Toxic Leadership

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autobon7
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Toxic Leadership

Post by autobon7 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:39 pm

Rhett Ellison’s father says free agents leaving Vikings because of ‘toxic leadership’

http://www.twincities.com/2017/03/12/rh ... eadership/

Not sure what to make of this. What do you guys think?
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Demi
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by Demi » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:14 pm

“That bye week was tipping point,’’ Riki Ellison wrote. “The head coach (Mike Zimmer) and (general manager Rick Spielman) didn’t understand what they had and broke it, (leading to) the departure of Norv Turner, which was the red-flag indicator and the franchise has yet to recover, and the damage (is) still taking its toll. … There is no core offensive line, no leadership on the offense from the front seven, no running back, no No. 1 receiver and a tremendous void of lack of self-drafted developed players that were part of the best run in five years to set and lead the culture.

“Added to this was mentality of physical practices that continued to hurt players on the offensive line and burn out the desire of the defense to play hard when it counted most.’’
Spielman isn't good at this job. (Which has been clear since he was hired.)
And Zimmer is an old school hard headed rub some dirt on it coach who should probably be a defensive coordinator. (or a head coach with a clear focus on defense and not much more..which is what it seemed like he has been)
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S197
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by S197 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:10 pm

Sounds like an angry dad throwing around a lot of speculation. The comment about overly physical practices is interesting. The NFL regulates the amount of physical practices you can have and it's way less than when he played so not sure what that's all about.
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:27 pm

S197 wrote:Sounds like an angry dad throwing around a lot of speculation. The comment about overly physical practices is interesting. The NFL regulates the amount of physical practices you can have and it's way less than when he played so not sure what that's all about.
Typical parent of an athlete these days. I coach two sports, one varsity, and see this crap all the time. I had a parent try and sue our school because of me and my assistant coach (my father) due to "bullying and targeting their child" after we kicked him off the team for his attitude, telling us to F off and walking out of practice. And that wasn't the first run in with the kid. Of course nothing happened of it but that's the type of parents you deal with these days. If they're kid doesn't get what he wants or he isn't treated like gold, they will turn their back on you in a heartbeat. Many of them are out of control. Still some "older school" parents out there but it's quickly fading.
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jackal
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by jackal » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:32 pm

Reminds of Kurt Warners wife going after the media and or fans because of their critical comments about her
husband. Yeah support your kid but it is up to him to make those kind of comments.
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:41 pm

jackal wrote:Reminds of Kurt Warners wife going after the media and or fans because of their critical comments about her
husband. Yeah support your kid but it is up to him to make those kind of comments.
Think about it,, you never saw parents speak out back in the day. Look now, parents like Ellison, APs dad, Brady had to "ban" his dad from talking out about Goodell, and many more
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:24 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Typical parent of an athlete these days. I coach two sports, one varsity, and see this crap all the time. I had a parent try and sue our school because of me and my assistant coach (my father) due to "bullying and targeting their child" after we kicked him off the team for his attitude, telling us to F off and walking out of practice. And that wasn't the first run in with the kid. Of course nothing happened of it but that's the type of parents you deal with these days. If they're kid doesn't get what he wants or he isn't treated like gold, they will turn their back on you in a heartbeat. Many of them are out of control. Still some "older school" parents out there but it's quickly fading.
That sucks. My dad used to coach my baseball teams (20 years ago or so) and every parent liked him, except for one kid's parents who pulled his kid from the team because my dad wouldn't let him pitch (he was one of the worst pitchers I have ever played with... my dad had him try pitching in three games and he ended up with an ERA of infinity... yeah, he was that bad). They said he messed with the kid's style. It was the dumbest thing ever. The next year, the kid's coach did the same thing as my dad and the parents did the same thing. Eventually he was banned from the league (which was hilarious).
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fiestavike
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by fiestavike » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:52 am

I don't know about the particulars of his claims, but there is something rotten in Denmark.
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Mothman
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by Mothman » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:03 am

autobon7 wrote:Rhett Ellison’s father says free agents leaving Vikings because of ‘toxic leadership’

http://www.twincities.com/2017/03/12/rh ... eadership/

Not sure what to make of this. What do you guys think?
I think his comments should be taken seriously, not casually dismissed as the rantings of a frustrated parent. That "frustrated parent' dynamic shouldn't be dismissed either since it's clearly a factor but his comments aren't occurring in a bubble and he was on 3 Super Bowl-winning teams in SF so he probably has some understanding of what good NFL leadership looks like.

There's obviously unrest in the Vikings locker room. Turner leaving midseason was a huge red flag indicating deeper problems. Zimmer's critical, intense style has clearly rubbed some of his players the wrong way. The team's season spiraled out of control after a 5-0 start last year and that was indicative of more than just OL issues, although they were a big factor. It was also indicative of management issues, including drafting and development issues. It may be that the team is dysfunctional from the top (ie; the Wilfs) all the way down. The Vikes certainly haven't proven they have championship-caliber ownership or leadership within the organization.

