2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:47 am

VikingPaul73 wrote:It seems like the Rick supporters are saying "Don't blame Rick Spielman for overpaying for mediocre tackles, the Vikings were in a situation where they HAD to overpay for tackles" ......without acknowledging the root cause of why the Vikings were in the situation to begin with......Rick Spielman



I think Moth summed it up perfectly with his post highlighting the 3 categories of Vikings fans on this topic.....Count me in the #3 group.

And I've always said, this is easier said than done. Granted, he hasnt done much on the OL but he's done a boatload on the defensive side of the ball. If the roles were reversed and we had a very good OL, but maybe awful CBs, or awful LBs, or DL, etc. Many fans would be saying the same thing. "Well our CBs are so bad because Rick Spielman has ignored the position for years to focus on building the OL so this is why we're overpaying average CBs in free agency". Could he have been a little more balanced with it? Yeah maybe but at the same time, he's a big reason we have the defense we have. How many teams do you see that are exceptionally good on both sides of the ball. Usually teams with very good defenses or elite defenses have mediocre at best offenses. And vice versa.

I'm not trying to make excuses for the guy, but lets be realistic here. It's pretty tough to compile a legit defense along with a legit offense. You just dont see that very often if ever. There is always weaknesses on teams in the NFL. Ours is the OL. The Packers are their DBs/LBs, the Lions are their RBs, the Bears are everything but their RB (Chicago has also signed a league high 8 free agents this year).

Yes due to not addressing the OL better, we had to pay a lot of money to average tackles. This couldve gone for any positions if we roles were reversed. Either way, it is what it is and it's being assessed. The plan last year, which I didnt think was terrible failed to work regarding the OL. Come the offseason, we had a lot of depth at all positions but a lot of question marks too. I said before I trusted they would assess this OL this year. So far, they've done a pretty solid job and I'm sure there is more to come with FA and the draft.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:37 am

I think Zimmers input had a lot more with getting our D bad on track (and its still isnt all that great). Rick really has done VERY little for this team IMO. If we go 8-8 this year, like I think we will, Rick will be gone. They didnt build that stadium for a few decades more of mediocrity. And thats what Rick is, since his Dolphin days, mediocre.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:07 am

PurpleKoolaid wrote:I think Zimmers input had a lot more with getting our D bad on track (and its still isnt all that great). Rick really has done VERY little for this team IMO. If we go 8-8 this year, like I think we will, Rick will be gone. They didnt build that stadium for a few decades more of mediocrity. And thats what Rick is, since his Dolphin days, mediocre.
Listen, I know you dont like Spielman but to not give him credit for getting what we have on defense is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Yeah Zim obviously is a factor too but to sit there and not give Spielman credit for the players HE drafted on this defense is just asinine. We want to give him credit (or lack there of) for guys like Ponder when he wasn't even officially the GM yet but we dont want to give him credit for drafting guys like Hunter, Kendricks, Barr, Waynes, signing Linval, etc.? Seriously?

But you think we'll go 8-8 with an already improved line, we lost very little in FA, you still dont have a clue who we draft and we havent even had our official schedule come out yet....but your prediction is 8-8.....just because you hate Rick Spielman..... makes sense :confused:

Oh and of course we had to bring up the "Dolphin days" because what happened back in the year 2000 (17 years ago) really matters......
Last edited by Pondering Her Percy on Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by fiestavike » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:11 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Listen, I know you dont like Spielman but to not give him credit for getting what we have on defense is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Yeah Zim obviously is a factor too but to sit there and not give Spielman credit for the players HE drafted on this defense is just asinine. We want to give him credit for guys like Ponder when he wasn't even officially the GM yet but we dont want to give him credit for drafting guys like Hunter, Kendricks, Barr, Waynes, signing Linval, etc.? Seriously?

But you think we'll go 8-8 with an already improved line, lost very little in FA, still dont have a clue who we draft and havent even had our official schedule come out yet....but your prediction is 8-8.....just because you hate Rick Spielman..... :confused:

Oh and of course we had to bring up the "Dolphin days" because what happened back in the year 2000 really matters......

If the Vikings want to stay relevant/competitive for the longterm, they might as well just stick with the Seattle model. Keep investing in defense, find roughly average skill position players on offense, draft a young QB who can do more with less, and hope his leg doesn't fall off this time.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by mansquatch » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:11 pm

SEA won one SB doing that and almost a bagged a 2nd if not for that terrible red zone play call. One might argue that the 2015 Broncos used a similar model given that Manning was in the twilight of his career. 2 of the last 4 SB have been won that way, and as I said above, it was one bad play from bagging 3 out of 4.

