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 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread) 
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Kapp was right about the sarcasm, but I've always had a soft spot for Jim so didn't want to get on him too hard.

The new Tackles ARE average players. No one is out here asserting that these guys are Joe Thomas level players. However, last year we saw guys who were literally the worst in the league. If Reiff and Remmers boost us to average or even slightly below average it will still be a material improvement over what we saw in 2016. (At RT will be better than it has been since maybe 2014.) That is a reason in of itself to be optimistic.

Why do people feel they overpaid? Matt Kalil got paid Joe Thomas levels in Carolina, an absolutely insane contract for a player of his pedigree. In the market they Vikings have to pay market value, so the contracts were richer than maybe we wanted. If we had paid at market we would have gotten no one. That would mean starting TJ Clemmings for a 3rd year and IMO THAT more than just about anything else would constitute GM negligence.

I agree they haven't proven a darn thing yet and that is fair. But there are valid reasons beyond the Kool-Aid to think this team (if healthy) has a chance to make a run at the whole thing.

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Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:01 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
mansquatch wrote:
Kapp was right about the sarcasm, but I've always had a soft spot for Jim so didn't want to get on him too hard.


Aw, shucks. I have a soft spot for you too.

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The new Tackles ARE average players. No one is out here asserting that these guys are Joe Thomas level players. However, last year we saw guys who were literally the worst in the league. If Reiff and Remmers boost us to average or even slightly below average it will still be a material improvement over what we saw in 2016. (At RT will be better than it has been since maybe 2014.) That is a reason in of itself to be optimistic.


It's certainly a reason to expect improved performance at the position.

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Why do people feel they overpaid? Matt Kalil got paid Joe Thomas levels in Carolina, an absolutely insane contract for a player of his pedigree. In the market they Vikings have to pay market value, so the contracts were richer than maybe we wanted. If we had paid at market we would have gotten no one. That would mean starting TJ Clemmings for a 3rd year and IMO THAT more than just about anything else would constitute GM negligence.


You kind of answered your own question there. The free agent market drives up the price at positions where demand is greater than supply so I suppose whether they overpaid or not depends on we look at it. If we look at the going rate for starting free agent tackles in their late 20s, they basically paid market price. On the other hand, Reiff's contract is bigger than that of Kalil or Thomas. He's now the 8th highest-paid left tackle in the NFL and I think we can probably agree that Reiff is not the 8th best tackle in the NFL. In that sense, the Vikes overpaid.

The same idea applies to Remmers. $6 million a year seems steep for him, at least to me. However, I understand that right tackles aren't cheap. Overall, on paper, the Vikes paid almost $89 million for Remmers and Reiff (about $37 million guaranteed). Doesn't that sound high?

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I agree they haven't proven a darn thing yet and that is fair. But there are valid reasons beyond the Kool-Aid to think this team (if healthy) has a chance to make a run at the whole thing.


There are... I just don't think it's such a given that the board needs to become divided about it. There are valid reasons to doubt they'll make a run like that too and nobody knows what will happen so I think we should all be able to respect where each fan's expectations fall within that range of possibilities.


Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:23 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
The way the cap works you can't look at it in absolute dollars. If you do, everyone signed will be one of the highest paid in the league, it's the nature of how deals are structured. When is the last time someone who was signed in the first couple days of free agency did someone say, "Wow that was an amazing deal!" Almost never.

Contracts are front heavy so players starting a new contract are always paid more than a guy in the middle or ending of their contract. To me, the apples/apples way to compare is to compare a signing to other signings in the same year. Otherwise the stats will always be skewed.


Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:39 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
S197 wrote:
The way the cap works you can't look at it in absolute dollars. If you do, everyone signed will be one of the highest paid in the league, it's the nature of how deals are structured.


That's why I mentioned the guaranteed money. I didn't go into further detail because I didn't want write an essay on the subject but I'm aware of the details.

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Contracts are front heavy so players starting a new contract are always paid more than a guy in the middle or ending of their contract. To me, the apples/apples way to compare is to compare a signing to other signings in the same year. Otherwise the stats will always be skewed.


That's a fair point. Reiff got more than any tackle signed this year, although Okung will earn a higher average per season. The only right tackle who received more than Remmers is Wagner, who will make considerably more. However, Remmers is now the 10th highest-paid RT in the league.

By pretty much any standard, the Vikes paid premium prices for these two players.


Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:52 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
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That's a fair point. Reiff got more than any tackle signed this year, although Okung will earn a higher average per season. The only right tackle who received more than Remmers is Wagner, who will make considerably more. However, Remmers is now the 10th highest-paid RT in the league.

By pretty much any standard, the Vikes paid premium prices for these two players.



There is a league wide shortage on LT and RT's and generally on OL in general.
I don't mind the Vikings grabbing guys that they really need.. not to mention Kalil
got paid huge money last year to sit on the bench and so did Peterson pretty much.

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Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:09 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Mothman wrote:
S197 wrote:
The way the cap works you can't look at it in absolute dollars. If you do, everyone signed will be one of the highest paid in the league, it's the nature of how deals are structured.


That's why I mentioned the guaranteed money. I didn't go into further detail because I didn't want write an essay on the subject but I'm aware of the details.

Quote:
Contracts are front heavy so players starting a new contract are always paid more than a guy in the middle or ending of their contract. To me, the apples/apples way to compare is to compare a signing to other signings in the same year. Otherwise the stats will always be skewed.


That's a fair point. Reiff got more than any tackle signed this year, although Okung will earn a higher average per season. The only right tackle who received more than Remmers is Wagner, who will make considerably more. However, Remmers is now the 10th highest-paid RT in the league.

By pretty much any standard, the Vikes paid premium prices for these two players.


10th highest isn't too bad to me as most free agents get bumped to the top of the list. As an example, Harrison Smith was the highest paid safety, now it's Eric Berry, next year it will be someone else. It's the nature of an inflationary cap. Also, isn't Remmers deal basically year to year? That's another big factor.

My point is anytime you're signing a FA starter, it's almost always perceived as paying a premium. It's very very rare for someone to say "what a steal!" when talking about a significant FA signing. It's almost always the opposite. I'm not disagreeing that the Vikings paid a lot for these players, just that paying a lot for players is the norm.


Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:51 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
S197 wrote:
10th highest isn't too bad to me as most free agents get bumped to the top of the list. As an example, Harrison Smith was the highest paid safety, now it's Eric Berry, next year it will be someone else. It's the nature of an inflationary cap. Also, isn't Remmers deal basically year to year? That's another big factor.


It is but, for example, if he doesn't pan out after the first year, that will mean the Vikes paid $10.5 million for one year of Mike Remmers at tackle.

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My point is anytime you're signing a FA starter, it's almost always perceived as paying a premium. It's very very rare for someone to say "what a steal!" when talking about a significant FA signing. It's almost always the opposite. I'm not disagreeing that the Vikings paid a lot for these players, just that paying a lot for players is the norm.


I agree. It's the norm. I'm simply responding to Mansquatch's question about why people think the Vikes overpaid for their two new tackles. People think they overpaid because inflationary cap or not, the price they paid isn't commensurate with the talent they're getting in return, which is why they shouldn't have put themselves in a desperate position in the first place. However, viewed purely in terms of what it costs to sign free agents, they paid market price.


Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:09 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
If the Vikings didn't pay them this type of money, someone else would have !
Then we would be complaining about how we missed on everything !


Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:22 am
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
IIsweet wrote:
If the Vikings didn't pay them this type of money, someone else would have !
Then we would be complaining about how we missed on everything !


It's just a discussion about the price of the two linemen. Saying the Vikes overpaid isn't the same as complaining that they shouldn't have signed them at all. It's simply saying they overpaid, which they did. That's a common result when relying on free agency to fill important positions and it's why teams prefer to build through the draft. Free agency tends to involve overpaying for players.


Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:40 am
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
The Vikings got themselves into a bine at both tackle spots. I think Rick was planning on signing Kalil to a reasonable contract. And when Kalil signed that big contract with the Panthers it probably messed Ricks plan up.

We really needed a LT and Rick paid the price.
Now the big question in my mind is...what's Sparano going to do with the line this year. Hopefully with better players he will get something out of them.
Kind of anxious to see what running back we take in draft.
Will we take a TE in the draft, or a WR or maybe both.

I still think our first pick will be a defensive player.


Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:49 am
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
It seems like the Rick supporters are saying "Don't blame Rick Spielman for overpaying for mediocre tackles, the Vikings were in a situation where they HAD to overpay for tackles" ......without acknowledging the root cause of why the Vikings were in the situation to begin with......Rick Spielman



I think Moth summed it up perfectly with his post highlighting the 3 categories of Vikings fans on this topic.....Count me in the #3 group.


Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:05 am
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
VikingPaul73 wrote:
It seems like the Rick supporters are saying "Don't blame Rick Spielman for overpaying for mediocre tackles, the Vikings were in a situation where they HAD to overpay for tackles" ......without acknowledging the root cause of why the Vikings were in the situation to begin with......Rick Spielman



I think Moth summed it up perfectly with his post highlighting the 3 categories of Vikings fans on this topic.....Count me in the #3 group.

Agreed. Rick has not adequately addressed the OL since he started here. Out best line since we drafted AD was when we signed Hutchinson, and iirc that was before Spielman.

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Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:33 am
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
So since Spielman came in Minnesota, he never made an effort to improve the oline ? (I'm a new fan ;))
If that's true, he should wake up one day because you can't go really far if your QB has no protection.


Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:51 am
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
I think saying Spielman never tried to improve our offensive line is a bit of a misnomer. I think it's fairer to say the attempts at fixing the line haven't panned out.


Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:13 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Rhodes Closed wrote:
I think saying Spielman never tried to improve our offensive line is a bit of a misnomer. I think it's fairer to say the attempts at fixing the line haven't panned out.



I'd depict it thus: his attempts have been lazy and negligent, like putting a Snoopy bandaid on a open wound that needs stitches.


Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:21 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Texas Vike wrote:
Rhodes Closed wrote:
I think saying Spielman never tried to improve our offensive line is a bit of a misnomer. I think it's fairer to say the attempts at fixing the line haven't panned out.



I'd depict it thus: his attempts have been lazy and negligent, like putting a Snoopy bandaid on a open wound that needs stitches.

I'd agree with that but also say all the lineman we drafted looked serviceable to good before injury struck, which I think has been our major problem over the years (aside from not getting the best linemen when they were available).


Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:25 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Quote:
I think saying Spielman never tried to improve our offensive line is a bit of a misnomer. I think it's fairer to say the attempts at fixing the line haven't panned out.



agreed I think my biggest problem with Spielman is his ability to admit a mistake and move on from a player.



AKA Matt Kalil

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Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:44 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Rhodes Closed wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
Rhodes Closed wrote:
I think saying Spielman never tried to improve our offensive line is a bit of a misnomer. I think it's fairer to say the attempts at fixing the line haven't panned out.



I'd depict it thus: his attempts have been lazy and negligent, like putting a Snoopy bandaid on a open wound that needs stitches.

I'd agree with that but also say all the lineman we drafted looked serviceable to good before injury struck, which I think has been our major problem over the years (aside from not getting the best linemen when they were available).



That's fair. There has been some bad luck involved, but there is certainly some blame to assume on Spielman's part. The moves we've made in FA are an OK start, but we need to invest some draft picks into OL too.


Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:57 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Spielman has the type of mindset that does not work in the NFL.
Draft the freakish athlete and get the cheapest OL you can, late rd draft guys. Hope that they pan out.
Problem is that he misses waaaaay too often.
Maybe he's good at the business aspect f his job, but player personnel.... He SUX !!!


Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:50 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Texas Vike wrote:
Rhodes Closed wrote:
I'd agree with that but also say all the lineman we drafted looked serviceable to good before injury struck, which I think has been our major problem over the years (aside from not getting the best linemen when they were available).


That's fair. There has been some bad luck involved, but there is certainly some blame to assume on Spielman's part. The moves we've made in FA are an OK start, but we need to invest some draft picks into OL too.


Agreed. The Vikings should have also grabbed some higher OL picks the last two drafts.

Build through the draft, supplement through free agency.


Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:51 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Rhodes Closed wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
Rhodes Closed wrote:
I think saying Spielman never tried to improve our offensive line is a bit of a misnomer. I think it's fairer to say the attempts at fixing the line haven't panned out.



I'd depict it thus: his attempts have been lazy and negligent, like putting a Snoopy bandaid on a open wound that needs stitches.

I'd agree with that but also say all the lineman we drafted looked serviceable to good before injury struck, which I think has been our major problem over the years (aside from not getting the best linemen when they were available).


All?? I would say kalil looked good until the injury bug hit.

All of the other 4th- 7th rounders Rick has drafted have just been BAD.


Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:59 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
VikingPaul73 wrote:
All?? I would say kalil looked good until the injury bug hit.