It's difficult to know exactly what's going on with the team or how seriously to take the comments of a frustrated parent but since there are other indications of leadership issues and since this criticism is coming from a guy with 3 SB rings who, if I remember correctly, actually led at least one of those SB teams in tackles, I don't think we should just write the comments off. Rhett Ellison's been a "good citizen" type of player for the Vikings. His father's comments, combined with Ellison's decision to sign with the Giants, imply that Ellison may have been genuinely frustrated by what he saw going on with the Vikings. Has Rhett Ellison ever struck anybody here as a selfish, egomaniacal player, a prima donna who needs things "just so" to be happy? He certainly doesn't strike me that way. Maybe he had good reasons to be frustrated, and to leave, and maybe he communicated those reasons to his father.

It's something we should consider.
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fiestavike
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by fiestavike » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:17 am

Mothman wrote: There's obviously unrest in the Vikings locker room. Turner leaving midseason was a huge red flag indicating deeper problems.
absolutely.
It's difficult to know exactly what's going on with the team or how seriously to take the comments of a frustrated parent
Also true. He is the same parent who reported that Ellison was moving on prematurely and generally seems to make a lot of racket in the media.

I think his reasoning about players leaving being the indicator that something is wrong with the Vikings leadership doesn't make much sense either. We don't even know that the Vikings tried to retain those players. From the outside in, the players they have let walk haven't been ideal fits for the team's system or are getting older. The one exception being Patterson, who I think could fit as a gadget player in this new offense. Utilizing misdirection could be a key for boosting a suspect pass protection (ala carolina) and the Jet sweep action with Patterson, for example, could be a good way to do that. I could also see them drafting a TE early and going lots of 2 TE for some of the same reasons.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by Mothman » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:49 am

fiestavike wrote:Also true. He is the same parent who reported that Ellison was moving on prematurely and generally seems to make a lot of racket in the media.

I think his reasoning about players leaving being the indicator that something is wrong with the Vikings leadership doesn't make much sense either. We don't even know that the Vikings tried to retain those players. From the outside in, the players they have let walk haven't been ideal fits for the team's system or are getting older.


Good point. I certainly don't think they had an intention of keeping Matt Kalil or Charles Johnson, for example.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by mansquatch » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:17 am

There is no way to validate the accuracy Ellisons' Father's comments. However, it cannot be denied that something went seriously wrong after the bye week. The Vikings can not talk about it all they want, but there were obviously problems. Consider:

Team goes 5-0, including beating 2 eventual NFC playoff teams and last years' NFC champion
BYE WEEK
Team goes 3-8 afterwards
Week 8, team is unable to move the ball against an utterly putrid Bear's team that was ravaged by injuries.
After Bears game, the Offensive Coordinator, a guy with over 30 years of NFL experience resigns.
Team has a chance to rebound against a free falling Colts team and instead plays it's worst Defensive game of the year.

Each of these events is pretty bad by itself. The 3-8 slide and OC resignation mid-season are both extreme events that individual would sound the alarm of MGMT problems. The fact that all four happened in an 11 game stretch tells us something isn't quite right at Winter Park.

We know there is something afoot with Zimmer's leadership style. We've seen too many examples of the team laying an egg in a game they should win to think otherwise. I listed that as one of my three critical things to fix this offseason.

As always, the question is if it can be fixed.

A telling sign will be how a guy like Kalil performs on CAR. If he suddenly reverts to pro-bowl form it will be a strong indication that the coaching regime has big problems.
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fiestavike
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by fiestavike » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:44 am

mansquatch wrote: A telling sign will be how a guy like Kalil performs on CAR. If he suddenly reverts to pro-bowl form it will be a strong indication that the coaching regime has big problems.
I wouldn't agree with that. T in Carolina's offense is probably one of the easiest places to play tackle in the NFL. They use zone read plays on nearly every snap to freeze the defense and Newton's mobility keeps DEs honest.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by MountainGirl » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:50 am

I mostly lurk on here, but I'm a Zimmer fan and I wanted to say something. I think Norv Turner had a lot to do with the problems last year. Things weren't going the way he wanted so he quit, and I believe he caused a lot of division and strife in doing so. It's weak to quit in the middle of the season when you don't get your own way, and that's what he did. I think he fed into a lot of hard feelings and worked against Zimmer in that way. It's not surprising that they lost when he not only left them in the middle of the season, but, in my opinion, caused morale to drop. I think he intentionally wrecked morale on his way out. This is probably not a popular opinion but now that they've moved on from him, his son, and players/staff who were part of the problem, I think the winning starts again.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by fiestavike » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:54 am

MountainGirl wrote: I think Norv Turner had a lot to do with the problems last year. Things weren't going the way he wanted so he quit
Norv Turner has a long history in this league and he doesn't have a reputation as a flake. He didn't just quit because things weren't going the way he wanted.
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