The Vikings roster is similarly constructed if it can get it's offense out of the cellar.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Dmizzle0 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:41 pm

Not sure if this was brought up in any of the other forums, but what about Chase Daniels as a backup since Teddy might not be available?
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Dakotavike » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:38 pm

I was wondering about that too. Haven't heard much about a possible backup QB signing other than Foles who is no longer available. Not really sure what their plan is for backup QB.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:45 pm

mansquatch wrote:SEA won one SB doing that and almost a bagged a 2nd if not for that terrible red zone play call. One might argue that the 2015 Broncos used a similar model given that Manning was in the twilight of his career. 2 of the last 4 SB have been won that way, and as I said above, it was one bad play from bagging 3 out of 4.

The Vikings roster is similarly constructed if it can get it's offense out of the cellar.
Exactly. It can be done. No less we lost how many close games this past year? I'm really not worried about this team. And I like what they've done to the offense already. No less we still have the draft. I would like to get some more depth on D though
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:48 pm

Dakotavike wrote:I was wondering about that too. Haven't heard much about a possible backup QB signing other than Foles who is no longer available. Not really sure what their plan is for backup QB.
Yeah me too and the more I've thought about it, my guess is, we're planning on drafting one. With Bradfords age and injury history I can see us doing that. Don't be surprised if this is a offensive-heavy draft. Still need a lot of pieces there. Another RB, backup QB, depth WR, backup TE and all the OL we can get. I'm kind of surprised right now that we haven't signed more depth guys in FA. You could see that coming soon
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:53 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Exactly. It can be done. No less we lost how many close games this past year? I'm really not worried about this team. And I like what they've done to the offense already. No less we still have the draft. I would like to get some more depth on D though
Our roster is not similarly constructed. Our offense is nowhere close to that of Seattle's. Our defense is nowhere as dominant. Did you
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Alaskan » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:27 pm

fiestavike wrote: If the Vikings want to stay relevant/competitive for the longterm, they might as well just stick with the Seattle model. Keep investing in defense, find roughly average skill position players on offense, draft a young QB who can do more with less, and hope his leg doesn't fall off this time.
Bingo! I have said this several times on here. Its not difficult to see that the Seattle model has been the goal they have been shooting for since Zimmer arrived. It doesn't happen in a year or two. There Defense is still young and has progressed well since Zimmer took over. They have the right coaches and the talent to be elite. An average offense like Seattle and Denver had could put them in contention. Have they made the right moves to get them there? We will see. I like the approach. Without an elite QB, its really the only other way to contend. You have to be dominant on D and shut down these high powered passing attacks, which is what is Zimmer's specialty.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by fiestavike » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:40 pm

Alaskan wrote: Bingo! I have said this several times on here. Its not difficult to see that the Seattle model has been the goal they have been shooting for since Zimmer arrived. It doesn't happen in a year or two. There Defense is still young and has progressed well since Zimmer took over. They have the right coaches and the talent to be elite. An average offense like Seattle and Denver had could put them in contention. Have they made the right moves to get them there? We will see. I like the approach. Without an elite QB, its really the only other way to contend. You have to be dominant on D and shut down these high powered passing attacks, which is what is Zimmer's specialty.
Wilson could be "elite" in terms of his ability to do much with so little. Fans like to boil things down until they are so simple they no longer reflect reality.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:33 pm

Mothman wrote: Indeed it does but my response was to mansquatch's implication about "the narrative", not to what you wrote. I responded directly to that and you said you didn't disagree with any of that response.
I'm not attempting to disprove the OL was awful and I didn't suggest the team lacked the capability to throw deep so we did not and do not disagree about that. I didn't attempt to disprove that the team was 12th in 20+ yard passing plays either so why, exactly, is any of the paragraph above being directed at me?
So it goes. It's a public board with an inevitable diversity of opinions. Some of them are frustrating but over the course of the past 12 years, the team has had 5 winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances and just one playoff win. Over that time, the team has sometimes been terrible. That track record certainly provides more than a little reason to be dissatisfied with the front office. The offense has struggled for the majority of that time too so whether the Vikings care about it or not, they haven't done a very good job with it most of the time. Blaming fans for expressing frustration over all of the above is shooting the messenger. The organization has underperformed and there's no disproving that particular fact.
It's very difficult but what is it you want from people here, to be cheerleaders? There's always someone upset that somebody else isn't optimistic enough or is too optimistic. In these free agency threads, we're ALL assessing whether the Vikings are addressing their stated weaknesses and presumably, most of us are also trying to assess if they've done so effectively and if so, how effectively.
It's your choice, no need to flame you for it. Everybody else gets to make a choice too. Personally, I don't choose a default setting of optimistic or pessimistic when it comes to the Vikings. I certainly don't live "under a shroud of doom" when it comes to the team either and I don't think many fans here do.

