2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

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Mothman
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Mothman » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:07 pm

autobon7 wrote:
Not really sure I agree that he did not make an impact the way the writer of the article tries to play it. He does need to have another strong season to kinda prove he belongs in the impact category but I felt he had a great season.[/quote]


Keep in mind the article is from November 9th. I think it's a pretty fair assessment. At that point, 9 games into the season, Thielen had 29 catches for 432 yards and 1 TD, an average of 3.2 catches for 48 yards per game.

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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Mothman » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:27 pm

Cliff wrote: For a rookie, I'm personally not disappointed with that. It's not abnormal for a rookie, even a 1st rounder, to sit on the bench
You weren't hoping the Vikings would get more than one catch for 15 yards out of their first round draft pick? I don't understand how that's not a disappointing every Vikings fan or why categorizing his season as a disappointment is a controversial statement. :confused:
I think when they drafted him they didn't expect to have a decent WR corps. If they could do it over with hindsight I'm not sure they would have taken a WR at all (regardless of player). It's just not as big of a need as they probably thought going into last year's draft.

I think it's fair to think that he wasn't "up to snuff" enough to break into the starting lineup but I'm in the camp of sitting rookies (that aren't obviously superstars starting in the first preseason - like Peterson) rather than have them go out and lose confidence or take a step back. That is, if you can afford to and in the Vikings case last year I think they could.
Perhaps but I think the point is he made it an easy choice. and that's disappointing, especially in an offense that only scored 29 TDs all year (20 passing). I'm not arguing they should have forced him into the lineup but they could have used help, especially in the red zone.
Being able to keep 1st round rookies on the bench can either be a good thing because it means there's enough talent in front of them to do so, or bad because it means that the player is just doing awful. I see no reason to draw either conclusion.
I think there's plenty of reason to draw the latter conclusion, Cliff. He didn't look good in the playing time he had. There were reports he was struggling and neither thielen or Patterson spent the entire season playing the kind of "lights out" football that should keep an impressive rookie off the field.

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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:49 pm

Mothman wrote: While Thielen’s rise this season has been worthy of respect, he’s been more of a serviceable utility wideout than an impact second receiver who can open up the offense and take pressure off Stefon Diggs.
I personally think Adam Thielen has emerged as far more than even an impact second receiver.

Over the last third of the season, he was clearly the team's Number One.

Just an aside.

And Treadwell was a disappointment to me, rookie wideout or not. But then again, I didn't really want the Vikings to draft him. Nonetheless, I hope he turns into a superstar.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Cliff » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:09 am

Mothman wrote:You weren't hoping the Vikings would get more than one catch for 15 yards out of their first round draft pick? I don't understand how that's not a disappointing every Vikings fan or why categorizing his season as a disappointment is a controversial statement. :confused:
Not really. Would I have rather him come out and be great immediately? Of course. I guess I just don't necessarily expect anything out of a rookie especially with this coaching staff who seems to prefer holding a player back until they feel they're "ready". That might be a game, it might be a season. Disappointment is based on expectation and mine were very low to begin with.

Being disappointed is a feeling and it's not controversial at all. I can easily see why someone feels that way, I just don't.
Perhaps but I think the point is he made it an easy choice. and that's disappointing, especially in an offense that only scored 29 TDs all year (20 passing). I'm not arguing they should have forced him into the lineup but they could have used help, especially in the red zone.
I don't know if he made it an easy choice or not. They could have used help in the red zone but they felt the players on the field were better than equipped to handle it than the rookie. I don't see the problem with that.
I think there's plenty of reason to draw the latter conclusion, Cliff. He didn't look good in the playing time he had. There were reports he was struggling and neither thielen or Patterson spent the entire season playing the kind of "lights out" football that should keep an impressive rookie off the field.
He didn't play well in the one game he saw significant playing time. That's true. To me that shows that the coaching staff was right to keep him on the bench. It's a pretty small sample size to determine much about him though. Other than he had a bad game as a rookie.

I think the receivers were playing well enough in an offense that was badly broken and didn't give them much time to get open to keep a rookie on the bench. I don't think that necessarily speaks to Treadwell's future any more than a 1st round rookie QB sitting behind an adequate, if unimpressive, starter.
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Mothman » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:49 am

Cliff wrote:Not really. Would I have rather him come out and be great immediately? Of course. I guess I just don't necessarily expect anything out of a rookie especially with this coaching staff who seems to prefer holding a player back until they feel they're "ready". That might be a game, it might be a season. Disappointment is based on expectation and mine were very low to begin with.
Mine weren't high but it would have been nice to see at least a 30 catch, 400 yard season out of Treadwell, something to indicate he might one day prove worthy of the investment.
Being disappointed is a feeling and it's not controversial at all. I can easily see why someone feels that way, I just don't.


Fair enough.
I don't know if he made it an easy choice or not. They could have used help in the red zone but they felt the players on the field were better than equipped to handle it than the rookie. I don't see the problem with that.
The problem lies right there in what you just stated. They could have used help in the red zone and they didn't feel he was better-equipped to provide it than the players they were using... and with the players they were using, they were in a position where they could have used help in the red zone. :)

In other words, last season, he wasn't able to provide any of the help he was drafted to provide.
He didn't play well in the one game he saw significant playing time. That's true. To me that shows that the coaching staff was right to keep him on the bench.
But the decision to keep him on the bench isn't the issue. It's the fact that apparently, he belonged on the bench.
I think the receivers were playing well enough in an offense that was badly broken and didn't give them much time to get open to keep a rookie on the bench. I don't think that necessarily speaks to Treadwell's future any more than a 1st round rookie QB sitting behind an adequate, if unimpressive, starter.
I'm not saying it necessarily speaks to his future one way or another, although it should at least raise a little concern about it. As I wrote upthread, he could still turn out to be a good receiver but he's off to a bad start. I can't imagine either he or the Vikings envisioned a 1 catch season for him when he was selected last April.

