Operations. Brzezinski manages the cap and negotiates contracts.


I stand corrected. Your right. I don't know why I had it in my head that Ziggy was part of the Triangle. I most likely read something to that effect at some point and it stuck. In any event the Wilf's where the ones who implemented this strange power structure.

I researching the "triangle of authority" in a google search....I found a lot of interesting information. It really appears to me that the Wilf's have been fumbling around at managing this organization since they took over as owner's. I would recommend doing a search on it. After doing some research, when someone brings up "toxic leadership", I can relate to what they are trying to say. There has been red flag, after red flag, since the Wilf's bought the team in 2005.


Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:59 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Demi wrote:
Spielman isn't good at this job. (Which has been clear since he was hired.)
And Zimmer is an old school hard headed rub some dirt on it coach who should probably be a defensive coordinator. (or a head coach with a clear focus on defense and not much more..which is what it seemed like he has been)


I agree one hundred percent. And that doesn't sound like a championship combination to me. :steamed:

Alaskan wrote:
I researching the "triangle of authority" in a google search....I found a lot of interesting information. It really appears to me that the Wilf's have been fumbling around at managing this organization since they took over as owner's. I would recommend doing a search on it. After doing some research, when someone brings up "toxic leadership", I can relate to what they are trying to say. There has been red flag, after red flag, since the Wilf's bought the team in 2005.


Correct!


Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:00 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
Spielman helped build a good team when Childress made the calls on who to bring in. I wonder if Childress would make a good GM?

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Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:06 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Spielman helped build a good team when Childress made the calls on who to bring in. I wonder if Childress would make a good GM?


I'm sure Childress thinks he would.

I really don't want any part of that egomaniac again. Too divisive and bull-headed.


Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:09 pm
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Post Re: Toxic Leadership
losperros wrote:
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Spielman helped build a good team when Childress made the calls on who to bring in. I wonder if Childress would make a good GM?


I'm sure Childress thinks he would.

I really don't want any part of that egomaniac again. Too divisive and bull-headed.


Probably my lease favorite member of the Vikings organization ever, with the exception of Darren Sharper.


Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:12 pm
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