O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

mansquatch
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3836
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
x 117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by mansquatch »

Mothman wrote: Reliable O-line stats are hard to find.

There seems to be an underlying assumption here that the Vikings can just choose to re-sign Kalil on their own favorable terms. However, if the Bengals re-sign 35 year old LT Andrew Whitworth, Kalil could end up being the top free agent left tackle available, or at least one of them. That might be hard for Vikes fans to comprehend but the market is thin because teams rarely let good left tackles get away. It's no longer up to the Vikings alone to decide if they want to "move on" from Kalil. He can decide if he wants to return and he can also decide if he's willing to accept a potential contract offer from the Vikes before free agency begins or if he wants to field offers.

As for potential alternatives in free agency: there's Reiff (who I think is better-suited to the right side) or they could roll the dice on Redskins backup and restricted free agent, Ty Nsekhe, who performed well when asked to start last year.

This brings me back to the question I was asking about Wagner in another thread: how much is too much? If Kalil IS the best option, what should they be willing to pay him and for how long?
An additional reality to this is that the trend in the draft is for OL prospects to be poorly prepared for the NFL game and lacking in a variety of skill sets. That will lead to veterans, even guys like Kalil, to commanding a premium. A possible outcome if they let Kalil go is that they do not find a viable alternative for several years. That would make giving him what would be considered a disproportionately large contract (in terms of the past) more likely to occur.

For those that hate on Kalil, and I get why they do, please understand that the above isn't an endorsement of his performance so much as it is Kalil being lucky to be playing LT in 2017. This is why they paid him his 5th year option last year despite his not playing at level commensurate with the pay. If there is scarcity, even a subpar version of what is scare is worth more than it would be otherwise. There is currently scarcity in the NFL for young, competitive OL.

Perhaps they roll the dice on Kalil one more year, make a run at Reiff to play RT, and grab a 2nd tier FA at Guard?

I suspect that the value of OL in the draft is going to evolve over the next few years. It sounds like the value proposition and risk/reward on those positions are likely to be risky where 15 years ago they were considred among the safest picks.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38292
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 409

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:Perhaps they roll the dice on Kalil one more year, make a run at Reiff to play RT, and grab a 2nd tier FA at Guard?
Perhaps but unless that's the best offer Kalil can get, I'm not sure why he'd take a one year deal. A lot could depend on how the market actually shakes out.
I suspect that the value of OL in the draft is going to evolve over the next few years. It sounds like the value proposition and risk/reward on those positions are likely to be risky where 15 years ago they were considered among the safest picks.
What we might see is something a little more like what we see with QBs, with the top prospects still going at a premium and others sliding a little further back in the draft.

Time will tell. I do think it's important to emphasize that good OL prospects are still available in the draft every year. We may just be seeing a situation where more of those young players will actually need development time rather than being able to step in and play well immediately.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

chicagopurple wrote:I feel it is SPielmans responsibility to find some servicable guys in the draft. They dont need to be future ProBowlers. A few just need to be Healthy (Kalil is not and never will be) baseline players which would be far better then Kalil or Clemmings. Not every draft pick at OL has to be a homerun. If we think there is no way that Spielman and his staff can find a guy to replace this position then he is a failure by definition.
Well of course it's Spielmans responsiblity but it's MUCH harder to find a serviceable LT outside of the first round. Good LT's are about as hard to find as good QBs in the draft. Especially when you have no first round pick. Who knows. There might not be much in those rounds. You never know. Nobody is saying there is "no way" he can find someone. YOU just have to realize that it is way more difficult than you think
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

mansquatch wrote: An additional reality to this is that the trend in the draft is for OL prospects to be poorly prepared for the NFL game and lacking in a variety of skill sets. That will lead to veterans, even guys like Kalil, to commanding a premium. A possible outcome if they let Kalil go is that they do not find a viable alternative for several years. That would make giving him what would be considered a disproportionately large contract (in terms of the past) more likely to occur.

For those that hate on Kalil, and I get why they do, please understand that the above isn't an endorsement of his performance so much as it is Kalil being lucky to be playing LT in 2017. This is why they paid him his 5th year option last year despite his not playing at level commensurate with the pay. If there is scarcity, even a subpar version of what is scare is worth more than it would be otherwise. There is currently scarcity in the NFL for young, competitive OL.

Perhaps they roll the dice on Kalil one more year, make a run at Reiff to play RT, and grab a 2nd tier FA at Guard?