Hopefully, he'll take a big step forward in 2017.

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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:01 am

Cliff wrote: For a rookie, I'm personally not disappointed with that. It's not abnormal for a rookie, even a 1st rounder, to sit on the bench.

I think when they drafted him they didn't expect to have a decent WR corps. If they could do it over with hindsight I'm not sure they would have taken a WR at all (regardless of player). It's just not as big of a need as they probably thought going into last year's draft.

I think it's fair to think that he wasn't "up to snuff" enough to break into the starting lineup but I'm in the camp of sitting rookies (that aren't obviously superstars starting in the first preseason - like Peterson) rather than have them go out and lose confidence or take a step back. That is, if you can afford to and in the Vikings case last year I think they could.

Being able to keep 1st round rookies on the bench can either be a good thing because it means there's enough talent in front of them to do so, or bad because it means that the player is just doing awful. I see no reason to draw either conclusion. I think both are equally likely and neither is confirmed.
Exactly. Good post. We didnt need to force him into action no less he had guys ahead of him performing at a high level
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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by autobon7 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:38 am

Mothman wrote: Not really sure I agree that he did not make an impact the way the writer of the article tries to play it. He does need to have another strong season to kinda prove he belongs in the impact category but I felt he had a great season.

Keep in mind the article is from November 9th. I think it's a pretty fair assessment. At that point, 9 games into the season, Thielen had 29 catches for 432 yards and 1 TD, an average of 3.2 catches for 48 yards per game.[/quote]


Thanks for pointing that out Jim.....I didn't catch that so it totally makes sense.

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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Mothman » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:58 am

autobon7 wrote:Thanks for pointing that out Jim.....I didn't catch that so it totally makes sense.
You're welcome. :)

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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by losperros » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:05 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:I personally think Adam Thielen has emerged as far more than even an impact second receiver.

Over the last third of the season, he was clearly the team's Number One.

Just an aside.

And Treadwell was a disappointment to me, rookie wideout or not. But then again, I didn't really want the Vikings to draft him. Nonetheless, I hope he turns into a superstar.
I have the same view about Thielen. In fact, I don't think the Vikings need to acquire a go-to receiver from the draft or free agency. Thielen already is one. And I think he's proven he can go deep when needed, too.

I wish Treadwell would have been utilized in the red zone last season. Wasn't that a big reason why the team drafted him?

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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by PurpleMustReign » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:11 pm

Thielen has only had one year where he was even relevant. I love his work ethic, but let's see how well he does now that defenses will be keying on him


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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Mothman » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:43 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:Thielen has only had one year where he was even relevant. I love his work ethic, but let's see how well he does now that defenses will be keying on him
I'm viewing him the same way. He looks like a solid starter at this point, which is great considering he had to work his way up the depth chart from the practice squad. He played well last year but his terrific game at Green Bay late in the season was more or less an outlier. It gave his stat line a huge boost (did it boost expectations too?). Stats aren't everything but they do provide indicators of performance and impact.

Thielen had 12 catches for 202 yards and 2 TDs @Green Bay. That's a fantastic day. He had 2 other 100+ yard performances last year, one against Jacksonville (4 catches, 101 yards) and one against Houston in week 5 (7 catches, 127 yards, 1 TD).

For the season, he had 69 catches for 967 yards and 5 TDs, an average of 4.3 catches and 60 yards a game. That's a good season but if we look at his production without the big outlier, we get 57 catches over 15 games for 765 yards. That averages out to 3.8 catches for 51 yards per game in a pass-heavy offense.

At this point, assuming he can at least sustain that level of production, he looks a lot more like a solid "#2" receiver to me than the kind of receiver defenses fret over and an offense can lean on week after week.

He'll be a player to watch in 2017. Can he keep raising his game?

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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by S197 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:38 pm

The Vikings will have to get production via diversification, there's no Antonio Brown or Julio Jones on this team. But as a unit, I think Diggs, Thielen, Rudolph, and hopefully Treadwell can be productive enough. Murray is also really good catching the ball out of the backfield. I think they look for a returner/slot receiver in the draft.

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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Mothman » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:16 pm

S197 wrote:The Vikings will have to get production via diversification, there's no Antonio Brown or Julio Jones on this team.
Agreed. They'll have to spread it around but sometimes that can be very effective.

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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by fiestavike » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:09 am

Mothman wrote: Agreed. They'll have to spread it around but sometimes that can be very effective.
I think Diggs will emerge as a legitimate #1 WR this year if he can stay healthy.

I also think Thielen is a legit, really good WR2. He is technically very proficient, a great route runner and has good hands. I think he's comparable to amari cooper, but better hands.

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Re: 2017 Vikings Free Agency Thread (Discussion Thread)

Post by Texas Vike » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:58 am

What's everyone's take on Jarius Wright and his role for us going forward? His season was a complete mystery to me. Ostensibly, he is a perfect slot guy and great compliment to Diggs and Thielen. We paid him like we thought he could produce big for us, my guess is he was dinged up more than they let on. I personally think Jarius is underrated and an under exploited resource.

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