Again, what do you want? Conformity to a particular point of view? Are people supposed to look at an offense comprised almost entirely of players with a history of being mediocre-to-average in the NFL, led by a coordinator with a similar history, and automatically anticipate greatness? Are we supposed to expect a team that's been disappointing for so long, and that disappointed us once again last year with a serious collapse after a great start, to storm to a Super Bowl?

I think you'll agree that there's a difference between hopes and expectations and I doubt many fans here have given up the former but at least some of us have been conditioned by the Vikings to reign in the latter. If I could have it my way, the Vikes would be seeking their 10th Super Bowl or so this season and we'd all have reason for great optimism. Unfortunately, that's not the case.
Thank you for not flaming. Sorry ... I've been working 70 hours a week and just had my first day off in a month.

I get that we haven't been very good over the past, well, couple of decades. Like you, Jim, I grew up with the Vikings winning the division every single year. This sucks.

But here's the weird thing ... I'm also a Cubs fan (not that weird, I guess, since the Iowa Cubs are right here where I live) and I waited my entire life for last season. Never lost optimism, even though most of the years I've been alive, they've had no shot. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment. Or maybe it's the Cub fan in me that's not afraid to say, "Wait until next year." I don't know.

Leadership is everything, no matter the organization. We saw with Childress that you can overcome a crappy leader, but not for very long. My personal opinion is that we have an excellent head coach in Mike Zimmer who is only going to get better. I honestly believe we're in really good hands. Let's not forget that the man also has had four eye surgeries (or however many it is) and went through a LOT last year in his personal life. He'd never, ever use it as an excuse, so I'll do it for him. The man lost his wife not that long ago, and has had the eye trouble, but he also has legions of players all over the league who would run through a cinder-block wall for him. So for me, Zim is the man to lead us.

On the other hand, I just don't know about Spielman. Sometimes he seems incredibly shrewd, especially on draft day. But some of his moves, shrewd as they seem at the time, haven't worked out. And the O-line has been an issue since the days of Randall McDaniel. Spielman deserves heavy criticism for that. On the other hand, I think his acquisition of Sam Bradford was a great move. Some will disagree, but I thought it was a stroke of genius. We paid a first-round draft choice for Bradford -- what are the odds we could have drafted a quarterback who's as good as Bradford was last year? Especially this draft class, where there may be NO viable quarterback options. It's a mixed bag with Rick.

Overall, I just want the Vikings to have a plan and stick to it, especially on offense. If they're going to go with Pat Shurmur as OC, then they need to go all-in. They need to acquire and draft players who fit what he does. That's why I give the Murray signing a thumbs-up. I think he's the right kind of player for Shurmur's offense, where he might NOT have been the right kind of player for Bill Musgrave's offense in Oakland.

As for AP, it sucks to see him go out this way, but the fact that he hasn't made a single visit to any team tells me that the Vikings were right in cutting ties. As the Patriots have shown over and over, a team is always better off dropping the sentimentality and doing what's necessary.

Finally, Remmers and Reiff aren't all-pros, but they're solid veterans who still have plenty of tread on the tires. To expect the Vikings to go from dumpster fire to an O-line full of Pro Bowlers in a single season is pretty unrealistic. Especially when league average gets us in the playoffs. We just need IMPROVEMENT.

Anyway, that's my take. I don't mind the moves. They're not splashy moves that make headlines. But I think they improve our offense, and with our defense, that might just be good enough, at least to get into the playoffs.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:36 pm

YikesVikes wrote: Our roster is not similarly constructed. Our offense is nowhere close to that of Seattle's. Our defense is nowhere as dominant. Did you
I disagree. Offense, yeah Seattle's was better but this is something guys on here have been talking about. Seattle's offense was middle of the road to a little above average in the main categories:

-19th in the NFL in points (we were 23rd). Not a big difference there.
-12th in yards (we were 28th). Big difference
-10th in passing yards (we were 18th). Not a huge difference
-25th in rushing yards (we were 32nd). Even though both were bad, still not a big difference.