I suspect that the value of OL in the draft is going to evolve over the next few years. It sounds like the value proposition and risk/reward on those positions are likely to be risky where 15 years ago they were considred among the safest picks.
Very good point. I'm not a huge Kalil fan but some on here act like he is worse than Clemmings or something. The guy isnt THAT bad. He's below average but I wouldnt say he is "bad". There really arent a ton of options and you're hoping and praying someone falls to us in the 2nd if we decide to let him walk. So why not resign Kalil to a 2 year deal AND draft someone. That would be the smart thing to do because it would give us insurance if nobody fell to us.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote:We may just be seeing a situation where more of those young players will actually need development time rather than being able to step in and play well immediately.
Which is more reason to hold onto Kalil. So we arent throwing TJ Clemmings out there until our pick develops.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
User avatar
halfgiz
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2289
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:38 pm
x 111

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by halfgiz »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Very good point. I'm not a huge Kalil fan but some on here act like he is worse than Clemmings or something. The guy isnt THAT bad. He's below average but I wouldnt say he is "bad". There really arent a ton of options and you're hoping and praying someone falls to us in the 2nd if we decide to let him walk. So why not resign Kalil to a 2 year deal AND draft someone. That would be the smart thing to do because it would give us insurance if nobody fell to us.
If you sign below average players you aren't going to take that next step.


The Jaguars must decide by 4 PM ET Wednesday whether or not to exercise LT Kelvin Beachum's four-year team option.
IrishViking
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:02 am

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by IrishViking »

Mothman wrote: Reliable O-line stats are hard to find.

There seems to be an underlying assumption here that the Vikings can just choose to re-sign Kalil on their own favorable terms. However, if the Bengals re-sign 35 year old LT Andrew Whitworth, Kalil could end up being the top free agent left tackle available, or at least one of them. That might be hard for Vikes fans to comprehend but the market is thin because teams rarely let good left tackles get away. It's no longer up to the Vikings alone to decide if they want to "move on" from Kalil. He can decide if he wants to return and he can also decide if he's willing to accept a potential contract offer from the Vikes before free agency begins or if he wants to field offers.

As for potential alternatives in free agency: there's Reiff (who I think is better-suited to the right side) or they could roll the dice on Redskins backup and restricted free agent, Ty Nsekhe, who performed well when asked to start last year.

This brings me back to the question I was asking about Wagner in another thread: how much is too much? If Kalil IS the best option, what should they be willing to pay him and for how long?
I cant answer that last question. It depends on so much. I guess to me taking whatever cap space you end up with contact adjustments, if you tie up 75% of it in the line in some way shape or form that is fine with me. Overall I would be happy going into the year will 2-3 million in emergency :hitfan: cap room. Since Oline isnt the ONLY thing on a team I would say a 3-1 resource ratio of Oline to everything else would work best. Just my opinon. If we assume its a little over 20 million in available room and its 8 million to get our picks signed and other minor issues, I would say 8-10 million on the line and 4 million on the rest.

Hopefully we can "fix" APs contract to open up a lot more space.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

halfgiz wrote: If you sign below average players you aren't going to take that next step.


The Jaguars must decide by 4 PM ET Wednesday whether or not to exercise LT Kelvin Beachum's four-year team option.
It's called getting a "stop-gap" due to limited options at that position. When there arent many above average players at that position, then what do you expect them to do?? Sometimes you have to bite the bullet until the following year. RT and RG are easily fixable this year and we can find some very good talent there. However, LT is much tougher. Not saying we cant find one but it's much harder without a first round pick. And for the 10th time, why not sign a stop-gap option (Kalil) AND draft a LT in the 2nd or latest the 3rd. That gives us OPTIONS.

I personally dont want Whitworth because he will probably cost a lot and only has another year or two in him. Let's spend the money on the right side.

If we do what I say would be the best approach, that would give us at LT: Matt Kalil, 2-3 round pick and Rashod Hill. That's leaves us good depth at the position and would force Clemmings out. We can have Hill be the immediate backup on the right side and have Kalil and our pick take the left side.

My ideal OL going into next year would consist of:

LT: Matt Kalil, Ryan Ramcyzk/Garrett Boles (either one in the 2nd round), Rashod Hill
LG: Alex Boone, FA guard or late round pick
C: Joe Berger, Nick Easton
RG: Pat Elfein/Ethan Pocic/Dan Feeney (any of the 3 in the 3rd round), FA guard
RT: Ricky Wagner, Jeremiah Sirles
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38292
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 409

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Mothman »

Pondering Her Percy wrote:Which is more reason to hold onto Kalil. So we arent throwing TJ Clemmings out there until our pick develops.
It's not as if those are their only two options and again, you seem to be operating under the assumption that Kalil will just happily sign a short term, stop-gap deal to remain with the Vikings.
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4959
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
x 395