All of the other 4th- 7th rounders Rick has drafted have just been BAD.


Seriously: Jeff Baca, David Yankey, Willie Beavers (still to this day makes ZERO sense to me), Tyrus Thompson, Austin Shepherd, Fusco, DeMarcus Love, Travis Bond, T.J. Clemmings (does this need explanation?).

Let's not forget that abysmal draft in 2011 in totality. Only saving grace from that draft was Kyle Rudolph.

Spielman has been far from a great GM.

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Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
HardcoreVikesFan wrote:
VikingPaul73 wrote:
All?? I would say kalil looked good until the injury bug hit.

All of the other 4th- 7th rounders Rick has drafted have just been BAD.


Seriously: Jeff Baca, David Yankey, Willie Beavers (still to this day makes ZERO sense to me), Tyrus Thompson, Austin Shepherd, Fusco, DeMarcus Love, Travis Bond, T.J. Clemmings (does this need explanation?).


No, it doesn't but I will give him credit for drafting John Sullivan in R6 of the 2008 draft. That pick worked out well for the Vikes.


Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:35 am
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Mothman wrote:
HardcoreVikesFan wrote:
VikingPaul73 wrote:
All?? I would say kalil looked good until the injury bug hit.

All of the other 4th- 7th rounders Rick has drafted have just been BAD.


Seriously: Jeff Baca, David Yankey, Willie Beavers (still to this day makes ZERO sense to me), Tyrus Thompson, Austin Shepherd, Fusco, DeMarcus Love, Travis Bond, T.J. Clemmings (does this need explanation?).


No, it doesn't but I will give him credit for drafting John Sullivan in R6 of the 2008 draft. That pick worked out well for the Vikes.


meh. I like Sullivan, but he has always been wildly overrated by Vikings fans. He's always been small and underpowered.


Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:52 am
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Mothman wrote:
No, it doesn't but I will give him credit for drafting John Sullivan in R6 of the 2008 draft. That pick worked out well for the Vikes.


True, but remember Jim: Sullivan was flat out bad until roughly 2011. Sullivan was anointed after 2008 and we forced out Matt Birk because of that. I cannot say for certain, but if Birk stayed on for 2009, there is a big chance we are in the Super Bowl.

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Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:20 am
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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
fiestavike wrote:
meh. I like Sullivan, but he has always been wildly overrated by Vikings fans. He's always been small and underpowered.


There's a difference between an overrated player with shortcomings and a bad player. Sullivan has been a good player over the years, just not without flaws and (in my opinion anyway) not as good as his predecessor at the position. He has certainly been much better than the other players on that list above. I think it would be a huge stretch to call the 6th round pick spent on Sullivan a "miss".


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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
HardcoreVikesFan wrote:
Mothman wrote:
No, it doesn't but I will give him credit for drafting John Sullivan in R6 of the 2008 draft. That pick worked out well for the Vikes.


True, but remember Jim: Sullivan was flat out bad until roughly 2011. Sullivan was anointed after 2008 and we forced out Matt Birk because of that. I cannot say for certain, but if Birk stayed on for 2009, there is a big chance we are in the Super Bowl.



No argument here.


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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
Sullivan was very overrated. I was never a big fan of his. I think Berger has been a much better center than sully ever was.

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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Sullivan was very overrated. I was never a big fan of his. I think Berger has been a much better center than sully ever was.


I think Sullivan is the superior blocker of the two and from what I've read, he was better at making the line calls too. As far as I'm concerned, he started over Berger for years for good reason.


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Post Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)
The fair criticism of Spielman in this FA is the fact that he found himself needing to sign two FA tackles in the first place.

I actually think the Viking handled FA pretty well. Okung and Kalil were far overpaid for their overall skill on the field, especially when considering their injury history. Wentworth will perform for the Rams until age catches him, so not a bad signing, but a limited one. In the case of the Vikings we signed two guys who have time in front of them. So if they do pan out, we'll reap more benefit.

Whether they pan out is far from a guarantee. I think Reiff should be a solid upgrade, he has shown solid durability over his career. Remmers I'm less certain about. Regardless, they are superior to what we fielded in 2016 even if they are not elite within the NFL. That alone bodes well for the Vikings.

I have to admit I'm rather intrigued by the Latavius Murray signing. It really sounds like he'll be a great fit for us. Time will tell there.

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