Point being...just like Kapp said, by improving in these areas, we really aren't that far off at all from what Seattle did offensively. We don't need to improve drastically (in rushing, yeah) but overall its not some crazy jump we need to make. I feel like we've made steps in the right direction in doing so already this offseason and still have the draft.


As for defense, Seattle's defense is still very good but to say we are "nowhere near" dominant is false. A lot of guys like to hinge on the Indy and GB losses. We gave up 38 vs. GB. Well so did Seattle. Got killed 38-10. So vs. GB that is a wash. So essentially our defense had one more BAD game than Seattle's did. Not only that, but our defense outranked them in 2 out of 4 of those main categories.

-We were 6th in points (Seattle was 3rd). Not a big difference
-3rd in yards (Seattle was 5th). Not a big difference
-3rd in passing yards (Seattle was 8th). Not a huge difference
-20th in rushing yards (Seattle was 7th). Big difference. However, when you look into it, Seattle allowed 93 yards per game, we allowed 106. And I'm sure if you took Jordan Howards first game out of there, we are very close to Seattle.

Either way, we were 3rd in total defense. Seattle was 7th. Seattle's defense was elite a few years ago but it has tailed off a little compared to what it was and guys are starting to get old, especially in the back end and pass rushers.

Overall, these stats prove that we aren't really that far off of what Seattle has and are better in some areas on the defensive side of the ball. What Kapp, myself and a few others have been saying on here is if we can get better protection from the OL and in turn establish a run game, plus continue great play on defense which I feel we will, this team could be a regular playoff team year after year. No less, we still have the draft to come and can continue to improve on the offensive and defensive side of the ball. Either way, yes Seattles offense is better but by making the right changes, I don't see us being far off them and so far, I feel we've done that. And our defense is definitely up there as one of the best in the league. There is no question about that.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:42 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thank you for not flaming. Sorry ... I've been working 70 hours a week and just had my first day off in a month.

I get that we haven't been very good over the past, well, couple of decades. Like you, Jim, I grew up with the Vikings winning the division every single year. This sucks.

But here's the weird thing ... I'm also a Cubs fan (not that weird, I guess, since the Iowa Cubs are right here where I live) and I waited my entire life for last season. Never lost optimism, even though most of the years I've been alive, they've had no shot. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment. Or maybe it's the Cub fan in me that's not afraid to say, "Wait until next year." I don't know.

Leadership is everything, no matter the organization. We saw with Childress that you can overcome a crappy leader, but not for very long. My personal opinion is that we have an excellent head coach in Mike Zimmer who is only going to get better. I honestly believe we're in really good hands. Let's not forget that the man also has had four eye surgeries (or however many it is) and went through a LOT last year in his personal life. He'd never, ever use it as an excuse, so I'll do it for him. The man lost his wife not that long ago, and has had the eye trouble, but he also has legions of players all over the league who would run through a cinder-block wall for him. So for me, Zim is the man to lead us.

On the other hand, I just don't know about Spielman. Sometimes he seems incredibly shrewd, especially on draft day. But some of his moves, shrewd as they seem at the time, haven't worked out. And the O-line has been an issue since the days of Randall McDaniel. Spielman deserves heavy criticism for that. On the other hand, I think his acquisition of Sam Bradford was a great move. Some will disagree, but I thought it was a stroke of genius. We paid a first-round draft choice for Bradford -- what are the odds we could have drafted a quarterback who's as good as Bradford was last year? Especially this draft class, where there may be NO viable quarterback options. It's a mixed bag with Rick.

Overall, I just want the Vikings to have a plan and stick to it, especially on offense. If they're going to go with Pat Shurmur as OC, then they need to go all-in. They need to acquire and draft players who fit what he does. That's why I give the Murray signing a thumbs-up. I think he's the right kind of player for Shurmur's offense, where he might NOT have been the right kind of player for Bill Musgrave's offense in Oakland.

As for AP, it sucks to see him go out this way, but the fact that he hasn't made a single visit to any team tells me that the Vikings were right in cutting ties. As the Patriots have shown over and over, a team is always better off dropping the sentimentality and doing what's necessary.

Finally, Remmers and Reiff aren't all-pros, but they're solid veterans who still have plenty of tread on the tires. To expect the Vikings to go from dumpster fire to an O-line full of Pro Bowlers in a single season is pretty unrealistic. Especially when league average gets us in the playoffs. We just need IMPROVEMENT.

Anyway, that's my take. I don't mind the moves. They're not splashy moves that make headlines. But I think they improve our offense, and with our defense, that might just be good enough, at least to get into the playoffs.

Great post Kapp :thumbsup:
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