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by fiestavike »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: My ideal OL going into next year would consist of:

LT: Matt Kalil, Ryan Ramcyzk/Garrett Boles (either one in the 2nd round), Rashod Hill
LG: Alex Boone, FA guard or late round pick
C: Joe Berger, Nick Easton
RG: Pat Elfein/Ethan Pocic/Dan Feeney (any of the 3 in the 3rd round), FA guard
RT: Ricky Wagner, Jeremiah Sirles
Next Year, Alex Boone will be slated to make over 7 million with zero dead money. I don't think it is safe to assume that he is in the team's plans after this season unless he performs much better than he did last year...and given that, if they can get comparable play from a younger/cheaper option, I don't think his job is even secure for this season.
"You like that!"
-- Cap'n Spazz Cousins
User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38292
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 409

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Mothman »

fiestavike wrote: Next Year, Alex Boone will be slated to make over 7 million with zero dead money. I don't think it is safe to assume that he is in the team's plans after this season unless he performs much better than he did last year...and given that, if they can get comparable play from a younger/cheaper option, I don't think his job is even secure for this season.

Good point.
User avatar
halfgiz
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2289
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:38 pm
x 111

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by halfgiz »

fiestavike wrote: Next Year, Alex Boone will be slated to make over 7 million with zero dead money. I don't think it is safe to assume that he is in the team's plans after this season unless he performs much better than he did last year...and given that, if they can get comparable play from a younger/cheaper option, I don't think his job is even secure for this season.
What if Boone got moved to left tackle that is what he played in college. He already stated he was willing to move.
mansquatch
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3836
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
x 117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by mansquatch »

Some more stats to throw into the mix:

Heard on the radio today: typical time it takes a 3rd or later round guy (who doesn't get cut and a significant % get cut) to take meaningful snaps in the NFL is 3 1/2 years. Let that sink in for a bit. Harrison Smith will be 32 years old when a guy we take in this draft is likely to be viable to start.

Guys taken in the 1st and 2nd rounds are not guaranteed starters either. In 2015 only two of something like 15 OL taken cracked the starting line up. I'm sure a guy we take could crack the starting line up, especially at tackle, but that isn't because he is good it is because our Tackles are bad.

Cliff Notes Version: Free Agency is needed for players THIS year.

Boone is willing to move, but it doesn't follow that he'll be competitive. He did sub in for Staley when he went down so at least there is some evidence that he can play that position. But then what do we do at LG (and RG)?

I suspect the fix this year is going to be both expensive and ugly. I also am guessing that a lot of fans are going to hate it.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
User avatar
chicagopurple
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1498
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am
x 88

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by chicagopurple »

it couldnt get any uglier then the warm plate of manure we have been given for an OL so far...the hard part is not the lack of quality its how long this garbage has been allowed to fester. Changes are so overdue and have been so neglected that they ruined a window of opportunity for both the team and epic careers like AP. It never should have come to this. Think back to the last time we had an OL you could be proud of....its depressing to see how far back you need to go and also just how good those guys were compared to the junk we have been subjected to for so many years.

If we start listing the OL alumni that we hold dear, it gets me angry that most of the current guys were even allowed to wear the Purple.
User avatar
halfgiz
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2289
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:38 pm
x 111

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by halfgiz »

mansquatch wrote:Some more stats to throw into the mix:

Heard on the radio today: typical time it takes a 3rd or later round guy (who doesn't get cut and a significant % get cut) to take meaningful snaps in the NFL is 3 1/2 years. Let that sink in for a bit. Harrison Smith will be 32 years old when a guy we take in this draft is likely to be viable to start.

Guys taken in the 1st and 2nd rounds are not guaranteed starters either. In 2015 only two of something like 15 OL taken cracked the starting line up. I'm sure a guy we take could crack the starting line up, especially at tackle, but that isn't because he is good it is because our Tackles are bad.

Cliff Notes Version: Free Agency is needed for players THIS year.

Boone is willing to move, but it doesn't follow that he'll be competitive. He did sub in for Staley when he went down so at least there is some evidence that he can play that position. But then what do we do at LG (and RG)?

I suspect the fix this year is going to be both expensive and ugly. I also am guessing that a lot of fans are going to hate it.
Could they pick up Ron Leary for the LG spot?

Does the Front Office think that a couple of the younger players will step up...Nick Easton, Jeremiah Sirles, TJ Clemmimgs, Willie Beavers, Zac Kerin, Reid Fragel, Marquis Lucas, and Austin Shepherd.
I think we will be lucky if we get more than 2 FA's, Will Rick work a trade?
Post Reply